Stephen Hawking: God didn't create universe

I like that the kid is still getting his books published.

As far as the whole God did or didn't create the universe debate is concerned - the universe exists, and it came into existence. No one actually knows how it came into existence, or in what full manner it actually exists. There are theories concerning Dark Matter and Dark Energy that attempt to explain why Galactic arrangements and positions maintain their integrity, but these are only attempts to impose a plausible explanation by way of scaling what can be ascertained to a point where reasonable assumption can take over. It's all conjecture.

No one believes that the theories concerning this level of cosmological structure are proven or even provable. But then, what's wrong with human beings taking intellectual chances with this stuff? It's right there in front of us, and it doesn't damage anyone or anything to wonder about it and offer suggestions. Some successful career have been built on flat-out making these sorts of things up, but then, is that worse than a career built on telling jokes onstage in a nightclub? Both are entertaining.

God may or may not exist. This is and always has been a matter of faith, and the more responsible theologians will insist that it is imperative to the divine plan that God existence remains unproven and unprovable. Successful career have been built on interpreting what old documents meant to imply about the nature and intent of God. Meanwhile, the evidence indicates that there are no documents that exist that could be offered as legal-standard proof concerning the claims made in those documents, or even the authenticity of the information's human authorship. That the information was inspired by God isn't even substantiatable to the degree where the claim can be tested. Much like the more adventurous theories concerning the size and structure of the known universe.

What I love about this subject is that everyone is free to pick up the pieces and fit them together in whatever configuration works. There is no post-graduate degree you can earn in discovering a new way to configure those pieces, and that means that anyone could end up cracking this case. In fact, the next Einstein might be reading this thread right now as he or she is nudging a piece that'll make all the difference. A piece that the others dismissed as being inconsequential a long time ago.

Originally posted by sapien82
religion is a man made thing not based on observation , only assumption that something must have created everything in our world that we could not explain at the time, i.e. the heavens , the elements , animals and us .

WRONG.

Have you ever heard of The All?

Or, Panentheism?

Not only are these views of God based on the observation that the Universe gives us life, and created all things, and is all things... but it is also based on solid logical philosophy about the origin of the Universe, and how it came to be, and they named it "God".

For example;

Those seeking a deeper understanding of life will ask the question, "Where did The All come from?" Some Hermeticists, strong adherents of The Kybalion, go no further than to state "THE ALL must be INFINITE, for there is nothing else to define, confine, bound, limit or restrict THE ALL. It must be infinite in Time, or ETERNAL,-- it must have always continuously existed, for there is nothing else to have ever created it ... if it had ever 'not been,' even for a moment, it would not 'be' now.

The bold text is far more logical than saying "nothing created a big bang".

I like what it says here... I just described the following in a previous post which is my own conclusions based on logic. I didn't realize until now, that other people came to the same conclusion word for word.

In summary, according to the Summum philosophy, The All is a union between Nothing and All Possibility, the ultimate opposites, and the nature of that union is without beginning or end for these two opposites automatically and simultaneously create each other. The result is a "cosmic copulation" whose effect is an infinite, living mind.

The above is so much deeper than science will ever get. Science will never be able to reach such deep understanding based on observation alone. They sooner or later will have to use logical philosophy, then they will find out, like I did, that this logic was around loooonnnng ago.

If science believes that "nothing" created a "big bang", they will then have to explain how "nothing" was able to do such a thing. They can't do that from observation.

How could "nothing" which is at a state of rest, equilibrium, and balanced, suddenly become unbalanced? It voids the first law of motion;

First Law: Every body remains in a state of rest or uniform motion (constant velocity) unless it is acted upon by an external unbalanced force.

It is impossible for "nothing" which is at rest, to suddenly become "something" without an external force.



[edit on 3-9-2010 by illumin8ed]

I think that he may have made the comment about God not creating the universe for several reasons. My thoughts are:

1. He was receiving criticism for his previous theories about God being involved because it associated his theories with ideas that science has proven to be true, such as evolution, an earth older than 6,000 years...etc...

2. A nice controversial subject such as that is sure to cause a stir and sell some books.

Another thought along this line is profitability. In my line of work, I promote products that I use and detest, such as anything Microsoft makes. I lie & say "It's the best..." because it keeps me employed, and right in my home. Just because someone says something is the truth doesn't mean they really believe it. It's just more advantageous than the truth. Ulterior motive.

MY opinion of the universe:
I believe everything has consciousness, however vague and dim it may be, right down to the subatomic level where energy becomes matter & vice versa. Eternism explains this, and thus far has made more sense to me than anything else I've ever heard. www.eternism.com

But that's just my opinion, and I've been known to have been wrong a time or two before.

Sounds like he's gone mad scientist. Fits his look anyway. However, as others has stated, this is nothing more than an opinion and a failed attempt to back it up with facts. Physics and laws of the universe dont "just happen"

Plus why is it that God is even dragged into his writings anyway? Religion is solely based on faith. Meaning the followers of that said religion follow it based on a trust of its existence in truth without an explanation or proven facts.

Many people who are atheists will not understand this because they rarely have faith in anything as they always want facts and science to determine their lives. However, faith is a form of hope, and hope can be a very powerful to the human condition.

Either way, Hawking may just be running his synthesizer to get attention through controversy and conspiracy. All writers do it to hype their work, and plus, he's almost contradicted himself in this new book compared to his previous ones where he stated God may have had a hand in the creation. Now he's going in the other direction.

Originally posted by EsSeeEye
There have been scientific studies on morality that have indicated that there is zero statistical difference between the morals of a believer and an atheist, and some studies have actually shown that the moral compass actually swings in the atheists' favor.

Right, which is interesting to know
but even you know that you used the word "indicated"

there's still no proof

proof would be people living on an island or a country somewhere with a significant population and it's a happy society and has been for at a minimum decades at least.

there is no such place

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
Saying the universe was created by gravity, is the same as saying the universe was created by god. Both are unknown in there total scope

It is not the same and here's why
What is gravity?
Gravity is the force or lack thereof that cause us to fall down from a building here on earth and what is absent in space.

People saying that if you don't know what gravity is jump of a building, that's a flawed approach, what they should say an apple will fall on your head here but not in space.

Also if you are on a planet with fluctuating gravity sometimes a rock will be super light and other times it will be incredibly heavy.
Sometimes a pebble will be as heavy as a boulder and if you shoot a gun the bullet might not go so far.

That is gravity.

Now... give me examples of God as I have given you gravity!

See you can't do it, that's why it's completely different.

You CANNOT compare god to gravity, to even attempt to do so is lunacy.

reply to post by illumin8ed


You know I was refering to the christian God ,

I've read the popul vuh , the mayan creation myth and it describes an alltogether very different way of how the universe came to be



You know just as well as I do that God or an all powerful deity or omnipresent being who created the entire universe has intelligence and can control things is a man made creation

We created religion , we created god , in the christian sense.

Ancient civilisations may have also done the same , however they called their gods after things they could see and feel , like the wind rain , sun and , moon and stars.

God is a man made creation , the universe is not and it isnt God either.
The universe we inhabit is far more complex than anything humans can ever come up with , in my opinion humanity will never understand the ultimate origin of the universe.

I like to belief that the universe existed in different dimensions first in some low energy states , in those dimensions there was an unbalanced force created from unknown reasons , which then caused so much negative or positive energy to build and from the chaos and unbalance , the bigbang created the universe we know in the 3rd dimension to bring equilibrium

the yin and yang certainly seems to exist in everything
isnt the 64 trigrams of the I ching the perfect way to symbolise the universe and its multiple dimensions?







[edit on 3-9-2010 by sapien82]

Some interresting stuf over here...

I alway's like the discussion about who or what created everything ?

Some say God created everything, well who created God then ? To my point of view mankind created God.

But anyway what created the universe ? Well, I alway's believe that everything has and end, just as everything has a begin, nothing is eternal. So the universe had a begin; the big bang and it wil also have a end. I think it's some kind of circle, just as a circle of life. When the end is there, it will start all over again.

Originally posted by illumin8ed
reply to post by Pentothal

 

You are trying to disprove God because someone said God spoke the Universe into existence?

That is like trying to disprove gravity because Aristotle once believed that heavier objects accelerate faster than lighter objects.

You can't disprove something because of what someone believes about it.

I was not trying to disprove the existence of God. I do not understand your point. I do notice that people who believe in the existence of God are VERY sensitive about it. Surely if one was friends with the Supreme Being one would be very confident and satisfied.

I was not arguing against the existence of God at all. I was saying that Hawking does at least have EVIDENCE unlike his distracters.

If people say God exists then fine. Good for them.

As for using the analogy of Gravity exists:

That is like trying to disprove gravity because Aristotle once believed that heavier objects accelerate faster than lighter objects.

I am afraid that gravity is something that is evident to everyone. In other words it is obvious it exists. God however? Again, I do not get your point.

Another thing I notice is this: Why do people of faith, when it is written to love everyone etc... Why do these people above all become the most aggressive of people over a discussion? I have NO enemies added to my profile. I get added to others profiles as an enemy a few times when I post merely questioning the rationale of the existence of God (in other words thinking and questioning). So yeah... religion seems like a unifying force full of happy, relaxed and loving people.

In short the ONLY point I was making is that Hawking has some evidence, his opponents have none at all. They only have old texts and threats of eternal suffering to those who refuse to treat them as fact.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by Pentothal]

reply to post by ModernAcademia


Wow

newtons laws of gravity is a law for a reason


Gravity exists everywhere can be felt and recorded

god doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded

Originally posted by sapien82
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

newtons laws of gravity is a law for a reason
Gravity exists everywhere can be felt and recorded
god doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded

I just repeat/copypaste what you wrote
Gravity exists everywhere can be felt and recorded
Love doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded
Trust doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded
Sympathy doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded
Wrath doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded
Soul doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded

ermm lots more cannot be measured, does that means they dont exist ?
Time exists everywhere can be felt and recorded, but do they really exist ?

Proof of god/higher power exist: Existence of everything we know, will know and will never know. If god doesnt exist, nothing exist at all.

The only way to create something out of nothing is with an imagination.
Therefore, something intelligent created the universe and it wasn't Steven
Hawkins! Bad science, he is just grasping for straws, must be close to death.
He's starting to sound like a televangelist, next he will say the universe wants
you to send him money!

Originally posted by sapien82
god doesnt exist everywhere cant be felt or recorded

You are WRONG.

YOUR idea of God (that was spoon fed to you) may not exist... This doesn't mean that everyones idea of God doesn't exist.

MANY religions know of God as being the Universe itself. Some forms of Christianity even support this, and parts of the Bible hint that the Universe itself is God's body.

God = The Universe = Everything there is and everything there ever will be, and beyond.

The Universe = All energy (gravity, magnetism, strong/weak force, etc.) = God

The Universe created all things. The Universe gave us, and continues to give us life, and support life. The Universe is all powerful (contains all energy). The Universe is all knowing (contains all knowledge and all thinking entities).

God couldn't be more measurable... God IS geometry.

Gospel of Thomas;

I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all return. Split a piece of wood, and I am there. Lift a stone, and you will find me there.

[edit on 3-9-2010 by illumin8ed]

reply to post by MR BOB


instead of juggling just three objects
put another twelve in there and get busy.

The mind is finite. It has limits.
Infinity has no limits.

You are right, there are more important
questions for you to research in science.

Originally posted by TheApachekid
The only way to create something out of nothing is with an imagination.
Therefore, something intelligent created the universe and it wasn't Steven
Hawkins! Bad science, he is just grasping for straws, must be close to death.
He's starting to sound like a televangelist, next he will say the universe wants
you to send him money!

You are alleging that to imagine, (defined: creating a picture of an object, situation, event, in your mind) is creating something (the thought in the mind) out of nothing?

This cannot be done. In order to create the thought it requires energy and fuel and air.

Fuel is the food you eat and oxygen is the air you breathe.
You must use some of the oxygen and food to create the electrical impulses and inage in your mind.

When I saw this on Yahoo news, I laughed. I am on both opinions as expressed in the OP.

The conjecture of his personal imagination and theories are just that. When I saw "God" was in the title "God did not create the universe, says Hawking" for the book. I had to go get my 10 foot pole out to post the breaking news here. That didn't work, too hard to type.

When I get old I might write a book about science and faith and call it "God: Really Unreal"



[edit on 3-9-2010 by Tribble]

Wow, 11 pages.

I wonder how long these threads will be when the book actually comes out, and everyone gets a chance to sit down and analyze his actual words and theories?

Got mine on order, anyway. Anyone else?

The PROPER Definition of God is as follows

Samuel Adams Boston Lager poured into a Samuel Adams Boston Lager Scientifically Engineered Glass

FACT PROVEN THROUGH SCIENCE = Samuel Adams Boston Lager is the greatest beer ever brewed in any dimension, universe, time or alternate reality.

FACT: Samuel Adams Beer is the One True God

FACT: Samuel Adams Boston Lager grants prayers and wishes.

FACT: Samuel Adams Boston Lager is God

FACT: Samuel Adams Boston Lager is the Alpha and the Omega

FACT: Samuel Adams Boston Lager is God

11 pages and counting. Hate to spoil the party but has anyone noticed yet that he hasn't actually said "God did not create the universe" or "I have proof that God did not create the universe"? He stated that (and I'm paraphrasing) given our current understanding of physics and cosmology, God is not a requirement for the existence of the universe, i.e. we have (or are on the cusp of having) the knowledge to explain the origins of our universe without resorting to "God did it" (i.e. we haven't got clue). That's not the same as saying "God did not create the universe" or "there is no God" by any stretch.

Anyway, carry on...

[edit on 3-9-2010 by john_bmth]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone actually seen Hawking's actual reasoning? Unless we have the actual proofs he used to arrive by his conclusion, the words of both Hawking and that random Rabbi are absolutely meaningless.