The NY Mosque Controversy. Summed Up In One Picture.

I was torn on the issue until yesterday.

Until yesterday I was torn between 2 factors:
1. Our country was founded upon freedom of religion and not allowing them to
build the mosque could be construed as infringing upon one's right to
practice any religion they want.

2. While I don't completely buy the official story put out by the Gov't about
911, I personally believe it was carried out by muslim extremists and to
build such a mosque so close to ground zero would be a slap in the face
to everyone that has lost a loved one in the tragedy. Yes, I know there
is, and has been a mosque there for some time. So don't throw that one
at me.

What made me change my mind?

Yesterday I was involved in something that brought the local communities together. An I-beam from the World Trade Center is being used in a monument to the fallen here in my neck of the woods. the I-beam was on a trailer being towed by a Police SUV and the percession of police cars, fire trucks and ambulances was about 1/4 mile long. Pretty good for a few small communities banding together.

I was in my volunteer fire department's ladder truck and the streets were lined with immense amounts of people. Many had signs and flags. Many were shedding tears as the percession drove by with the WTC I beam. Many
saluted the entire percession.

When we arrived at our destination (Town hall where the monument will be erected and unveiled on 9/11) there was a small ceremony. A Minister said a few prayers and blessed the i-beam with holy water.

During the ride up, escorting the i-beam and seeing the emotions of your average ordinary everyday US citizen made me realize that the building of a mosque at ground zero is a bad idea and just plain wrong. I can only assume that most of the people gathered to see the i-beam did not have friends or relatives that perished that day...but I may be wrong.

Either way, it was quite an experience and one I will never forget. It was humbling to be in the presence of that i-beam and as I ran my fingers over it, I could almost feel the pain and suffering of all those who perished on 9/11/01. If I told you a tear did not stream down my cheek I would be lying.

I am an Operation Iraqi Freedom Veteran twice over. I left the Marine Corps about 8 months ago. I am now involved in my local volunteer fire department and working as a paid EMT in several local towns.

reply to post by Acid_Burn2009


In case nobody else says this, I want to personally thank you for your service to this Nation and to your community. There is no higher calling than to serve and you obviously have earned our respect. I honestly and truly admire you and all that you've done for others.

Regardless of any differences of opinion that I, or others may have, I hope that we can all honor what you've done for us.

Thank you.

reply to post by Acid_Burn2009


So, emotions override the First Amendment in your opinion. Is this what I read in your post?

I mean, if building the mosque is a bad idea and wrong, as you say, then suppressing Freedom of Religion must be good and the right thing to do... Right?


[edit on 9/3/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

That picture is perfect.

I came accross it a few days ago and forwarded it to several of my contacts.

Distract, divide and conquer.

Watching the news lately I really have to question if the goal is not to slowly set the groundwork for a scapegoat. Reports from countries all over the world seem to suggest that this is the case...get people fired up in the hopes that they'll eagerly accept ALL Muslims as being the source of all the worlds problems.

Gotta have an enemy.



[edit on 3-9-2010 by [davinci]]

reply to post by Hefficide


Thanks Heff!

On behalf of my fellow Service members, Fireman and EMS workers...Thank You.

It is something that I did before the military and I just can't seem to get away from it.

When a stranger comes up to you and shakes your hand, or wraps his arms around you to hug you and thank you for saving his posessions from a fire...
or saving his Dad's life is just an unbelievable feeling.

After seeing what I saw yesterday, I just can't agree with the building of that mosque.

Originally posted by Acid_Burn2009
After seeing what I saw yesterday, I just can't agree with the building of that mosque.

But they have the right. The Constitutional right. Can you agree with that? Do you support their Constitutional right???

Hey, I'd like to thank you for your service, but if you weren't fighting for our freedom and our way of life, WTF were you doing? If you can come back here and deny someone their freedom because of their religion, where are your priorities?

My understanding is that the community center/mosque is 5 blocks away from GZ. 5 blocks away. Go look out your window and tell me what is happening 5 blocks away from your house. When you get to work, before walking into the building look around and describe the buildings, and the business conducted there, 5 blocks away from your job site.

Ground Zero debris wasn't pushed aside to make room for this community center/mosque, and nobody is denying that 9-11 wasn't horrific and tragic. My youngest brother was killed in a car accident when he was 20 years old. If the driver of the car that killed him wanted to move in 5 blocks away, it wouldn't hurt my heart in the least. I doubt I'd even know he was there.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Acid_Burn2009

 

So, emotions override the First Amendment in your opinion. Is this what I read in your post?

I mean, if building the mosque is a bad idea and wrong, as you say, then suppressing Freedom of Religion must be good and the right thing to do... Right?


[edit on 9/3/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

You obviously missed the entire point behind my post.

I had a few paragraphs written but opted to delete. I will not stoop to your insensitivity and ignorance.

I guess if you don't go through something personally it gives you the right to be callous and insensitive.


***Also to add:
There is an Islamic Community center exactly 1 block from my ambulance station. Do you hear me complaining about that? It is also not anywhere near where some terrorists decided to fly a few planes into some buildings either.***

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Acid_Burn2009]

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Acid_Burn2009]

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Acid_Burn2009]

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Acid_Burn2009]

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Acid_Burn2009]

reply to post by Acid_Burn2009


But "insensitivity" is the tool being used to tell people that it's OK to deny certain people their rights.

I'm a very sensitive person. I feel TERRIBLE for anyone who loses a loved one and I would have cried right along with you at the procession. I think it's really cool what they're doing.

But how can that override our Constitutional rights? You, of all people, should feel a strong resolve to protect and honor the Constitution and I am truly baffled at how you can cast it aside and let the emotional side of this issue take precedence. I'm puzzled. I'd like to understand.

Brushing off my questions and telling me you're not going to respond because I'm "insensitive" is just cowardly, IMO.

Can't say a whole lot, except Star and Flag!

That pic sums everything up very nicely. Even among Conservatives and Tea Partiers like me, if we really understand what we stand for, and if we are truly concerned with the welfare of the nation, then we should understand that we are fighting for the right of someone to build a Mosque right there.

People may not realize, but Muslims are very Patriotic inside the US, they have a very positive outlook for our Nation's future, they believe hardwork can get them ahead in our "land of opportunity," and they trust our government even more than the average American, or American Christian does. If you don't believe me, check out this PEW Poll. It was eye opening for me!!

Hope this formats correctly:
edited out table that won't work. The report is 108 page .pdf file with a lot of tables and graphs. Any idea how to get some of the data into a post? I am on my work computer and I don't have any cool software to grab data.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by Acid_Burn2009
I guess if you don't go through something personally it gives you the right to be callous and insensitive.

I lost a baby, I've lost both my parents, I had breast cancer and stared death in the face. Don't tell me I haven't experienced what it takes to be sensitive.

**Where did I say they don't have the right?

That's why I ASKED you if they have the right. I ASKED:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But they have the right. The Constitutional right. Can you agree with that? Do you support their Constitutional right???

The above is a QUESTION. See the question marks?? Is it OK to ASK?

So, your answer is that they DO have the right and you support their right. Is that correct?? (The preceding is a question to clarify your position.)

[edit on 9/3/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
reply to post by Acid_Burn2009

 

But "insensitivity" is the tool being used to tell people that it's OK to deny certain people their rights.

I'm a very sensitive person. I feel TERRIBLE for anyone who loses a loved one and I would have cried right along with you at the procession. I think it's really cool what they're doing.

But how can that override our Constitutional rights? You, of all people, should feel a strong resolve to protect and honor the Constitution and I am truly baffled at how you can cast it aside and let the emotional side of this issue take precedence. I'm puzzled. I'd like to understand.

Brushing off my questions and telling me you're not going to respond because I'm "insensitive" is just cowardly, IMO.

Cowardly?

I guess it's cowardly to spend a total of 26 months in Iraq.

I guess it's cowardly to run into a burning building.

I guess it's cowardly to jump inside a wrecked car to hold stabilization of someone's head while the jaws of life are cutting a car literally inches from your head.

I guess it's cowardly to go into a hostage situation as an EMT to take out an injured person because the hostage taker is allowing it.

But I digress.

Where in my post did I say that they do not have the right?
Sure they have the right to do so.
If you care to reread my post, I said it was wrong.

Doing something because it's right is way different then doing it because you have the right to.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
reply to post by tothetenthpower

 

i agree. period. S&F.


why don't we just build something there everyone will disagree upon?

a huge statue of Mohommad. some people love contraversy, too much.


[edit on 3-9-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]

We build a statue of Jesus, Vishnu, Buddha and Muhammad all duking it out in Godzilla like fashion, all cast in bronze... I mean that's what's it's come down to. And at the bottom of the statue we put one single bronze person scratching there head, with a confused look on their face.

reply to post by getreadyalready


Here is the Pew Research Paper on Muslims in the US

Here is the complete .pdf file for the report. It is a very nice report with good narratives, and I think you will be surprised at how the Muslim population in general is on the same page as the rest of the country when it comes to adapting local customs, using their own initiative and hard work to get ahead, and supporting the government.

Also surprising that Discrimination is not a concern that they put much thought into, nor is it anything that has happened personally to the respondents.

After reading that Research Report, I am quite convinced that everything we see on the news, is just made for TV drama, and not a reflection of real life!!

[edit on 3-9-2010 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by Acid_Burn2009
I guess it's cowardly to spend a total of 26 months in Iraq.

No. I said NONE of that. I said that brushing off my questions and telling me you're not going to respond because I'm "insensitive" is cowardly, IMO. Jeez. Go overboard, why don't you?

Where in my post did I say that they do not have the right?
Sure they have the right to do so.

You DIDN'T. That's why I asked. Do you understand how discussion works?

If you care to reread my post, I said it was wrong.

I know. I read it.

Doing something because it's right is way different then doing it because you have the right to.

I agree. But I think you're taking a position contrary to the Constitutional rights of members of this country, and I'm confused how a veteran could take that position. You said you were undecided between the RIGHTS of these people and what was the right thing to do. You've chosen to support "the right thing to do" instead of supporting their Constitutional rights.

That's what I got from your first post and I've been trying to discern whether or not I understand your position correctly. And you've been weaseling around the issue and not answer my direct questions.

Maybe you just don't want to come out and say, "No, I do not support their Constitutional right." OR "YES, I support their Constitutional right, I just don't like what they're doing". But it seems to me that you must take one stand or the other. After all, those are the two positions YOU put in your first post here. And you chose one over the other. Is it any wonder I'm confused?

reply to post by Benevolent Heretic


Ok, to make this abundantly clear for you.

YES, they have to right to do so.

NO, I don't agree with it...it is wrong.

I hope that is clear enough for you. Stop twisting things to suit your needs.


[edit on 3-9-2010 by Acid_Burn2009]

Great picture, sums it up completely.

The Mosque at Ground Zero "controversy" was simply a distraction.

Notice how the press went rabid about it for about two weeks, now you hardly hear about it in the MSM?

Quite simply, who cares?

It's the MSM drumming up hatred against muslims, in exactly the same way that the Nazi propoganda machine drummed up hatred towards Jews in the 1930's. We all know where that ended.

And for the record, I am neither Muslim, Jewish, or Christian.,

Originally posted by Acid_Burn2009
reply to post by Benevolent Heretic

 

Ok, to make this abundantly clear for you.

YES, they have to right to do so.

NO, I don't agree with it...it is wrong.

I hope that is clear enough for you. Stop twisting things to suit your needs.
[edit on 3-9-2010 by Acid_Burn2009]

I think I agree with you on this point. They definitely have the "right" to build the Mosque, and nobody should stop them from doing so. On the other hand, it seems to be in poor taste, and a bad PR move. I don't think they should do it, but it is their choice and their right.

Maybe, I hope, just maybe, this will work out to be an enlightening experience. They have promised to make the Mosque open to all religions, and it is possible that they can get past this initial backlash and turn the whole thing into a positive representation of Muslims in NYC. Maybe they will honor the dead, and honor the Public Servants that valiantly tried to save lives, and lost many of their own. Maybe they will criticize the needless loss of life, and vow to never let hit happen again in the name of their religion.

I would agree with the poster who used the phrase "Divide and Conquer".

If you find any sort of "Unification" of the people of America from this debate you are missing the bigger picture.

We are talking about the CONSTITUTION! The GREATEST and MOST IMPORTANT set of rules that our country has to work with.

I am labeled an Atheist (I despise the term) and the ONLY thing that allows me to have my beliefs (or lack thereof) is the fact that there are MULTIPLE religious beliefs in this country.

Once The Muslims go down next it will be the Scientologists, then the Mormons, than the Jehovah Witnesses, then all the others. I support multiple religions because it is the only thing that allows me to reject them all. Without you crazy nuts I would not be allowed to voice my own opinions.

This will be one of the greatest tests our Country will ever face. The face of religious persecution in the year 2010.

Either we all hang together, or we all hang separately. And if you think that YOUR religion will be the last one standing you sure better hope that you are right. Because by the time you find out you are wrong it will be too late for anyone else to stick up for you.

Originally posted by Acid_Burn2009
I hope that is clear enough for you.

Thank you. I absolutely understand. I think what Fred Phelps does is WRONG, but I support his right to do so 100%. So, I understand your position better than you may think. I just couldn't decipher it from your posts. Perhaps that's my fault, but I was really trying to understand.

I'm sorry if what I had to say was worrying to you, but I do think it's important to get right down to what we think about this and other freedom issues. I see our friends at FOX trying to make this some sort of "American Values" thing, as if the right thing to do should override our rights and it scares me! I don't want to see our servicemen and women casting the Constitution aside for ANYTHING, no matter how emotional.