It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Steven Hawking backs Christian Theology

page: 3
4
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:44 PM
link   

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 

I've seen all those arguments before.
Briefly;
Jesus was both God and man.
As man he was not equal to God.
As God he was equal to God.
But this is all off-topic, so we must not continue this dicussion.
Let's talk about Creation, yes?



Well yes let's keep this on topic. I'm going to U2U you so we can chat!
Second line.




posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:48 PM
link   
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 



Well that means God is everywhere. Everything is God's to began with and he can give more.


Thank you for your resonse.

I can accept that. It does not require God to be nothing. I still do not see how this relates to how God is the nothing Hawking was referring to.

Also


Shouldn't you have to look at the OT to know the beginning? Not bashing Christianity. Christians view the Torah different then the Jews. So they will interpret it different. If you want to U2U me I can go into detail of Judaism and Christianity differences.


I am following what I know of how Christianity views the Old Testament, since this is what the thread was directed at. Most main stream Christians also believe this, so I am viewing it from that point of view.

If there is something I am missing that a Jewish view would give me towards how God is nothing, than I would appreciate learning it so I can better revise my opinion on the subject.

Kind regards



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:49 PM
link   
reply to post by Hitotsumami
 


Alright I can respect that! Remember various Christians interpret the OT different so you're going to be confused soon! lol



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:50 PM
link   
reply to post by ben91069
 



Yes. God is the male and matter is the female. The two become a unity of all. Without the spirit of God the material world could not exist. The two halves make one whole and everything within is the life of eternity between them. That is the reality of the heavens and it is infinite.


My question was why does the universe require a God if it is infinite.

The first post of the thread states that the spirit, or God, is nothing, and that is what I have been arguing against. I cannot quite understand how your response answered the above question, or the original proposal of the thread.

Can you explain further, if you are able?

Kind regards



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:53 PM
link   
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 



Alright I can respect that! Remember various Christians interpret the OT different so you're going to be confused soon! lol


Thank you for the response.

I am viewing only the interpretation of the original creation, since that is what this thread is about.

From my own perspective, the explanation I have heard most is that God created the universe. That is all I am currently able to go on, so that is all I will go on, until I receive other interpretations to better understand.

Kind regards



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:54 PM
link   

Originally posted by Hitotsumami
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 



Alright I can respect that! Remember various Christians interpret the OT different so you're going to be confused soon! lol


Thank you for the response.

I am viewing only the interpretation of the original creation, since that is what this thread is about.

From my own perspective, the explanation I have heard most is that God created the universe. That is all I am currently able to go on, so that is all I will go on, until I receive other interpretations to better understand.

Kind regards


Message me if you need any help understanding. Like I said it's confusing. You can go through so much info and still be stucked.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:57 PM
link   
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


Thank you very much for the response.

If you ever want to, could you provide me, in U2U if you want, what you believe is the most original interpretation of God and the creation of the universe? This is what would interest me the most and probably be most helpful in responding to this thread.

Kind regards



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 06:59 PM
link   
reply to post by Hitotsumami
 


Hi hito,
Yes you are correct your material brain does produce electrical impulses or grooves but these onlyaccompany the though; they are not the thought. example; When we think of justice we are not thinking of the electrical impulses or grooves in the brain. Justice has a meaning. It does not mean grooves or electric impulses. When we say that mercy is kinder than justice were not comparing the stricter grooves of justice with the kinder grooves of mercy.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 07:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by oliveoil
reply to post by Hitotsumami
 


Hi hito,
Yes you are correct your material brain does produce electrical impulses or grooves but these onlyaccompany the though; they are not the thought. example; When we think of justice we are not thinking of the electrical impulses or grooves in the brain. Justice has a meaning. It does not mean grooves or electric impulses. When we say that mercy is kinder than justice were not comparing the stricter grooves of justice with the kinder grooves of mercy.


Thank you for the response.

What is your reasoning that these feeling are not the thought, but only accompany the thought? I do not see one given, other than you just saying that they are not.

I would very much like to understand your point better.

Also, does this really still relate to something existing as nothing? Even if you can provide your reasoning or evidence as to these feelings being made of physically nothing, they still have a meaning and attributes carried along with them, so they are not truly nothing. Nothing has no meanings or attributes.

Kind regards



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 07:11 PM
link   
reply to post by Hitotsumami
 


The trouble your having is that you find it hard to think of a thing existing if it is not in space. You must remind yourself that space is merely emptiness,and emptiness can hardly be essential to existence.
God does not exist in space.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 07:13 PM
link   
reply to post by oliveoil
 




The trouble your having is that you find it hard to think of a thing existing if it is not in space. You must remind yourself that space is merely emptiness,and emptiness can hardly be essential to existence.
God does not exist in space.


Thank you for the response.

I have given my reason as to why something existing not in space is still not 'nothing.' I shall quote myself below.


I think that just because it is not physical and exists outside our universe does not mean it is nothing.

God has attributes, so I still do not see how it can be 'nothing'. It may be nothing in our universe, but it must have some kind of being to have attributes.


Kind regards



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 07:17 PM
link   
reply to post by Hitotsumami
 



What is your reasoning that these feeling are not the thought, but only accompany the thought? I do not see one given, other than you just saying that they are not.
The example I gave you is because things have meanings, and they do not mean electrical impulses.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 07:19 PM
link   
reply to post by Hitotsumami
 


All you are saying is that God has attributes. Gods Attributes are not material. If they are please point them out for me. Thanks



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 07:22 PM
link   
reply to post by oliveoil
 


You haven't responded to my first reply, but I will go ahead and respond to this one.


The example I gave you is because things have meanings, and they do not mean electrical impulses.


As far as I am aware, we create these meanings in our mind. Our sense of justice, or love, is either is there naturally in our brain at birth, or we learn it from others and our own experiences.

You may not be able to hold feelings in your hand, but this does not mean they are made of nothing. They are formed in the brain.

And even if you can somehow show me how they are truly nothing, refer to my previous post as to why even if is not made of anything physical, it is still not 'nothing.'

Kind regards

EDIT: Sorry, you responded while I was posting.


All you are saying is that God has attributes. Gods Attributes are not material. If they are please point them out for me. Thanks


God does have attributes. Even if these attributes exist outside our universe, he has them nonetheless. Because he has attributes, he cannot be nothing. Nothing has no attributes.

The attributes of God? As far as I have been told, they are loving, jealous, anger. Very similar to human attributes.

Kind regards

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Hitotsumami]



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 07:46 PM
link   
To the OP,
This is actually quite brilliant.

There is a huge branch of Theology that actually spans across most major religions and most major systems of Philosophy. Its called Negation.

negation

technically you the nail on the head with this one, but most people wont get it



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 08:27 PM
link   
reply to post by oliveoil
 


So you use incredibly twisted logic to try to claim Hawking supports a God created Universe when in actuality his statements were the direct opposite.

The Bible says that God brought everything into existence via direct divine command. He essentially used magic words to command things into existence.

So a supernatural being commands the Universe to come into existence in one week is the same as the Universe naturally creating itself specifically without a God?

Congratulations you win my daily face palm award:




posted on Sep, 4 2010 @ 03:46 AM
link   
Oh dear, oh dear,

what a load of...., well as Titen-Sxull diplomatically called it: Twisted logic.

As toasters recently have been debated on this forum in a religious context, I will initiate a tradition and use them in a crash-course in logic; sadly needed on this thread.

1/ A toaster contains metal, so does a human (similarity by inclusion).

2/ A toaster can't fly by its own power, neither can a human (similarity by exclusion).


Ergo: Humans are toasters (in kindergarten logic).

In adult language and logic it would be: Humans and toasters share certain similarities, but are not identical.
Ergo: Humans are NOT toasters.

Let's upgrade to the level of the 'divine':

1/ Christian theologians study the "nothing ...(which)... created a universe" (citation from 'oliveoil'. My parenthesis).
Stephen Hawking studies a nothing (quantum foam, M-branes, zero-point physics) as the basis of the universe.
(Similarity by inclusion)

2/ The 'nothing' (spirit) of christian theologians is without "weight, colour, smell, size, shape". Neither have quantum foam or M-branes weight, colour etc
(Similarity by exclusion).

So by using 'oliveoil's' special brand of logic, we arrive at following conclusions: 'Oliveoil' is a toaster (consequently having the intellect of a toaster), and the 'christian' 'god' is for real.

MY heathen logic says, that 'oliveoil' is not a toaster, and that the 'christian' 'god' is a result of the fantasy-factory.

Maybe some 'christian' eyes will start bleeding from reading my blasphemy, or a spiritual fuse will blow. Consider it martyrdom.

And should anyone be interested in a more functional terminology on 'nothing', I'm at your service.

PS It may surprise some people, but logic is not a sub-discipline of theology.



posted on Sep, 4 2010 @ 06:50 AM
link   
reply to post by oliveoil
 




Nothing created the universe -which is God!
Ah hah! No backsies! You said God = Nothing. And you said nothing created the universe, as if "it" were some sort of conscious being, but it's not, and that's exactly what Hawking's meant when he said "God" is not required.



the universe can and will create itself from nothing
Here's an exert from a paper I wrote in 2008 and posted onto ATS early 2009:

Can energy appear from nothing? If so, does this energy really exist? You can’t pull something from nothing, but what are the chances of absolutely nothing happening in the infinite time and space available?
----
We truly did come from nothing, and from this nothing we can draw energy.
Can I claim intellectual copyright or something, Hawking's has obviously been lurking around ATS for ideas!!!


Haha...I kid, I kid...I'll let you get away with this one Hawking's


[edit on 4/9/10 by CHA0S]



posted on Sep, 4 2010 @ 10:33 AM
link   
reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
 


The New Testament does not contradict anything. It's the establishment of a new set of rules for all people because salvation could not come from the Old Covenant. Christ died once for all, and for all to attain salvation through Him.

Back to topic, Stephen Hawking can say what he wants, but the Universe is not self-created. It came into being, yes. M-Theory is more of a leap of faith than saying that there is a Designer.



posted on Sep, 4 2010 @ 11:50 AM
link   

Originally posted by Romantic_Rebel
reply to post by oliveoil
 


How can God crate the universe and still nothing created the universe? I think you misinterpreted the article. Stephen Hawking said God was not necessary in creating the universe. Also I don't believe a thing Christianity has to offer. Since Christianity contradicts the Torah.


nothing= no thing

thing = material

how can you explain something thats not material, through a material means of understanding?

if your awareness is focused on the finite material dimension, you cannot understand the infinite spiritual dimension. and visa versa, hence the human "imperfection"

the scope of understanding/awareness is limited, as soon as you grasp the one side you lose the other.its like your field of vision, you have the capability to manuever your body into a position so that your eyes can fix on anything within a 360 degree circle, however they can only focus on whats currently in front of them. As soon as you turn around you lose what you were just looking at, but in turn are able to see whatever is now in front of you. i believe this is the flaw or imperfection that makes the human learning process unique.

there is a little trick to be able to play off what you dont understand (or cant see), and that is the concept of faith.

if i tell you theres pool behind you, and you believe me, you effectivly bypass the need to turn around and confirm this.

you can then freely do your backflip, and know to hold your breath because your about to land in a pool. all without ever needing to circum to the natural impulse to turn around and learn for yourself.

there is also the notion that i could be deceiving you, and it could be a brick wall behind you. this is an opposing force called doubt, and it can inhibit you just as much as faith can empower you.



new topics

top topics



 
4
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join