Do You Believe In Transsexualism?

I was not aware that this was even up for discussion as to being a "Belief". I thought that it was accepted Science. I guess anything can be considered a "belief". Is the knowledge that the brain controls the body's function considered a "belief"? I guess it is. Heck I guess anything can be considered a "Belief".

Originally posted by LordBucket
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

Sex change isn't actually possible, you'll always be the sex you was born as. Anything else is simply a modification...

Ok. So then, what is this quality that we're discussed is or isn't being changed? What does it mean to "be male" or "be female?" Is it a physical quality? Is it a spiritual quality? Is it mental? Do souls posses gender? What exactly defines "being" male or female?

Male = XY = Penis and Testicle's = Testosterone

Female = XX = Vagina and Clitoris = Estrogen

Plus the associated trait's that each sex have, women are nothing like men when we are talking in general.

But I have known men to cry like women, known women to be harder than men, men to cry at music (I do sometimes, I love soul and the music touches my heart)

People have different traits, they aren't born into the wrong body.

reply to post by getreadyalready

DNA

we define a Female as XX and Male as XY.
No way to get around that one!!

Ok. What if you mix and match parts? What if you remove the penis from a man and surgically attach it to a woman. And let's say your technology is good enough to make it functional. Is that person now male or female?

Or, let's say you took two people, one male, one female...and you performed brain transplants, exchanging brains between the two bodies. Which person would be male, and which would be female?

If your answers to these two questions are different...where is the line? At what ratio of gender chromosomes in the body is one male or female?

reply to post by lellomackin


In a nutshell, yes. And we should be careful to define fetish and perversion. These are not negative terms. Or at least they should not be. We all have them, and they are deeply ingrained, and generally harmless (there are a few exceptions).

What you mention about lesbians that are attracted to feminine women, makes sense, and so does the gay men that are attracted to men who carry themselves as straight. BUT, the flipside of that coin makes no sense. What about the feminine lesbian that is attracted to butch women, and not attracted to men? That makes no sense?

And yes, to your other point. Men are probably hardwired to find women with a certain hip/waist ratio, and pretty hair and skin and bright eyes, and a healthy glow attractive. It is proven that strippers make more money while they are ovulating and/or on their cycle. There is much about sexual attraction that we don't understand, but it all boils down to "survival of species" and on the most basic level, we will be attracted to those that are most likely to be willing and able to produce healthy babies with us.

Everything outside of that basic instinct to find a healthy, fertile mate, everything else is just a fetish that developed as part of our experiences growing up in this crazy world!

reply to post by LordBucket


Sorry took so long in answering you, didn't see your post.

I'm already familiar with Pavlov's dog experiment and I guess what your alluding to is social or another type of conditioning?

It isn't really that important for me to try and understand however I would like to and this is a debating website and as such I've posted this thread.

You are the sex you are born as, it's as simple as that. No amount of surgery or hormone treatment can change that, if your born a man then you'll always be one regardless of whether you look like one or become mutiliated to not look like one.

Originally posted by idonotcollectstamps
I was not aware that this was even up for discussion as to being a "Belief". I thought that it was accepted Science. I guess anything can be considered a "belief". Is the knowledge that the brain controls the body's function considered a "belief"? I guess it is. Heck I guess anything can be considered a "Belief".

Please provide the science behind transsexualism.

reply to post by LordBucket


I think I see where you are going with this, but Transsexualism is an abnormality; anomalous examples and hypothetical constructs are NOT going to change the fact that Transsexualism is unnatural and an abnormality.

[edit on 3/9/2010 by Dark Ghost]

Originally posted by Death_Kron
Sex change isn't actually possible, you'll always be the sex you was born as.

And you're basing your opinion on the premise that sex organs make the man (or woman). If you're born with male sex organs, you're always a male. Well, since you don't have any experience being a transsexual, I can understand your opinion.

But if I want to know about transsexuals, I'm not going to ask a bunch of people who know nothing about it. I'm going to go to the source. I'm going to believe what transsexuals themselves have to say about it. Because I don't have the experience they do.

If I want to know about some South American tribe, I'm not going to trust the information I get from Wall Street investors.

I'm basing my opinion on the premise that sex organs DON'T make the man, as I tried to explain in my first post. Unless someone knows what it's like to feel like a person trapped inside a body that's not theirs, I'm going to take their opinion with a grain of salt.

You should read about the science, not about a bunch of straight people's opinions on something they know nothing about.

Source 1
Source 2

Well yes ofcourse people can be "born into the wrong body" so to say.

reply to post by LordBucket


A human being with an XX chromosome is a female. If we surgically attach 4 more arms and legs, she is not an octopus, she is still a female human. Surgically attaching a functional penis does not make you a female, any more than castrating a man makes him a female. The DNA trumps everything else.

Many men have high estrogen levels. Testosterone naturally breaks down into estrogen, and a number of health problems can aggravate the situation. Many women have high testosterone levels. Some even grow beards. Some are so high that they will fail standardized testing for athletics!! They are still females.

Estrogen, Testosterone, nor genitalia define your gender. DNA defines your gender. Outside of gender, an infininte number of things define your sexuality. It is entirely possible to have a High Testosterone, XX Female, that is perfectly straight, completely lesbian, or only attracted to latex donkeys. Her personal attractions have nothing to do with her Chromosomes, Hormones, or Genitalia.

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


I'm sorry but the simple fact of the matter is that your sex organs are connected to your hormonal system and that's what governs whether your a male or a female.

Also, even though I wasn't really discussing sexuality in a relational sense, I've seen example of a man having a sex change wanting to become a women and then continuing to have the desire to have sex with women as if he was still a man.

What does that make him? A Lesbian? In my opinion it makes him a man who has disfigured his body to look like a woman who wants to indulge in a particular sexual fantasy as acting like a Lesbian.

reply to post by Death_Kron

You are the sex you are born as, it's as simple as that.

So people born hermaphrodites are what exactly? And after they receive surgury to make them one particular gender, that changes nothing?

I'm already familiar with Pavlov's dog experiment and I guess what your alluding to is social or another type of conditioning?

This subject can be made to go in may directions. I'd prefer to not lead the debate, but rather allow it to develop by asking questions to encourage people to settle on their own answers...but logically consistent answers. I mention conditioning because both preference and behavior can be engineered, regardless of whether those preference and behaviors have to do with sex. But if we'd prefer to discuss physiology and transexualism rather than preferences and why people have them, that's fine too.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Another excellent post and explain's my whole point.

2nd line.

reply to post by getreadyalready

A human being with an XX chromosome is a female. If we surgically attach 4 more arms and legs, she is not an octopus, she is still a female human. Surgically attaching a functional penis does not make you a female, any more than castrating a man makes him a female. The DNA trumps everything else.

You evaded my question by answering only the first third of it. Read paragraphs 2 and 3 of the post you're replying to, and answer those questions now too, please.

I think the word transsexual is a misnomer.

I would think the more accurate term is "mental confusion".

You are born what you are born as.

People who are willing to mutilate themselves to "become to opposite sex" to me are really messed up in the head. Thats just how I feel about it.

All that media propaganda finally got to them?

It just seems extremely perverse to me.

Here is why I detest such a thing.

Because when I try to meet a woman and get a date, I don't want to be Tricked into dating some X-guy who had his thingy cut off. That's so wrong and so gross.

It's dishonesty and it's disgusting.

Sorry if you don't like my opinion and think I am bigoted or whatever, I really don't care.

I am disgusted at the prospect that I have to research a females' medical history before I can date her correctly. IT COULD BE A GUY! So gross seriously.

And I am 100% against "Trans Humanism" also. It's just as sick and twisted as the "Transsexual" junk.

This is a recent phenomena that is perpetuated by sick minded plastic surgeons or whatever they are. And the media, they definitely are brain washing people into believing in this crap.

It's screwing up everything. I can't date anyone without doing a full medical background check now.

Because I DO NOT accept dating a man who cut his thing off and took estrogen. Sick sick sick!

If you are offended by this, get real. Self-mutilation is NEVER ACCEPTABLE!

Oh well. If you wanna cut your thing than fine, cut it all you want. It's yours to cut. JUST BE HONEST with people you are dating, and TELL THEM UP FRONT ON DAY ONE! "OH I used to be whatever, but I sliced it up and took some pills/shots and now I'm this!"

Good topic though. One that should be discussed more often. Same goes with the abomination known as "trans-humanism". I am a Terran BTW.

reply to post by LordBucket


Well regarding hermaphrodites that's a tricky one, without knowing the medical in's and out's I'd say they are whatever sex they have the most respective hormone of but like I said I don't know the medical details.

I think you have basically agreed with my opinion regarding conditioning. Maybe people choose to believe they are in the wrong body because of certain external factors?

Therefore transsexualism doesn't exist, it's simply an individual choice chosen for whatever reason's.

As I've already mentioned, you have feminine blokes and masculine women but I don't see them jumping to have their bits cut off (or bits addedd)

reply to post by Death_Kron


Gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation. They are two entirely different things.

Look, I've read TONS of information about this and it's clear you haven't. If you really want the answers, if you REALLY want to understand, then read about the science (Yes, there is a gender identity gene).

If, on the other hand, you want to get support in denying that transsexualism is real and that it's "just not right", then you've come to the right place. There are plenty of straight people, born to the proper gender with all the right parts, who don't have a CLUE about transsexualism, who are more than willing to say that anyone different than them is weird and freaky and wrong.

Have fun with that.

[edit on 9/3/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

reply to post by muzzleflash


Got to agree with you there, personally I don't think it's right either.

There was an advert the other day on TV basically glorifying cosmetic surgery and I thought that was very wrong.

Different topic but related.

I do believe in transsexuals but I think its most common in Transylvania. Ask Meatloaf, I would bet he would agree with me.

I also believe in reincarnation and a book that I loved on it talked about how you could be more then one sex throughout your lives and your wife could be your mother in another life even. Based on that, I could see how we all probably have a chance that could happen.

I do think that some of this is based on society and where you live and grow up and who is around you.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by whoshotJR]

reply to post by LordBucket


OK, admittedly, your second paragraph is harder to draw lines with. Mostly because we do not know enough about our brain and hormonal systems. Are our attractions primarily from our brain, or are they primarily from hormonal urges? Would a brain transplant change a person's DNA?

It is just my opinion, but I think the brain from a female, put into a males body, would suddenly find herself very attracted to females! I think the body chemistry and DNA would override her experience as a female. I think her brain would adapt, and in a short while, she would be acting like a normal male.

As to where do we draw the line. I say the DNA defines gender, and life experience + hormones defines sexuality.

(For the record, I really, really, really wish it were possible for females to live a month or so in a male body. You guys really have NO IDEA about our sexual drive or urges! You would be amazed, appalled, and a little frightened to drive this body around for a month or so!)