So, What happens to you if/when religion is proven false?

Good. There is definitely a higher understanding.

Also you need to understand everyone will say that same thing

There is one understanding in that people must need god to live out their life.

Another understanding that GOD is human creation and he find his purpose without a god theory because he will continue to evolve and make new goal post for purpose in his life.

There is one masses and there is another for individual.

To control a mass you need a lie. Why control a mass? Because if not they turn on each other.

Everybody have both understanding in a way , it is just that most do not think as individual , they think as a slave to the conditioning of the society.

To the original question, take a church person and get him or her to read the stuff at
www.thechronicleproject.org...
Then watch their face and ask how they feel.
That should pretty well sum it up

religion is a security system.

reply to post by pokerking


religion is false, no matter how true it may sound to you.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
religion is false, no matter how true it may sound to you.

Religion is false to you, if you say it is false to you. However, it is true to those who profess it to be so. God, however is universal and available to us all. Those who seek him with an open heart, find him. Those who deny him, would not believe in him if he stood right before their eyes.

The arguments are trifling contraptions of Man. Believe in him and ask him for it. If you doubt, he hears not your request. For the judgement you pronounce upon God, he pronounces upon you.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

Those who seek him with an open heart, find him. Those who deny him, would not believe in him if he stood right before their eyes.

No, quite the opposite; the skeptics ask for evidence of your claims of God....... if he/she or it could reveal him/her/it self then it would be the SCIENCE of God not the FAITH in GOD, there would be evidence, of course, he/she/it would have to prove he/she/it created the universe or prove he/she/it had powers above and beyond the universe.

Laters Brother,

Awake and Aware

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
reply to post by IAMIAM

 

Those who seek him with an open heart, find him. Those who deny him, would not believe in him if he stood right before their eyes.

No, quite the opposite; the skeptics ask for evidence of your claims of God....... if he/she or it could reveal him/her/it self then it would be the SCIENCE of God not the FAITH in GOD, there would be evidence, of course, he/she/it would have to prove he/she/it created the universe or prove he/she/it had powers above and beyond the universe.

Laters Brother,

As I said, you would deny him even if he stood right before your eyes. You would say, but this is not God, this is that !

And, I say to you, you are correct, as I shake my head at your silliness.

With Love

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Then God can be whatever you want him to be. Which is exactly my point.

It's like putting a block in front of someone and saying this is the most powerful block in the universe, and when someone says "what's special about it, show me" they just claim you are close-minded.

It's retarded, it's not using you're head whatsoever.

Simply suggesting a hypothesis in which "GOD" whatever he/she/it is appears in front of me is a silly hypothesis, unless you can define God, of course i won't believe you because you can't define God, God could be a ball of putty for all i know, how could i possibly recognise him as God.

If you put God in front of me, get him to move some stars, create a few new solar systems, maybe bring Jesus back to life and he can show me his magic tricks.....

then i will give you God as a science. An obervable recorded science.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Then God can be whatever you want him to be. Which is exactly my point.

No not really. Everything is part of the whole. I cannot make a grain of sand God, but the grain of sand is part of God.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareIt's like putting a block in front of someone and saying this is the most powerful block in the universe, and when someone says "what's special about it, show me" they just claim you are close-minded.

What is special about that block is that their is not another one exactly like it anywhere in the Universe. It is entirely unique.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareIt's retarded, it's not using you're head whatsoever.

If you say so my friend.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareSimply suggesting a hypothesis in which "GOD" whatever he/she/it is appears in front of me is a silly hypothesis, unless you can define God, of course i won't believe you because you can't define God, God could be a ball of putty for all i know, how could i possibly recognise him as God.

I have already defined God quite simply numerous times in this conversation, yet you simply deny my definition.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareIf you put God in front of me, get him to move some stars, create a few new solar systems, maybe bring Jesus back to life and he can show me his magic tricks.....

My friend, God has already done these things and continues to do these things everyday. Yet you ask for more proof. And more proof. And more proof. When will your proof be satiated?

Have you found why everything is in such perfect order in the Universe yet, why there is no probability of random occurrence?

Originally posted by awake_and_awarethen i will give you God as a science. An obervable recorded science.

Ok my friend. You keep your point of view, I'll keep mine.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Ok, God is obvious and yes, you have "defined" God in this thread, or at least you just state him as everything or something unique or something that is everywhere and owns everything.

Obviously we are just blind; myself, Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens and George Carlin.

We all just deny the obvious truth of God. We are doing it because we are arrogant and we just hate the idea that God exists......

Apologies in advance for the sarcasm my friend,

Awake and Aware

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
and George Carlin.

Whoa doggies here my friend. I once polished a bottle of Jack Daniels off with George Carlin on a picnic table on Waikiki Beach outside the Honolulu Police Department. It was back in 95-96. We had quite an in depth discussion on these matters. Now while his definition of God is not the man in the clouds portrayed on mainstream religions, after we talked on it, his belief in God was without question. Granted, like you, he was hung up on the word, the mainstream portrayal, and not the Omniscient-Omnipresent idea.

Sarcasm is fine with me my friend. I do not get hung up on how a heart speaks, just the message it conveys. As I have said before, I can certainly understand your disassociation with the idea of God. It has been corrupted by Man. Perhaps a new word is needed to describe the indescribable. Do you believe in Infinity?

If so, then lets just agree that infinity exists.

And, before it is asked, I have as much proof of my conversation with George as I do for God. I did have some of my Marine buddies with me, but they have scattered to the wind since then. Therefore, the conversation will have to be taken on faith as well.

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
and George Carlin.

Sarcasm is fine with me my friend. I do not get hung up on how a heart speaks, just the message it conveys.

Thanks, i don't intend to be hurtful or over-zelous; sometimes i can find no other words to accurately convey my argument or feelings. I'm glad you overlooked it anyway, again no harm intended.

As I have said before, I can certainly understand your disassociation with the idea of God. It has been corrupted by Man. Perhaps a new word is needed to describe the indescribable. Do you believe in Infinity?

I believe infinity is possible, our reality seems to even suggest infinity when you look at the fibonacci sequence, the mandelbrot set, an the even the possibity of emerging scientific theory such as the "multiverse" or macroverse, and the revelations of quantam theory;

I really wouldn't like to say that infity is not possible, in fact i think it most likely is, i wouldn't like to say with certainity that it is though when there is no irrefutable evidence to prove it so. (Just as saying the earth is flat was no certainity because they did not have the evidence to say so for certain...yet they did, many Christians actually.) At which point in history science wins and stops people making crazy remarks without proper reasoning. LOL sorry.

If so, then lets just agree that infinity exists.

It exists as an idea, that's all i will agree to, until further scientific breakthroughs in Physics which can conclusively prove the universe is infinite. Granted, there is more suggestable evidence that it is possible. But it's merely an idea, the universe appears finite to us, in terms of the maths of reality a brick has dimensions, has boundaries, we still can't prove the universe and reality doesn't.

And, before it is asked, I have as much proof of my conversation with George as I do for God. I did have some of my Marine buddies with me, but they have scattered to the wind since then. Therefore, the conversation will have to be taken on faith as well.

Don't get me wrong, i still have faith, i have faith in humanity (sometimes i ask why) and science. Of course, with my faith, if someone gives an account of their experience, i simply expect them not to lie, to be telling the truth...or at least until i have sufficient reason to suspect they would otherwise do so.

The difference between my faith and your faith in God is that my faith has a foundation, a system, if someone decieves me, my faith becomes less, do the opposite and my faith remains true until i have reason to have less faith. I cannot warrant a faith in your God without sufficient evidence, your account of God, in MY personal opinion, is not sufficient grounds to warrant faith or belief.

I believe that you talked with George Carlin though. What did he think? I know how the "mainstream" has conveyed God, but i'm sure George thinks that the word God is meaningless and is only a word to describe human's wish for a higher power being that governs the universe, the word God is simply not needed, it's case of Occam's Razor:-

God created the universe
God just exists

becomes
                   the universe
       just exists

Surely, you can agree that, God is a meaningless concept, an empty concept, especially if you believe in inifity and don't believe in God "creating" or starting anything... if it simply just exists.

Anyway, looking forward to reading your rebut against my points.

Peace,

Awake and Aware.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareyet they did, many Christians actually.) At which point in history science wins and stops people making crazy remarks without proper reasoning. LOL sorry.

No need to be sorry here. I perfectly agree with you. I may be a follower of Christ, but that does not make me a Christian. Organised religion has done more to limit Mans development than any other force on Earth. In no way do I agree with the restrictions placed on Man by the religious community. I believe that God and Science are part of the same puzzle, science only brings us closer to understanding the whole picture.

Originally posted by awake_and_aware a brick has dimensions, has boundaries, we still can't prove the universe and reality doesn't.

A brick has dimensions, limits that we set upon it to understand its existence in the universe. However, if you look closely at a brick, every point on it is infinite. Pick a spot and look closely. First you will see that it is a bunch of grains held together by compact arrangement of puzzle pieces. Look closer at one of those puzzle pieces, it is made up by more puzzle pieces held together by compact puzzle pieces (molecules). Look closer at those pieces and you find yet more pieces similarly held together (Atoms). Look still closer, and this process goes on into infinity. Furthermore, the brick has no exterior dimensions either. The granules it is made of are connected to the air molecules which make up its atmosphere. All things are connected.

Even in the supposed vacuum of space, it is not really a vacuum. Space is a sea of energy that is only recently starting to reveal itself to Man. As our technology develops, we will become closer to understanding that everything is bit one thing, all interconnected.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareDon't get me wrong, i still have faith, i have faith in humanity (sometimes i ask why) and science. Of course, with my faith, if someone gives an account of their experience, i simply expect them not to lie, to be telling the truth...or at least until i have sufficient reason to suspect they would otherwise do so.

Man cannot lie. He can only tell the truth the filter of his mind. His truth may not necessarily equal yours, as your filter is constructed differently.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareThe difference between my faith and your faith in God is that my faith has a foundation, a system, if someone decieves me, my faith becomes less, do the opposite and my faith remains true until i have reason to have less faith. I cannot warrant a faith in your God without sufficient evidence, your account of God, in MY personal opinion, is not sufficient grounds to warrant faith or belief.

My faith and yours are one and the same. We just perceive it differently. You cannot perceive it the same as me for you have not lived my life just as I have not lived yours. If I say a tall white man spoke to me today and said I was awesome, you'd probably believe me on that. However, if I said I spoke to God today and he said he existed and I was awesome, you'd think me a madman.

Now why would you believe the one and not the other? It is because your internal filter has made one tale out to be plausible and another impossible. Both scenarios, in actuality are just as provable, and just as improvable at the instance of communicating them.

Originally posted by awake_and_awareI believe that you talked with George Carlin though. What did he think? I know how the "mainstream" has conveyed God, but i'm sure George thinks that the word God is meaningless and is only a word to describe human's wish for a higher power being that governs the universe, the word God is simply not needed, it's case of Occam's Razor:-

True, the word is not needed, but it is human nature to label things so that we can communicate them to others. We can choose a different label, the idea remains the same.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

Man cannot lie. He can only tell the truth the filter of his mind. His truth may not necessarily equal yours, as your filter is constructed differently.

Truth is exposed and cannot be differentiated due to the objective nature of it's conviction. We can PROVE the truth that everyone can agree to. The earth is an oblate spheroid.

If he thinks differently it's not because "filter" of his mind, it's because he is ignorant of the truth. The objective truth.

When you mention "tell the truth of the filter of his mind" i totally understand you, and in regards to music, art people do have different filters and the truth of a beautiful piece of music might differ from person to person, in fact some might think it's not truth but false.

But i'm talkiing about objective truth, we have evidence, there is no denying, proven kind of truth. Not the my idea of something that i can't prove is different from your idea of something you can't prove. That's not truth, it's blind speculation and faith in something without reason, blind belief. I don't have my mind "filtered" differently, i just don't see any evidence to warrant a belief, that is science's primary assertation.

You can claim there are magical pixies and special caring forces that love you but no one will take you seriously in the scientific community, not without distinctive evidence.

You talk about energy, about forces, why not just leave it at energy, why need to bring God when we have better words?

A belief in infinity is not the same belief as a belief in God. If God = infinity then just call it infinity. God is the word used to describe a higher power, what's to say God is higher power and not one with the universe, inside us all, in that case, not being a higher power, i will resort to using the broadest possible words such as Energy or Forces.

I won't resort to this word God, it's not needed.

PS.

Man cannot lie.

Look at man's history of deception. Man is capable of evil and deception just as he is cpable of kindness and compassion.

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Ok my friend, there is no God. Lets assume anyway for the sake of these next series of thoughts and questions.

We are simply random combinations of molecules that have randomly bound together to form an organism. Molecules themselves have no thought process. They function mere based on molecular laws. Once they have bonded, to the point of making an organism, what molecular law causes that organism to then reproduce, seek sustenance, to live?

Furthermore, what causes these organisms to group together into larger organisms with various attributes, ie. lions, and tigers, and bears?

Lastly, what causes the difference between Man and these other organisms which cause Man to ponder his own existence and seek to understand it?

What is your answer to these things with out God's involvement?

With Love,

Your Brother

Originally posted by IAMIAM
reply to post by awake_and_aware

 

Ok my friend, there is no God. Lets assume anyway for the sake of these next series of thoughts and questions.

Ok

We are simply random combinations of molecules that have randomly bound together to form an organism. Molecules themselves have no thought process. They function mere based on molecular laws. Once they have bonded, to the point of making an organism, what molecular law causes that organism to then reproduce, seek sustenance, to live?

I'm not going to pretend i'm a scientist so asking me the why's and what's of the universe is not going to get you the answers you want. You can use God as a filler if you so desire though, i just personally disagree.

Furthermore, what causes these organisms to group together into larger organisms with various attributes, ie. lions, and tigers, and bears?

Again, i really don't know. Maybe study the latest scientific breakthroughs in micro-biology/biology and study new theorem. It's all about asking why, but there are CURRENT limitations to the answers which can be given.......

What causes the perfect orbit and spinning of the planets in a chaotic display of order? What causes life to start on a planet, we don't know yet. We don't know what "causes" gravity. And again, simply stating "God did it!" is not a sufficient answer.

We used to think that volcanos and earthquakes were punishment from God but we soon learnt we live on a heating and cooling planet in a very chaotic system most of which where life exists on a climatic knife-edge, either being where it is too hot or too cold for life to form.

Lastly, what causes the difference between Man and these other organisms which cause Man to ponder his own existence and seek to understand it?

Mutation of the brain and neurons that have formed complicated systems which have evolved from simple systems over many years (millions) Micro-evolution becomes macro-evolution.

Just because we have language doesn't make us any different from any other conciouss life form like a monkey, certainly we have a opposable thumbs which has allowed us to use our hands to accomplish great things. We have eyes/ears/nose/mouth/brain/heart just like a monkey and many other mammals that have evolved here on earth.

And i know what you are going to ask; i don't know what CAUSES mututation, you can keep asking why, and if you don't get an answer you can use God but expect him to retreat when science discovers otherwise.

What is your answer to these things with out God's involvement?

My answer is that science doesn't have sufficient means to explain the why's of everything yet. You can ask why until knowledge limit is reached. People have the habit of using God when human knowledge can't explain things.


Peace

Awake and Aware

reply to post by awake_and_aware


Thank you for taking the time to answer the questions my friend. Of course they cannot be answered. The Human mind can only go so far even with our best technology to explain the wonders of this existence. Myself, I could stare at a leaf for days and contemplate the greatness that caused it to be in existence. It takes the Atheist to come along and say, its just a leaf lets look at something else.

Your perception is valid my friend. We need minds who seek to disprove God as much as we need minds to seek to prove his existence. We both work to uncover and explain the wonderful mysteries of our existence. Now you may say we do not need the Godly mind, but where do you think such things as poetry, Art, Music, literature, and other such beautiful things come from?

Our greatest master pieces of human creation come from those who contemplate God. Without their contribution, life would be dull and boring.

So, judge not others for having a different view than your own. Do not put down the beliefs of others as mere trifling inconveniences of life. Life has not been explained conclusively by anyone yet. Either side has an equal chance at being right.

Be happy that you have your own perception and a natural right to determine what it means. We ALL need each other to make the world a better place. It can be beautiful, if we give each other room to make it so.

Judge not, Love all, be at peace

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM

Now you may say we do not need the Godly mind, but where do you think such things as poetry, Art, Music, literature, and other such beautiful things come from?

Human-kind, we created our own language, and the word God, and we created the meaning to go with it, We evolved with opposable thumbs, we evolved our minds, our thinking, we can do great things like i mentioned earlier.

Our greatest master pieces of human creation come from those who contemplate God. Without their contribution, life would be dull and boring.

Here i disagree, what a statement to make, I do believe the doctrines, even the evil doctrines of the abrahamic religions are still good works of fiction and poetry, eloquently written by great scribes with misguided agendas. They show that man is cabable of compassion as much as he is as evil, but the doctrines claim things as good when they are really evil.

In regards to architecture, it's not religious people specifically that create the buildings, it is the builders, and other great architecture has been created that is not associated with God.

Sorry, i appreciate your words and nice comments. I also appreciate that if there wern't people who believed in God i woudn't be here trying to rebut it. In my perfect world, i wouldn't have to attempt to reason with such irrational beliefs but the world's not perfect, or not my idea of perfect anyway. Humans would spend more time talking with each other instead of wasting time praying and preaching the invisible. We could spend more time with science and developing technology and medicines to improve our lives.

Instead of fighting over what God is, and what he/she it desires. or even discussing whether he exists when we don't have any evidence, it's a waste of time and completely unscientific.

Science is the pinnacle of the human mind, deducing knowledge from reality, religion and God is the opposite, they have the answers before they have the evidence.

Apologies IAMIAM but i don't think we will ever agree on this matter, we have different world-views.

Peace out to you though,

A&A

Originally posted by awake_and_aware
Science is the pinnacle of the human mind, deducing knowledge from reality, religion and God is the opposite, they have the answers before they have the evidence.

Here I must ask my friend, with your love and devotion to science, why are you here disputing God with me, and not pursuing a course of science instead?

Originally posted by awake_and_awareApologies IAMIAM but i don't think we will ever agree on this matter, we have different world-views.

You do not have to apologise my friend. Never apologise for your perspective. I haven't apologised for mine. The point of discussions that people seem to forget, is not to convert another to your view, that is impossible, the purpose is to share. With sharing, we come to understand each other. Certainly you understand by our discussion that I do not think you some uneducated fool who cannot think for himself. No, I think you are a wonderful human being who has much to offer Mankind with your perspective. My friend, I would not want to change your mind even if I power to do so. Your perspective is just as valid, just as beautiful, and just as needed as my own. If there were a God believing Man privy to this conversation who attempted to denounce your view, I would defend your view as valiantly as I would defend my own. All have a right to free will, none have the right to take another's. We are not supposed to agree on all things. Just love each other.

Originally posted by awake_and_awarePeace out to you though,

Thank you for this wish of love my friend, and peace be upon you as well.

With Love,

Your Brother

reply to post by IAMIAM


Thanks for your kind words and understanding. I spend time discussing this because it is an important matter that separates to largely different ideas of the universe, the reality of how we exist. I think i have a lot to offer on my perpective as i'm sure you have too.

Peace out again,

I'll leave you with a video that we can both enjoy, i'm sure we can both agree upon it's beauty too:-