Palestine - The greatest lie in history

Originally posted by vox2442

Originally posted by gravitational
what was it's currency

en.wikipedia.org...

Right !

Now, if you notice, that currency was under British mandate over the land, and it was also called ' Lira eretz Israelit' (Israeli pound).

A fact that very few people actually know is that before 1948 every citizen there was called a Palestinien. Yes, Jewish people as well as Arab. The Palestinian – as I stated before- originated from Palestina as it was named by the Romans.
I'll try and see if I can find some pictures showing pre 1948 ID cards.

Suddenly they were told to make way for another group of people. A sense of nationalism arose. I think we would all feel the same way if someone told us we had to move out of an area we had lived in for generations, where our ancestors were buried in the local cemetery, where generations were all born under the same roof.

Just because I defend the Palestinians doesn't mean I'm anti-Israel. It's an extremely complex situation.

edit: mods, forgive me if I didn't quote right.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Cobra5000]

Unfortunately, this is another misconception.

The Arabs that lived in what was about to become Israel, were never asked or forced to leave.
Those that were forced to leave or willingly left only did this after the beginning of the 48' war.
The war which started after the refusal of the Arab countries to the partition plan.

If you read the link at the beginning of the thread, Moshe dayan after the 67' war, asked the Arabs to stay.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by gravitational]

reply to post by Geemor


That is correct. The name Palestina was given by the Romans for political reasons.

Roman hegemony meant several political reorganizations of the country after Herod's death. The first great Jewish revolt (66-73 CE) ended in Roman victory in the course of which the Temple was destroyed (70 CE). The Romans now again reorganized the country, which was already designated the province of Judea (Provincia Iudaea).(12) Some 65 years later, however, in the year 135 CE, when the Emperor Hadrian's forces had suppressed the Jewish revolt led by Bar-Kokhba, the emperor renamed the province Provincia Syria Palaestina. The name change had obvious political implications. This becomes even clearer when we bear in mind that at the same time Hadrian forbid Jews to live in a large zone in the heart of Judea around Jerusalem. Furthermore, Rome planted colonists in the zone who belonged to various foreign peoples, chiefly Syrians and Arabs, according to Michael Avi-Yonah.(13) Another historian, Mary Smallwood, writes: "The bulk of the new settlers were Greco-Syrians."(14) Other colonists were veterans of the Roman legions, no doubt including many Europeans. The Arabs surely deserved a reward from the Romans since the Province of Arabia had "provided the Romans important military support in the suppression of the Bar-Kokhba Revolt and as we know contributed the only complete legion they had for this operation."

More reading here:
www.esek.com...

It's even more complecated than one might think, but it dosen't change the basic facts regarding Palestinians.

I applaud General Dyan....
The palestinians could have remained and many did....
What has occured since is mostly encouraged by the countries surrounding who wish to use the palestinians as dupes to continue to fight their own battles from 48.
A good deal of rhetoric and arms support has kept a conflict going for far too long.
Its too bad the the palestinian leaders used this situation to enrich themselves at the expense of the ordinary palestinians....
It is they who have nursed this conflict along with the support of other nations in order to maintain the same type of control and opportunity for themselves while empoverishing the ordinary people or "palestinians"....
Everywhere power is worshipped and fought for by those who hold it or those who want it....ALL THESE PEOPLE ARE MOSTLY SOCIOPATHS!
They suffer from a complex that remains unrecognised by psychology to the true extent it influences those who are sick with it.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by stirling]

Originally posted by gravitational
Oh boy, some of you are really talented in twisting reality.

Did you even bother reading anything I linked to?
The name Palestine has no connection what so ever with the present Muslims who call themselves Palestinians. Jeeezzz, have some decency and read before trying to twist everything to your liking.
Ever heard a palestinian saying he came from the Mediterranean sea and that he is not Arab Muslim? Show me one.
You can't have it both ways. Either they immigrated from The med or Arabia.

This part here I have a problem with.

Explain Egypt to me. It is a VERY relevant question in what you are trying to say.

Egypt is NOW a Muslim nation, previously part of the British Empire (as was Palestine), Previously part of the Ottoman Empire (As was Palestine), Previously part of the Roman Empire (as was Palestine). How did those Muslims get there? The histories of these 2 countries are quite similar. They have an intertwined history, yet only one deserves to be recognized.

reply to post by Rook1545


I'm afraid I fail to see the relevance.
Egyptians were never in dispute over land and borders with another people,
although, it is now believed that modern Egyptians were invaders.

The Egyptologists of the early 20th century concluded that the classic ancient Egyptian civilization had been brought to the Nile Valley by a "dynastic race" of invaders. They believed that the invaders were both culturally and politically superior to the native Prehistoric Egyptians, and that they swiftly established themselves as rulers of the country

www.touregypt.net...

Israel (Jewish people) has an undisputed historical and religious ties to the land since Biblical era, while those who call themselves Palestinians do not. A Muslim Palestine was born as part of the 'Pan – Arabism' movement and as a mean to prevent the Jewish people from returning to their homeland.

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Rook1545

 

I'm afraid I fail to see the relevance.
Egyptians were never in dispute over land and borders with another people,
although, it is now believed that modern Egyptians were invaders.

I think you fail to see that Egypt was a country like Palestine that was under occupation by the British empire, still it's one country just occupied. With Palestine however the British gov & U.N gave Palestine to a bunch of war vicitims with no claim to the land for over 1000 years, as many people have stated before me. That's the relevance you are ignoring.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by 1xion325alpha]

reply to post by gravitational


So by your definition we should give Australia back the the native Australians, America back to native Americans, africa back to africans?

It's the 20th century, that's our point.


[edit on 3-9-2010 by 1xion325alpha]

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Rook1545

 

I'm afraid I fail to see the relevance.
Egyptians were never in dispute over land and borders with another people,
although, it is now believed that modern Egyptians were invaders.

The Egyptologists of the early 20th century concluded that the classic ancient Egyptian civilization had been brought to the Nile Valley by a "dynastic race" of invaders. They believed that the invaders were both culturally and politically superior to the native Prehistoric Egyptians, and that they swiftly established themselves as rulers of the country

www.touregypt.net...

Israel (Jewish people) has an undisputed historical and religious ties to the land since Biblical era, while those who call themselves Palestinians do not. A Muslim Palestine was born as part of the 'Pan – Arabism' movement and as a mean to prevent the Jewish people from returning to their homeland.

Funny how there was still Jewish people living Palestine before it was Israel.

You ALSO fail to recognize that Muslims, being an Abrahamic religion, have those same religious ties to that region. In fact they have greater ties to that region since some the holy sites that they have around the area are newer the the old Jewish sites.

Explain to me why the Jews left? Why did they have to return? If it was in fact their land, why did they give it up? There should be no reason to dispute who's land it is if the Jewish ancestors hadn't left in the first place.

As to your first sentence, the Jewish people weren't in disputes over borders until the State of Israel was forcefully created. And as an aside, border disputes is one of the most common reasons for war, outside of religion, so I am pretty sure Egyptians went to war over border disputes...in fact I am pretty sure that happened in 1967...with Israel...

After WWII Europe collapsed, including Britain (therefore Britain couldn't stand up against the US, and the US became the Ayatollah of Britain), the US took control, and created Israel because the Zionist Jews helped the US conquer Europe, hence WWII started because of Jews..

LoL ok, so according to your logic, and what you just said........the Jews created WWII by helping the US take over Europe during WWII, how the hell does that time line work?

Wouldnt the Jews have to help the US take EUROPE first and THEN WWII start? Seems like you dont know your history or time lines......

I cant even begin to tell you how much is flawed in that statement.........

Just more anti semitic BS on these boards..........most of the time propagated by people who preach we should be tolerant.......funny that

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Rook1545

 

Israel (Jewish people) has an undisputed historical and religious ties to the land since Biblical era, while those who call themselves Palestinians do not. A Muslim Palestine was born as part of the 'Pan – Arabism' movement and as a mean to prevent the Jewish people from returning to their homeland.

If God is going by bloodlines, Many Isreali Jews are in trouble. The Jewish bloodline can be traced through the Y chromosome, which has led to the Palestinians being blood brothers.

reply to post by Rook1545


Why the Jews left??
Is that suppose to a be a joke or something?

Ever heard of Jews being exiled?
You do know of the deportation of most of the Jewish people from their homeland don't you?

What border dispute between Israel and Egypt?
Before 1967 The Sinai desert was entirely Egyptian.

Do us a favor and go read a good history book before writing more ignorant comments.

reply to post by gravitational


Excuse me my friend...but! those links of yours gave me a good laugh!

Sorry, but are you aware that the links you have provided in this thread are from Zionist organisations and is nothing more than Pro Zionist Propaganda!

1. PalestineFacts.org

About Palestine Facts (palestinefacts.org): Pro-Zionist review of the historical, political and military facts behind the State of Israel and the Israeli-Arab Palestinian conflict.

www.alexa.com...

Domain ID : D81676797-LROR

Domain Name: PALESTINEFACTS.ORG
Created On:27-Dec-2001 21:20:24 UTC
Last Updated On:18-Jun-2010 08:13:56 UTC
Expiration Date:27-Dec-2010 21:20:24 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:Network Solutions LLC (R63-LROR)
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:17703129-NSI
Registrant Name:ZOA
Registrant Organization:ZOA
Registrant Street1:4 East 34th St 3rd Fl.
Registrant Street2:
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:New York
Registrant State/Province:NY
Registrant Postal Code:10016
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.2124811500
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:+1.1231231234
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:

Ahh! ZOA - shall we take look what this can be then - any guesses?

The Zionist Organization of America (ZOA)

Is urging the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu not to accede to international and U.S. pressure, for a continuation of the 10-month freeze on Jewish construction in Judea and Samaria which the Netanyahu government imposed in November 2009.

www.zoa.org...


2. Masada2000

Masada2000 is apparently connected with some people from the The Jewish Defense League and is registered by Katz Global through Singapore. The server location of masada2000.org is Brea, CA, United States (US)

Masada2000 is a California-based Kahanist website created and maintained by people from the United States, Israel, Brazil, and Switzerland. Before 2001 the site was called Zion2000.

The site refers to Arab citizens of Israel and Palestinians as "cancer" and endorses their expulsion from Israel and the Occupied Territories.

According to its founders, it was established to counter "professional and deadly serious" websites with anti-Israel views. They also have said that the site will "expose Jews who genuinely despise Israel and the Jewishness it represents" and "'progressive' Jews who are into 'social justice' causes for everyone EXCEPT Israel's Jewish population."

Masada2000 is well-known for its vitriolic criticism of Jews it considers "self-hating." Among those singled out for particular scorn are Rabbi Michael Lerner, linguist Noam Chomsky, journalist Amira Hass, politician Dedi Zucker, professor Israel Shahak, and film-maker Woody Allen.

During 2007, Masada2000 repeatedly returned to service and was taken down. The latest bout involved the use of invalid whois information. Various complaints about this have been filed with ICANN.

en.wikipedia.org...

About Masada2000.org (masada2000.org): Presenting an Israeli perspective on regional history, advocating the forcible expulsion of all Palestinians from Israel and the occupied territories.

www.alexa.com...

So I don't know if any of the information you posted should be taken serious in this discussion since it's soley biased Pro Zionist Propaganda?

Do you possibly have any other links?

Peace!

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Chevalerous]

you can add canada, america, mexico, central america and pretty much all of south america. these are countries created out of thin air on land that historically, morally and culturally didn't originally belong to them and displacing the original habitants. why don't you start a thread on that $#@hole. the palestinians have more of right to live on that land that anybody in north and south america have rights to live on theirs. many people can trace their ancestory back to the time before moses and his wanderings in the desert.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by randomname]

there are very few actual ethnic jews, they are all russian or european bastardized versions of the original jews, since all that is required to be considered jewish is to have a mother that is jewish. this causes many mixed marriages where the father can be from the congo and the mother a russian jew and in the eyes of judaism the child is considered jewish.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by randomname]

reply to post by gravitational


Didn't bother to read the whole thread, just the OP.

Dear OP,

You're right! There is no such thing as "Palestinians", just Arabs who live in Palestine. I applaud you for trying to set the record straight.

Unfortunately, like most online conspiracy resources, ATS is FILLED with rabid anti-Semites who love to use the oppression of Palestinian Arabs as a justification for racial prejudice against Jews - and as convenient segway into their belief in a global Jewsish Conspiracy.

As a result of this bias, you are unlikely to receive much favor or applause for posting something like your thread. Expect to be ridiculed, but take ti in stride. I suggest not even trying to argue with those who make fun of you, because it's not the kind of debate that will convince anyone. When it comes to this issue, everyone seems to have already made up their minds, and no amount of evidence is going to convince anyone of anything.

I know it's sad, but there's very little you can do about it.

Rather than trying to counter every reply, I recommend singling out those individual replies that are OBVIOUSLY anti-Semitic in nature (and using the topic as an excuse to vent racial hatred) and calling them out for their racism. At the very least, you might bring enough public attention and shame on them to counter the insidious influence they have over others.


REMEMBER:

There are a lot of genuine people who have an incredible sympathy for the plight of Palestinian Arabs without an accompanying "hatred" of Jews/Israelis. These people support peace talks, moderation, and a TWO-STATE SOLUTION. THESE are the the people it is worth having a serious, constructive dialogue with.

P.s. (to those others reading this) If you are one of this kind of person, PLEASE let the OP know, and he might be interested in discussing the historical issues with you in an open-minded way that is willing to make concessions on both sides of the argument.


If, on the other hand, you are NOT one of these people who is open to compromise, concession, and two-state solution, but rather insist on the ABOLITION or destruction of the Jewish State in Palestine, I recommend this: Take a good hard look at yourself in the mirror, and ask yourself if it's possible that you have a racial prejudice against Jewish people.


I think that when it comes to issues like this, both sides could stand to do a little bit of reflective soul searching. There are GOOD PEOPLE on both sides of this debate, and there IS a common ground to be found in a two-state solution. THAT'S what we should be working towards!

Those who can't see this are just racist trolls, one way or another.


My two cents.


EDIT*** - p.p.s. S+F

[edit on 3-9-2010 by RedBird]

Originally posted by randomname
there are very few actual ethnic jews, they are all russian or european bastardized versions of the original jews, since all that is required to be considered jewish is to have a mother that is jewish. this causes many mixed marriages where the father can be from the congo and the mother a russian jew and in the eyes of judaism the child is considered jewish.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by randomname]

It is EXACTLY this type of opinion and comment that muddies the water and adds NOTHING constructive to the debate!

There is NO SUCH THING as a "Jewish" Ethnicity. It has nothing to do with race, blood, or birth! None whatsoever!

It is a RELIGION, and a CULTURE that people can choose to adopt if they were not born into it, and reject even if they were.

STOP confusing the issue with all this talk of "Fake" European Jews and the like! It's racist anti-Semitic nonsense! There's no such thing as a "Fake" Jew. If you convert to Judaism, and choose to follow the Torah and the Talmud, then you ARE a Jew! It's as simple as that!

Comments like your REALLY make me mad, because they trick people into thinking that being "Jewish" has something to do with birth and race and blood, which is absolutely NOT true. Hitler and the Nazis used the EXACT SAME arguments and justification during their ethnic cleansing of the German race, and they found out much to their own embarrassment that there is NO SUCH THING as an "Ethnic" Jew!

Originally posted by gravitational
reply to post by Rook1545

 

Why the Jews left??
Is that suppose to a be a joke or something?

Ever heard of Jews being exiled?
You do know of the deportation of most of the Jewish people from their homeland don't you?

What border dispute between Israel and Egypt?
Before 1967 The Sinai desert was entirely Egyptian.

Do us a favor and go read a good history book before writing more ignorant comments.

And you call me the ignorant one...

Following the 1st century Great Revolt and the 2nd century Bar Kokhba revolt, the destruction of Judea exerted a decisive influence upon the dispersion of the Jewish people throughout the world, as the centre of worship shifted from the Temple to Rabbinic authority. Some Jews were sold as slaves or transported as captives after the fall of Judea, others joined the existing diaspora, while still others remained in Judea and began work on the Jerusalem Talmud. For those Jews in the diaspora, they were generally accepted into the Roman Empire, but with the rise of Christianity, restrictions grew. Forced expulsions and persecution resulted in substantial shifts in the international centers of Jewish life to which far-flung communities often looked; although not always unified due to the Jewish people's dispersion itself. Experts dismiss the popular notion that the Jews were expelled or exiled from Palestine in the first century, in particular that this would have been a sudden event. The myth of exile from Palestine receives only minimal treatment in serious Jewish historical scholarship. ]

So if not even Jewish historians take it as an actual fact, why are you? Yup, that would be you looking the fool right now. Let's see if I can do it again...

The Six-Day War or June War (Hebrew: מלחמת ששת הימים, transliterated: Milhemet Sheshet Ha Yamim; Arabic: النكسة transliterated: an-Naksah (The Setback), or حرب 1967, Ḥarb 1967 (War of 1967)), also known as the 1967 Arab-Israeli War or the Third Arab-Israeli War, was fought between June 5 and June 10, 1967, by Israel and the neighboring states of Egypt [known then as the United Arab Republic (UAR)], Jordan, and Syria. At the war's end, Israel had seized the Gaza Strip and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt, the West Bank and East Jerusalem from Jordan, and the Golan Heights from Syria. The status of the Israeli-occupied territories and the concurrent refugee problem, are central concerns in the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, raising issues in international law, and having far-reaching consequences in global affairs

Well look at that, just like I said, in 1967, Egypt and Israel had a border dispute.

...so I am pretty sure Egyptians went to war over border disputes...in fact I am pretty sure that happened in 1967...with Israel...

Now next time, before you get all uppity and insulting, read the damned post, and know what the hell you are talking about. It obvious that it is YOU that needs read a good history book. Now put your helmet on and get back on the short bus and make the most of your public school education.

Originally posted by RedBird

There is NO SUCH THING as a "Jewish" Ethnicity. It has nothing to do with race, blood, or birth! None whatsoever!

It is a RELIGION, and a CULTURE that people can choose to adopt if they were not born into it, and reject even if they were.

STOP confusing the issue with all this talk of "Fake" European Jews and the like! It's racist anti-Semitic nonsense! There's no such thing as a "Fake" Jew. If you convert to Judaism, and choose to follow the Torah and the Talmud, then you ARE a Jew! It's as simple as that!

Comments like your REALLY make me mad, because they trick people into thinking that being "Jewish" has something to do with birth and race and blood, which is absolutely NOT true. Hitler and the Nazis used the EXACT SAME arguments and justification during their ethnic cleansing of the German race, and they found out much to their own embarrassment that there is NO SUCH THING as an "Ethnic" Jew!

So if Jewish is a state of spirituality and not race, how could that person be racist against Jews? You are contradicting yourself.

Originally posted by Geemor
the land was commonly called Palestine in history. There are plenty of maps available that speaks for it's behalf. i know you wont believe it, but as well as the original purpose of this thread was mere zionist propaganda, we may resort to counter-propaganda (sorries for the size of the picture):

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/b5f28484c6dccb9a.jpg[/atsimg]

the map is dated back to 1849 afaik. source is university of texas (library) see here.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Geemor]

Notice Judea on that map Mr. smarty pants? How about all the others like Galiea and Sumaria. The words are not Arabic!!! Thats all Jewish founded as most of Israel inside the region of Palestine. Palestine was massive and encompassed Jordan, Israel, Lebanon, and parts of Iraq.