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3 Species of man? 80 000 years?

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posted on Sep, 2 2010 @ 11:09 PM
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Well, one thing the movie reminded me of that I'm confused about - when did Homo Erectus become Neanderthals or Cro-Magnon (apparently Homo Sapiens).
Simply put, from what I read, Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal man had a common Homo Erectus ancester. The one went to Europe, and the other developed in Africa and Asia, until they eventually crossed paths as virtually seperate species.
But, is this even feasible?
What about different races - were there different races of Neanderthals?
Apparently many Chinese Paleo-Anthropologists believe they did not come out of Africa but evolved seperately from Homo Erectus.
Not everybody shares our politically correct post-1970 view of human evolution.
And, what do the religions say?
Were these other species the "pre-Adamic" races, for example?




posted on Sep, 2 2010 @ 11:15 PM
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Well, the movie makes me think pooh-pooh to them.
They were big and brawny, and monsters to our ancestors.
Indeed - the pre-Internet Trolls.
I wouldn't like to live close to them, or have them close to my kids.
From what one hears the Bigfoot and Almas were not much liked by native societies either.
So it's probably a case of good riddence, and thank you ancestors for getting rid of them.
Goodbye, and good riddence!



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 12:13 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 

I wonder: why do we suddenly have so much interest in prehistory and whether Neanderthal man bred with our ancestors?
Wasn't that simply reuniting Homo Erectus in any case?

There's very little interest in the common ancestor. This suggests that our obsession with Neanderthal admixture is partially cultural, and points to our post-colonial mentality.



[edit on 3-9-2010 by halfoldman]



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 12:42 AM
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Are you sure you don't mean 3 races and not 3 species?

Maybe the three races of Man evolved from previous versions/upgrades.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 01:12 AM
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reply to post by Alxandro
 

Possibly yeah.
There are theories of very regional evolution.
But ultimately, no, I'm not sure what divides "races" of mankind from "species" of mankind.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 01:33 AM
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Okay, apparently there was a sub-species of Homo erectus Homo erectus soloensis that persisted in Java up until as recently as 50,000 years ago (elsewhere Homo erectus seems to have died out 400,000 years ago). Whether or not they existed anywhere else as well is unknown.

The filmmakers may have had these guys in mind when they added them to the film - just taking a bit of a leap that maybe some existed elsewhere in the world as well (which is possible, I suppose). The setting for the movie must have been what is now either Europe or the Middle East, because that was the range of Neanderthals who probably first evolved in Europe during the last major Ice Age (they were very suited to Ice Age conditions).

[edit on 9/3/2010 by LifeInDeath]



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 01:42 AM
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reply to post by LifeInDeath
 

Thanks for that.
That would be amazing.
It's now assumed that the first migration out of Africa was dark-skinned and reached Australia 70 000 years ago.
That means when Homo Sapiens reached Australia there were still other species of man about?
So our contact with them may have been more recent than we think.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 01:45 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
There are theories of very regional evolution.
But ultimately, no, I'm not sure what divides "races" of mankind from "species" of mankind.

A race is basically the same as saying a different breed. All are genetically so close they are classified as the same species. Mate two members of different races or breeds and they absolutely will produce viable offspring. Whether it's dogs or humans or finches, this is always the case.

Now, mate two members of different but closely related species and they may or may not produce viable offspring, depending on how genetically distinct they are. There's no sharp dividing line, as sometimes you can get members of two closely related species to produce viable offspring and sometimes not.

Lions and tigers are different species because even though they can successfully mate and produce offspring (ligers and tigons, depending which is the mother and father), those offspring are pretty much always sterile and can't have their own offspring, which is what is meant when one says they aren't "viable" offspring, like mules which are horse/donkey hybrids. It's thought that if a human and a chimp were to mate they might be able to produce a non-viable offspring because we are that close to them genetically.

Now, based on recent genetic experiments where we've compared human and recovered Neanderthal DNA, we've found that most Europeans and some in surrounding regions have small amounts of Neanderthal DNA in their make-up, up to 4% - far more than was thought possible before the experiments were done. This means Cro-Magnons in these regions mated with Neanderthals and produced viable offspring, so by definition, Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons are probably sub-species of the same overall species. Maybe a bit more distinct than breeds, but not different species. There had been debate before this experiment as to whether Neanderthals and Homo sapiens could produce viable offspring but it appears we could and did.

[edit on 9/3/2010 by LifeInDeath]



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 01:55 AM
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www.google.co.nz... ent=opera&rls=en&q=contemporaneous+hominids&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

There have been instances of contemporaneous hominid species. The link above is a good place to start, and there are peer-reviewed articles there too.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 02:00 AM
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reply to post by LifeInDeath
 

Would that interbreeding only go for Neanderthal man, or other Homo species as well?
Or were we the only alternative species of Homo Erectus at the time?



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 02:19 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
Would that interbreeding only go for Neanderthal man, or other Homo species as well?

Or were we the only alternative species of Homo Erectus at the time?

Well, that wiki article suggested that erectus might have been "absorbed" by Homo sapiens when we encountered them, which suggests that maybe we did breed with them - at least in theory. It all depends on how genetically disparate they were from us. I don't think we have found any erectus DNA to work from to do the kinds of tests we were able to do with Neanderthal DNA. Neanderthals persisted up until much, much more recently than did erectus, so their bones and teeth are more likely to still contain good traces of the stuff.

I think it's believed that both Neanderthal and Homo sapiens descended from erectus, who go way, way back hundreds of thousands of years. So, by definition there would have been some point at which some erectus baby stopped being erectus and became the earliest Neanderthal or Homo sapien. Later on, we may or may not still have been able to breed with them, depending on how far we had drifted from them genetically - same goes for Neanderthals.

Homo florenseis is thought to maybe be a very diminutive version of erectus, or at least closely related, so again that's another possibility.



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 02:26 AM
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Clan of the Cave Bear - An interpretation of how Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon may have mixed (not so romantic, but still non-pg rated).
Daryl Hannah gets picked up by a clan of Neanderthals, and grows up to fight for women's rights, before leaving a half-breed child.
www.youtube.com...

You go girl!

[edit on 3-9-2010 by halfoldman]



posted on Sep, 3 2010 @ 02:32 AM
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reply to post by LifeInDeath
 

I've seen it mooted in some not so politically correct websites, that facially Neanderthal admixture meant a reclining of the chin and jaw.
Other Erectus admixture however points to the more robust jaw and flattened nose.
Who nose ... er... knows?
Thats kinda bringing modern eugenics into history.
But it's interesting nevertheless.



posted on Sep, 5 2010 @ 12:13 PM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 

Reviewing film and prehistory, I wonder whether a Homo Sapiens (Cro-Magnon) woman could have given birth to a hybrid Neanderthal child.
Their skulls were bigger.
If we did mix, that fact alone makes it more likely that Neanderthal women had the mixed kids.
Thus the film of the raped "blonde" woman was (as in most of colonialism) actually vice-versa. Our men raped their women.
Oh but we never like showing that!
How curious.



posted on Sep, 5 2010 @ 12:38 PM
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It is suggested that both Neanderthal and Homo Sapiens lived in the same era, but Sapiens were nomadic in nature, and so with the Ice Age the Neanderthal die off while the Sapiens headed south with the herds. We almost die off too and with our small gene pool it is estimated that less than 10,000 of us were around a few times in our past.

Just think though if we had actually two different races of humans today….



posted on Sep, 5 2010 @ 01:04 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 

Perhaps we might?
It is not agreed that all races come from one "out-of-Africa" Homo Sapiens. Some could have developed from Asian Homo Erectus.
If we could breed with Neanderthals - a "different species" by definition - then how do we know that breeding with different races isn't breeding with different species?
It sounds very racist, but only if former "colonist" whites say this - however, when other groups say so about us whites it seems totally acceptible.
Nevertheless, we are supposedly the 4% Neanderthal admixture.
We've had quite an update of Neanderthal Man had since then, from beastly brute to quasi-human.



posted on Sep, 5 2010 @ 02:02 PM
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reply to post by Xtrozero
 

Just think though if we had actually two different races of humans today….

Perhaps only in the context in that we expect all variations of "Homo Sapiens" to be equal.
Women and men are arguably already biologically different.
Yet, at least politically that difference is minimized.
Racially, the conditions of societies are very different, largely (and embarrassingly) contingent on race. Most people would say this difference is a hiccup from colonialism - a view I would support. Others are not so sure. Suffice to say that proof for interbreeding between between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons raises as many questions as it solves.
Superficially it's all supposed to demonstrate the universality of humanity. I'm not so sure that's what it does however.



posted on Sep, 5 2010 @ 05:35 PM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by Xtrozero
 

Perhaps we might?
It is not agreed that all races come from one "out-of-Africa" Homo Sapiens. Some could have developed from Asian Homo Erectus.
If we could breed with Neanderthals - a "different species" by definition - then how do we know that breeding with different races isn't breeding with different species?
It sounds very racist, but only if former "colonist" whites say this - however, when other groups say so about us whites it seems totally acceptible.
Nevertheless, we are supposedly the 4% Neanderthal admixture.
We've had quite an update of Neanderthal Man had since then, from beastly brute to quasi-human.



There is a good chance that we could not if the branch off was back far enough and it looks like it was. Can a chimp breed with an orangutan? It is interesting how we have one species of man, but many different monkeys… makes one wonder.



posted on Sep, 5 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
Suffice to say that proof for interbreeding between between Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons raises as many questions as it solves.
Superficially it's all supposed to demonstrate the universality of humanity. I'm not so sure that's what it does however.



Yes one theory is they both disappeared into modern man, but on the other hand they were quite different in bone structure as in length and density along with a different cranium, muscle size and so on. Both seem to have intelligence of around the same level in the ability to make tools and farming etc, but we do not know the differences in the higher levels of thinking.

Today it is a good chance that we all basically came from the one species out of Africa with Caucasians of the north and eastern Asians as the farthest branches away ( 4 to 5 branches away) from that original group, so maybe everyone died, but one lone group in southern Africa.

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Xtrozero]



posted on Sep, 5 2010 @ 06:15 PM
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I believe that they cross bred and ended up with a high breed race. humans! it has been mixing for so long it would be very hard to see this in the DNA. why do people find things like this so hard to believe in? they like to think they are very spatial. so they say we where made by a God. they dont like to think that they just groow from sludge!



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