The NY Mosque Controversy. Summed Up In One Picture.

reply to post by MrXYZ


I think that people have the right to protest the building of Mosques anywhere, and everywhere.

I think the right to protest the building of these mosques is more important than the right of religious freedom.

I think the fools are those who judge others for expressing their opinions.

Originally posted by Acid_Burn2009
It was humbling to be in the presence of that i-beam and as I ran my fingers over it, I could almost feel the pain and suffering of all those who perished on 9/11/01. If I told you a tear did not stream down my cheek I would be lying.

I can only imagine how powerful a moment that must have been.

I do believe the spirits of those that perished call for justice.

And two wars have brought them no closer to the justice they deserve nor will abasing our founding principles and the constitution.

I respect your service, you are patriot of the highest order and I have no doubt your personal service made a difference to the people of Iraq.

I have a brother on his third tour in Afghanistan.

But the memory of those that perished on 9-11 is not served by misplaced blame or the repeal of the same "freedoms" that terrorists see as such a dire threat..

Two wars and a million speeches and those that perished are still waiting for true justice and all they see is America devouring itself and politicians defiling thier memory with opportunistic rhetoric.

Nobody even bothers to ask anymore...where is Osama Bin Laden?

[edit on 3-9-2010 by maybereal11]

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by getreadyalready

 

I think a lot of people are of the religious belief that we should not tolerate Islam.

Don't you think we should respect their religious beliefs as well?

100%

As others have said, even if you buy the story that a group of radical Muslims attacked the WTC. It is still just 11 men. There are far more than 11 regular US Christians at this very moment that are causing harm and chaos and injury and death to someone near them.

I don't believe it was a radical group of Muslims that attacked the WTC, and neither does the FBI. That is why Bin Laden is still not wanted for that attack, he is wanted for earlier attacks.

But, even if I did believe it, I would condemn those men, not the entire religion.

Now, I have said in the past that I feel a "jihad" is a direct threat against me as an infidel, and I feel justified in defending myself against such a stated threat. Therefore, I have very little respect for the ruling elite of the Muslim religion, but here in my little neck of the woods, I know plenty of peace-loving Muslims, and I respect them, and as long as they don't try to jihad me, I won't limit their rights or freedoms either.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

I think the right to protest the building of these mosques is more important than the right of religious freedom. (emphasis mine)

Am I reading this correctly? You believe that the "right" to inhibit a freedom is more important than the actual freedom itself?






[edit on 9/3/10 by Hefficide]

reply to post by poet1b


They have mosques all over the country. They have chaplains in the military. There are cases of christains being excluded from events where muslims are present. This is hardly an issue of toleration of muslims in the US.

Originally posted by getreadyalready

Originally posted by poet1b

No, I am pointing out that a cartoon showing stripper bars and a porn shop in proximity to the WTC site, and the proposed Mosque, are hypocrites because they are casting moral judgment on strip joints and porn shops.

Here is a deal, they can build the mosque, if we can open stripper bars and porn shops in Mecca.

Mecca makes no claim to be tolerant or "free." They do not abide by our Constitution. There is no hypocrisy involved. Our entire nation is built on the foundation of religious freedom and equal opportunity.

We make plenty of mistakes as individuals, and as a nation, but we have to strive to uphold the ideals that made us what we are. I don't expect the ruling elite of the Muslim faith to act the same way that I would, and I refuse to be less tolerant, just because they are. I will continue to take the high road as much as possible.

Isn't it somewhat 'islamophobic' to denigrate the Religious leaders of the cradle of Islam as less tolerant, and not as 'free' as you? Doesn't that imply a sentiment of superiority on your part?

reply to post by Hefficide


That is not at all what I said.

I said, I think the right to protest a religion is more important than the right of freedom of religion.

You can worship any god you like, but you don't have the right to stop others from disagreeing with your religious beliefs.

Originally posted by poet1b

I think the right to protest the building of these mosques is more important than the right of religious freedom.

They are equal and not mutually exclusive.

I am all for the right to protest the building of the Mosque.

I also vehemently disagree with the rhetoric and will point out it's falsehoods at my liesure..this is America.

I draw the line at the literal calling for an editing of our constitution to repeal Freedom of Religion. Our founding fathers gave thier lives to defend this right and made it a pillar of this nation and it means more to me than the towers...it is the very principle that the terrorists are threatened by most, and I will be damned if I will cede that to them....ever...not in the USA....

reply to post by poet1b


You are already free to protest any and all religion as you see fit. Just as you are free to exercise whatever religious beliefs you might choose.

What is to be gained by raising one freedom over the other?

Are you saying that people should be free to worship only if others choose not to protest that worship?

Even in my confusion of your meaning, I feel like this is a very slippery slope to be walking upon.

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by Hefficide

 

That is not at all what I said.

I said, I think the right to protest a religion is more important than the right of freedom of religion.

You can worship any god you like, but you don't have the right to stop others from disagreeing with your religious beliefs.

You do realize no one would force anyone to visit that mosque, right? The visitors to the memorial site can't even see the mosque.

So if I found a possy of 1000 people protesting in front of churches because some priests are child molesters...and I'd demand that the church gets demolished, that would be fine with you, right?

Seriously, the Christian intolerance that's been growing in the US makes me wanna puke!

It is quite simple.

One persons freedom of religion doesn't mean that others can not protest against that religion.

The state can not make laws against that religion, or sanction one religion over another, but the people certainly can protest against the religion.

Lets say someone built a temple for a religion that believed in human sacrifice. Are you saying people shouldn't protest?

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

By not building that mosque, Muslims would admit guilt...and they're just NOT guilty of anything.

Not at all. I think that by NOT building this mosque, the people who want to build the mosque would be showing that they respect the wishes of the people of NY, and the U.S..

Building this mosque is only fanning the flames of hatred.

Is that smart, or is that stupid?

Remember when all them black people protested in the 50s and 60s? That certainly fueled alot of anger and resentment amongst popular opinion...would you be the type of person that would suggest they should simply stop protesting and respect the will of the people over their own personal rights to keep everything right?

Does that make you a racist?

Its pretty clear cut...they have every right to build a mosque there, or a strip club, or a strip mosque, or anything else they can ponder (I bet a coat factory would be great there...)..and everyone can turn blue in the face with anger that America works....the "real americans" are telling the pseduo-americans to suck it up, this is what the country is about.

so...

suck it up

Originally posted by poet1b
Lets say someone built a temple for a religion that believed in human sacrifice. Are you saying people shouldn't protest?

Thats called the christian church (He died for your sins!)...

and I agree, we collectively should protest the blood god churches...they litter the landscapes and all sorts.

now, if they were actually murdering people in the church...then thats not a protest issue, thats a legal issue...would be hard to protest a crime scene.

So someone posted this in a thread on the same topic and now it's been reposted in an entirely new thread of it's own? Ah, whatever.

The situation with the Mosque is quite...silly.
The people who actually protest the Culture Center "near" ground zero are disgusting and hypocritical.

Not sure why this is even a debate anymore. It's a fight between the logical and illogical.

I hadn't realized there was already a mosque situated near where the construction is taking place.

Why aren't people asking for this mosque to be removed if there's such controversy over the new Islamic Centre?

reply to post by SaturnFX


Actually, popular opinion supported the civil rights movement, and many of the religious nutcases opposed civil rights.

Real Americans stand up for their beliefs.

There are many fundamental beliefs held by Muslims that directly contradict the principles of the U.S., and fighting to protect the principles of our nation is very much a cause worth fighting for.

The same goes for all religious wackos, of all religions.

Originally posted by SeventhSeal
It's a fight between the logical and illogical.

all fights are a fight between logical and illogical

problem is, everyone is sure they are on the logical side

Originally posted by LarryLove
I hadn't realized there was already a mosque situated near where the construction is taking place.

Why aren't people asking for this mosque to be removed if there's such controversy over the new Islamic Centre?

You actually answered your question with your observation (or lack thereof).

The reason why its not being protested, is because some wingnut talk show host or politician hasn't told the flock to be outraged over it...

a tool is only as effective as the mechanic weilding it.

reply to post by loOranks

Isn't it somewhat 'islamophobic' to denigrate the Religious leaders of the cradle of Islam as less tolerant, and not as 'free' as you? Doesn't that imply a sentiment of superiority on your part?

I only stated facts. If you took it as my religion being superior to their religion, then that is something you need to address.

The fact is, Islam is not at all tolerant of other religions. It is also a fact that many of the Imans and religious leaders continually call for Jihad more succinctly put as "death to infidels."

Again, I only state facts, and I stated that I do not condemn them for their actions, or expect them to act the same way that I would. I believe they have a right to put the Mosque in NYC, and I do not believe that they have to allow a strip club in Mecca. It is not important that they show reciprocity for our tolerance. We are comparing apples and oranges.

If the stating of those facts comes across as one way being better than the other, that is not my problem. If I state that Florida has 200+ days of sunshine and an average ambient temperature of 71 degrees, and I state that Minot, ND has an ambient temperature of 40 degrees and an average wind speed of 35 mph throughout the year, and you decide that you would rather live in Florida, that is not my problem. I have only stated facts.

reply to post by SaturnFX


So you are saying that Christians believe in practicing human sacrifice?

Wow, that is a pretty twisting interpretation of Christianity.

What if this religion that believes in human sacrifice to their god, doesn't practice sacrificing humans at their place of worship?

Say, one of the followers every now and then gets caught having sacrificed some person, and the main church denounces the perp as an extremist, who doesn't represent the church.