Do You Believe In Transsexualism?

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
Irrelevant. Epilepsy and Down's Syndrome are backed by solid scientific evidence. Transsexualism is backed by anecdotal accounts and Open-Mindedness Gone Mad.

Transsexual Gene Link Identified
Researchers Find Transsexual Gene
Science Discovers Transsexual Gene

Remember, before we knew better, we thought the world was flat. Don't make the mistake of thinking that we've discovered everything there is to discover. Open-mindedness ain't a bad thing. It's what keeps us curious and wanting to learn. Of course, if you don't want to learn...

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


There's a big difference though in having a seizure, which is a physical unpleasant effect, than feeling like you don't belong in your own body. That's a psychological issue and could, most likely, be corrected by speaking to the correct professional's.

Heck, I've felt like I haven't been in my own body at times but I've never contemplated physical surgery.

My reasoning is that if I was born with a vagina and breasts I wouldn't feel like a man at all... because I wouldn't be one!

As for abnormality, well I'd go with the simple explanation of something out of the generic norm.

I could describe myself abnormal in certain respects but not down to something as fundamental as my gender.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps

than we can understand the possibility of the mutation of transsexualism occurring.

Just because some doctor tries to justify their prejudices through their work, doesn't make it a fact.

And btw, trans-sexualism is NOT a mutation.

No one ever "Mutated" into the opposite sex.

It's a man-made operation. Through surgery and chemicals.

This alone proves how little is understood in your post. You think it's a mutation. But in reality it's not.

Also, no PhD can justify prejudice and stereotypes no matter what they say.

Unless of course, you believe that 80% of the female population in the West is actually MEN IN DENIAL??

This alone proves my point.

Only men should be in the workforce. Only men should fight in war. I guess any woman who wants to participate in those things needs an operation and hormones to get in touch with their "true selves"?

Baloney ! This stereotyping and prejudice needs to come to an end. STOP making people feel guilty for being born a certain gender by being prejudice against their likes/dislikes or behaviors! This is causing them to be so confused they will actually accept genital mutilations! Sickening.

reply to post by LordBucket


Your analogy failed. Taking a car and converting it into a boat is one thing, chopping off parts of your sexual organs and pretending to be the opposite sex is very different.

The boat car will be able to drive on the road and operate in the water, a man "changing his sex" with an artifical vagina will never be able to have kids and contain a child inside them, no matter how hard they pretend.

Many people in the world don't see things the way others do, it's a simple fact of life.

Of course I want to understand why people make the choices they do but as I've already explained; just because someone is a feminine male doesn't mean they are "trapped in a man's body"

Also, I want to express my beliefs - what would the point of a discussion site be if I didn't want to?

reply to post by getreadyalready

the spirit is more fluidlike and less rigid

it could easily adapt into any physical representation

I am not subservient to the vehicle, I am adaptable.

So then, "you" are the spirit, right? And this physical body is just a vehicle you're riding around in? So "being male" is a temporary thing, kind of like saying "I'm driving a motorcycle today." Yes?

So, incarnating into a body of one gender and cutting it up to make it more like the other is roughly akin to buying a motorcycle and putting on new fairings?

Basically...it's a cosmetic change of no particular consequence?




[edit on 3-9-2010 by LordBucket]

reply to post by muzzleflash

and most people are rigid- very straightened out-

reply to post by muzzleflash


I guess you read absolutely nothing that I wrote. *sigh*.

Scientific Experimental Data accused of being prejudice. If I had the mutation of six arms I would do a Vishna-Shiva-Ganesh hexagon face palm with all hands at the same time.

Originally posted by fooks

so where do we stand? christians? against.

muslim? death.

jew? against.

hindu, no prob.

tao? they don't care.

Another example of Societal Stereotyping!!

There are Christians for and against it.
There are Muslims who do not seek death penalty over this.
There are Jews who are for this.
There are Hindus who do have a problem with this.
There are Taoists who do care about it.

True facts.

Stop stereotyping a large group of people into narrow belief systems.

"If you are X than you believe Y". That's very ignorant, I believe.

Labeling people to classify their beliefs in vast over-generalized scales is a major form of misconception of reality. Reality is not like this. Everyone is different and thinks differently---that is reality!

That is why I am against Trans-sexual propaganda. Because people use stereotypes and prejudices to PUNISH folks into feeling so guilty for their behaviors/likes-dislikes/etc; that they will actually MUTILATE themselves and ruin their lives permanently over it.

That's how strong prejudice really is. It hurts people so bad inside, and confuses them so much, that they will do the unthinkable as a result of it.

Well it needs to stop. It's just hardcore wrong.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
reply to post by muzzleflash

 

I guess you read absolutely nothing that I wrote. *sigh*.

Scientific Experimental Data accused of being prejudice. If I had the mutation of six arms I would do a Vishna-Shiva-Ganesh hexagon face palm with all hands at the same time.

Science shows that humans can mutate from one sex to another?

Where? We are not frogs. Come on man!

For human beings, it takes a medical operation to change them. And still it's not the real deal. It's like putting the body of a Ferrari over the engine of a Toyota. It's not the same as a real Ferrari, everyone knows that.

Originally posted by Death_Kron
There's a big difference though in having a seizure, which is a physical unpleasant effect, than feeling like you don't belong in your own body.

Honey, the physical unpleasantness of having a grand mall seizure is the LEAST of the problems of being epileptic. Every time, I felt like my life was over. It's the scariest thing. I can't even describe it. To be aware enough that I know I can't breathe, can hear a loud, electronic buzz in my ears and can't hear myself scream, while people around me are looking at me as if they've seen a ghost... the tunnel vision, disorientation, fear, loss of awareness... it's all very out-of-this-worldy. The physical part is nothing compared to the fear and emotional damage of a seizure.

Transsexuals go through HELL with the feelings of being in a foreign body, one that's not their own.

That's a psychological issue and could, most likely, be corrected by speaking to the correct professional's.

Most likely, huh? Do you think any transsexuals ever tried therapy? Do you think they ever just wished with all their being that they could accept their bodies and go along like everyone else?

As for abnormality, well I'd go with the simple explanation of something out of the generic norm.

What is the generic norm, though? I know the word "abnormal" means not normal, but you have to then define "normal". Do you mean in the minority?

Homosexuality is NORMAL in that it shows up in the animal world and ten percent of people are homosexual. It's "normal" to be homosexual, but most people aren't. By that definition, transsexualism is also normal, because a certain percentage of people are transsexual. Same with epilepsy and Down's syndrome.

If you're definition is "something out of the generic norm" that sounds like a minority. Then yes, they're all abnormal. But so is a woman who tunes up her car. So are geniuses. So are musical artists. EVERYONE is abnormal. If you want to draw some sort of line of acceptance at sexuality or sex organs, that's your prerogative, certainly.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

Sure, "gender identity" is very complicated biologically as well as sociologically, but does this really mean surgery is the solution?

Why not try to understand these people and try to help them understand and accept themselves? Why not change our understanding of "gender norms" as a society, instead of mutilating people?

The whole transsexual surgery thing must be big money for those in the medical/pharmaceutical industry who are willing to exploit the confused and ignorant...

reply to post by Death_Kron

Taking a car and converting it into a boat is one thing,
chopping off parts of your sexual organs and pretending
to be the opposite sex is very different.

an artifical vagina will never be able to have kids

This goes back to what's been said before: is the possibility of changing gender simply a question of technological ability? If we had the technology to alter a man to give him a functional womb capable of bearing children, would he then be female?

what would the point of a discussion
site be if I didn't want to?

You've been here long enough to know how often people who create threads have no interest in hearing anyone's opinion but their own.

I want to understand why people make the choices they do but as
I've already explained; just because someone is a feminine male
doesn't mean they are "trapped in a man's body"

If you really want to understand, may I suggest that instead of asserting your point of view, you try asking yourself "what would make them want to do that?"


[edit on 3-9-2010 by LordBucket]

Apologies in advance - I was interrupted when writing this post and the thread may have exploded!

Getreadyalready has lots of very valid points. Some other concepts that are important, and just to reinforce ...

- Gender and sexuality are separate from one another. An endocrinologist/psychiatrist generally won't place someone on hormone therapy based on say ... the sexual excitement they receive when wearing another gender's underwear
- Psychiatrists have recognized patterns that may make a person believe themselves to be transsexual when they are not ... Mental illness is a factor here at times
- Our understanding of gender and our brains is rather limited at this point. We don't know all the factors, and cannot weigh them.
- Gender is a social construct based on very basic observation. We believe there are only two genders ... Fact is there are many more variations than most of us know. It's just not popular to talk about. I'm transgender myself - due to the misunderstandings behind this word I don't tell people about it. People can be jerks. Most jerks are not qualified to even have an opinion on this subject - on both sides of the fence!


There's a lot of ways of looking at this. You either have to accept that it happens and there's valid reasons for it. Or that the society you have created is so inconsiderate that it cannot accept different expressions of gender.

In previous cultures transgenders were seen as blessed. Now, I can lose a friend simply because they might know what's between my legs, or that I have to take hormones on a daily basis to maintain an acceptable look to society. The important think to note here is that many transgenders are also classified as transsexuals. Though the two terms are often incorrectly over lapped. Unfortunately you will struggle to have a mature discussion on this issue because of this also. Also note that once a transsexual is operated on they can be referred to as TG.

Perhaps in an ideal society one could express themselves however they liked without fear of retribution, and I have no illusions that some transsexuals go through their procedures because of this; just to make society accept them a little more how they are. It's not a big act. It's how they are. We can't educate them to act like someone else.

Then there's TGs and TSs that are just legit cases and wouldn't be any different regardless of what you did to them.

One thing that has stood out to me is people's insistence that it's a physical procedure. The majority of it is pills and such like. It's not like bolting a sexual organ onto yourself makes you any more male or female than you were, and to say so is crude and a misunderstanding of what sex was. I wouldn't be any more or less my gender with or without my genitals psychologically speaking. The majority of what I personally have been through is hormonal - not surgical.

The majority of TS/TG people will tell you that. I'm a lot more stable with my current set of hormones, danke.

Originally posted by eMachine
Sure, "gender identity" is very complicated biologically as well as sociologically, but does this really mean surgery is the solution?

I would leave that up to the patient. It's his or her choice. Certainly not mine. If I want surgery, it's no one else's business.

Why not try to understand these people and try to help them understand and accept themselves?

That's been attempted for many, many years. Unsuccessfully.

Why not change our understanding of "gender norms" as a society, instead of mutilating people?

It's not mutilation. If I have a growth that I want removed, it's not mutilation. If something is missing from my body and medicine can replace it, it's MY business to do it or not.

The whole transsexual surgery thing must be big money for those in the medical/pharmaceutical industry who are willing to exploit the confused and ignorant...

So... transsexuals, who go through years of counseling are just confused and ignorant, huh?

reply to post by idonotcollectstamps


I will reply directly to your incorrect assumption, due to misconceptions by some scientists who fail to ask pertinent questions.

You are saying that men and women are hardwired differently by the actual methods and mechanisms of the way the brain operates physically.

This is a misconception. I will explain.

All of the men and women studied grew up under highly prejudiced and stereotypical societal systems and were inundated with propaganda since they were born.

Everyone agrees that children's brain develops the most during the young years of their life.

Women and men's brains APPEAR different only because they were treated differently and had different stereotypes/prejudices applied to them daily for their entire developments.

That is why it appears that way, but in a reality where NONE of these prejudices and stereotypes are applied to them daily through indoctrination and propaganda, you will almost certainly have JUST AS MANY FEMALE MATHEMATICIANS AS MALES!!!

The only reason we are different, is because we are treated different from day 1.

If we were treated equally, and had no stereotypes applied to us, we would be far more equal and similar.

That is why some men's brains appear to be "female" and vice versa. Because we created that through ENVIRONMENTAL conditions known as indoctrination and propaganda.

Now, reply please. And address this inconsistency in the scientists methodology. Thanks.

reply to post by muzzleflash


Again you read absolutely nothing that I wrote. If you had you would have learned that I described the differences between the male and the female brain.

The Mutation is at birth. A person BORN with the body of a male and the brain of a female or the body of a female and the brain of a male.

Do you understand now?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I'm sorry you have to suffer from epilepsy, I don't have any personal experience with anyone that has it but by all accounts it's a horrible condtion.

To be honest I can't fathom how someone could feel like they didn't belong in their own body, I find that very hard to comprehend although obviously that doesn't mean it's not possible.

Without being picky but a minority could be classed as abnormal as it's a rare percentage out of a total population or percentage. Abnormalities wil alway's exist but like I've mentioned above a transsexual can never, ever become a member of the opposite sex.

Sure they can have genital operations, take hormone tablets, wear opposite sex clothing but a man can never be a women! Vice versa.

I don't see how chopping off your penis, wearing make up and getting breast implants would solve someone's craving to be a women. They aren't a women, just a man pretending to be one!

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic


I would leave that up to the patient. It's his or her choice. Certainly not mine. If I want surgery, it's no one else's business.

Wrong. Suicide is Illegal. Therefore it is the Government's business if you have a particular "surgery" or not.

You cannot have it both ways.

Either suicide is legal, and thus all surgery is legal and no one's business.

Or both are government regulated.

They go together. Because suicide is merely surgery of the wrist.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
So... transsexuals, who go through years of counseling are just confused and ignorant, huh?

Yes, I think so. If their "doctors" are confused and ignorant, I don't see how the patient can not be confused and ignorant.

At one time, they thought a lobotomy was a good solution too. We're still very primitive.

Originally posted by eMachine

Why not try to understand these people and try to help them understand and accept themselves? Why not change our understanding of "gender norms" as a society, instead of mutilating people?

So they should stay how they are so the rest of society can feel 'comfortable' at their expense? Most TS's that I've met were miserable/suicidal until their operations. Post Op, they are completely different people. Happy for the first times in their lives.

The whole transsexual surgery thing must be big money for those in the medical/pharmaceutical industry who are willing to exploit the confused and ignorant...

You're assuming they are confused again. How can you be so sure? If the surgery isn't harming you directly, I wouldn't worry about it so much.

IRM

[edit on 3/9/10 by InfaRedMan]