Gaddafi: Europe will 'turn black' unless EU pays Libya €5 billion a year

What you do is buy 5billion in Nike stock, tell Gaddafi to shove it, and then sit back and watch the money come in $$$$ chi-ching $$$$

[edit on 2-9-2010 by NWO-Renegade]

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap
Illegal immigration threads always bring out the racist, white supremacist genocidaires on ATS, don't they?

Yeah. And they also bring out all the "we should tolerate everything to the point of our own extinction" types too. Its simple math.

One group, in one area, birth rate below replacement levels. (Which is great for the population problem, and probably is a natural response to overcrowding, which SHOULD be selected for by evolution except for the "tolerate till you drop" crowd)

Bring second group into the same area who is reproducing at more than replacement levels. (Which if they were left in their own home country would lead to starvation as they outstripped their lands carrying capacity and which SHOULD be selected against by evolution except for the "tolerate till you drop" crowd.

No one is advocating genocide here except for those who are demanding we import people into regions where the indigenous populations birthrate is dropping below replacement levels in an attempt to adjust to the carrying capacity of the land.

For one thing, you totally destroy any benefits made by the indigenous population who is trying to adjust themselves to the carrying capacity of their region. Secondly, you promote a breeding strategy that is detrimental not only to the indigenous peoples of a given region, but ultimately, to all of humanity, the environment, other animals, etc.

Its idiotic to import people into any countries atm. The only reason our leaders are doing it is because they are too stupid to figure out how to structure our economy so that it is not a big pyramid scheme, which is doomed to collapse at some point.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


So I guess the thing that should be selected for by 'evolution' is what others in this thread have called for - massive bombings against the surplus population in non-European countries!

reply to post by SmedleyBurlap


I certainly wouldnt recommend that we bomb countries who are overpopulating. Nature should take care of them, although one strategy groups who are overpopulating take is pushing other groups out of their own area and crowding them out. You know like Europeans have done on the American continent.

We arent naive about what happens when an overcrowded region spills over into a less crowded one. We have been playing this game for thousands of years. And we watch plants do it, and animals do it, etc. We know how this whole game plays out, and for the first time in history, we have a cure. Birth control.

No bombs needed. Populations need to be stabilized more or less where they are. Which means Europeans need to quit plundering resources from elsewhere too. No matter how good the intentions of those who think we should just let everyone go anywhere and do anything, and we should accept everyone and every meme, its a strategy for disaster. Its poorly thought through, its a knee jerk reaction to racism, and it will endanger the entire species.

We need to let bad strategies fall by the wayside. That means both over consuming and over breeding for your region. This game we are playing has a natural ending. You dont need to be a genius to see it coming either. We dont have to play the game of "inhabit the Earth" as blindly, and compulsively as every other animal. We of all species, can see the rules, and we can adapt to them before the axe falls. We are just too stupid to do it.

reply to post by johnny c


Define Blackmail:

exert pressure on someone through threats

This is kind of a daily hobby of the West, do this or we will bomb you

I don't see much different.. At least Gaddafi is being honest about the situation, why won't they let his country be in EU, that would kind of solve the problem

I love Gaddafi, at least he is not like American politicians who just slaps a BS in the cover of everything to justify their own Blackmail of the world.
www.youtube.com...

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


You seem to presume that Europeans and westerners have fewer children because they consciously choose to maintain the population at or below the carrying capacity of the land they inhabit. I think a far more likely reason is the combination of pure and simple greed with apathy towards other human beings. Why have multiple children when you can live much more comfortably with just one? That is what Western parents ask themselves most commonly, and their conclusion is very frequently to choose material comfort over a larger family.

Then there is the problem of the declining virility of white males; European populations have decreasing levels of fertility in part due to pollutants, but mostly due to the total lack of a vigorous lifestyle in modern cities. I wonder, how many European males suffer from 'lazy sperm'?

Believe me, when migrant populations become established in a new home (Europe in this case) they become just as vapid and materialistic as the long-established natives. A middle-class African-Italian family would choose a small family over bankruptcy just the same as anyone else.

Originally posted by Slippery Jim
reply to post by johnny c

 

Sounds like all the excuse Europe needs to put a naval blockade in place.

Then bomb them back to the stone age.

I agree with the first part. Sounds like a fair warning from Gaddafi that Europe is going to have guard its own borders and manage its own immigrant situation. Europe should do just that, deporting freely as necessary. Spend the needed money.

Don't agree with the second part. Just keep doing the first. It will require that assimilation policies are reversed, and I hope Gaddafi's plain statement give the political momentum to make that happen.

There will be lots of complaints, like Arizona is getting from Obama these days, but ... tough. Gotta do it.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap

You seem to presume that Europeans and westerners have fewer children because they consciously choose to maintain the population at or below the carrying capacity of the land they inhabit.

No, I dont think it is a conscious choice they are making to become more inline with the carrying capacity of their region. I dont think humans make many conscious choices at all, if you want the unadorned truth.

Fortunately, our reproductive strategies do not need to be conscious, do they. Just like the urge to rub bits of flesh together is driven primarily by the urge to feel good, and egged on by visual cues that have nothing to do at all with conscious decision making, we can adjust our breeding strategies based on "greed" when we perceive "lack" unconsciously too. Or lose our desire to breed when we are too stressed, etc.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap

That is what Western parents ask themselves most commonly, and their conclusion is very frequently to choose material comfort over a larger family.

You clearly either dont know or dont care that males and females differ in their approach to "number of offspring." Western "parents" often are not in agreement about how many children to have. Males tend to favor more children, females, fewer. Which is one of the main reasons there is such a huge divide between Europe and other regions. Women have access to and the education required to seek out, purchase, and use birth control. In many regions of the world the patriarchal religions still dominate to the degree this is not an option. Its more complicated than "Western Greed." Most things in life really arent so simple that catchy little phrases can cover it.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap

Believe me, when migrant populations become established in a new home (Europe in this case) they become just as vapid and materialistic as the long-established natives. A middle-class African-Italian family would choose a small family over bankruptcy just the same as anyone else.

Its really hardly the point. Not only are genes competing, but memes are as well. Again, its just not the simple one layered issue you keep trying to make it. Its not about racism, or genocide, (your first argument) or about "western greed" (your second argument) or even about pollution (your third argument.) Its all of those things, and our economic stupidity, the various religious memes, its a big complicated mess. Which is why I responded to a one and a half line post that sought to reduce all these complicated and important (to the future of our species) issues down to "racism and genocide."

The whole illegal immigration debate is so much more nuanced than the media and sociologists want to make it. Yes, racism is one inbred response people have to overcrowding and competition, but its a symptom of a problem our leaders dont want you to notice at all. And that underlying problem is that our whole system is one big pyramid scheme. It cannot work. It can look like its working as long as you can keep the base expanding at a pretty good clip. But it is not in fact a workable long term strategy. Like all pyramid schemes, when it hits it natural limit in terms of being able to expand the base, it crashes hard.

In case you have noticed, we are already crashing. All of this moving people around the globe to shore up the system is a pathetic attempt to bandaid the problems our world economy is already facing. The thing to do is not to try try again to make this system work. The thing to do is to face the simply fact that the system cannot work. When it was designed, (thousands of years ago) we were naive enough as a species to believe we could grow forever. There was endless room, endless resources. We know better now, and yet we havent changed our strategy at all.

Its time to stop being stupid, and make some conscious decisions for a change.

Originally posted by Illusionsaregrander
... The whole illegal immigration debate is so much more nuanced than the media and sociologists want to make it. Yes, racism is one inbred response people have to overcrowding and competition, but its a symptom of a problem our leaders dont want you to notice at all. And that underlying problem is that our whole system is one big pyramid scheme. It cannot work. It can look like its working as long as you can keep the base expanding at a pretty good clip. But it is not in fact a workable long term strategy. Like all pyramid schemes, when it hits it natural limit in terms of being able to expand the base, it crashes hard.

In case you have noticed, we are already crashing. All of this moving people around the globe to shore up the system is a pathetic attempt to bandaid the problems our world economy is already facing. The thing to do is not to try try again to make this system work. The thing to do is to face the simply fact that the system cannot work. When it was designed, (thousands of years ago) we were naive enough as a species to believe we could grow forever. There was endless room, endless resources. We know better now, and yet we havent changed our strategy at all.

Its time to stop being stupid, and make some conscious decisions for a change.

We've argued in the overpopulation thread, and we'll probably argue here, but I agree with 90% of what you say above. The system will crash if we don't keep feeding it with more people.

So what to do? Let it crash! For example, it seems our dear leaders in Washington and corporate America need a constant stream of people from our southern border, legal or not. It helps their system. Well I say tough, we're not all here to feed their system. Enforce our rules, let us have the peace and protection we're entitled to, and if their system goes flop, we'll cheer from the sidelines and be around to pick up the pieces later.

reply to post by Illusionsaregrander


I think you're oversimplifying when you say "men generally want more children and women generally want fewer." This isn't universally true. In African-American communities, motherhood is actually valued! Western culture is very anti-maternal, it's full of images and ideals that conflict with the reality of being a mother. The obsession with beauty-as-youthfulness is one obvious example. Then there is the pressure to be a working mom, to have a career on top of a family. This is partly due to the fall in real wages, which necessitates more two-income families, but it is also due to a shift in the culture by which women are becoming increasingly masculine and are seeking out male gender roles as a means of self-fulfillment. There are many factors that contribute to the devaluation of motherhood in the West.

I believe you misread my first post in this thread. I did not mean to accuse everyone in it of being a xenophobe, but to point out how attractive these kinds of threads are to xenophobes. It was a lamentation on the state of ATS, that it could be host to such small thinkers.

So silly, to think that the pyramid will crash! It didn't crash in 1929, it didn't crash in 1871, it didn't even crash when the Roman empire dissolved! How can you be so certain that the world is going to end now, when doomsayers have been wrong for countless millennia of human history? The truth is that there are unlimited resources, scattered throughout the universe. Though the Earth may be finite [or not, check the Expanding Earth hypothesis], the constant increase in technology means that we are becoming ever more efficient when it comes to consuming resources. We can sit on this Earth for an indefinite length of time, possibly a million years before some disaster beyond our power wipes us out. There is no fundamental flaw in civilization. If there were, then it would have died out eons ago.

Things can and will continue as they are now, and things will be fine.

Ghaddafi should be a contestant on the X Factor as a comedian

reply to post by Slippery Jim

Sounds like all the excuse Europe needs to put a naval blockade in place.

Then bomb them back to the stone age.

You call for more war and innocent civilian deaths??
People like you are just sick..
BTW, lately it seems they don't need an excuse..

Originally posted by CynicalM
reply to post by Slippery Jim

 

Sounds like all the excuse Europe needs to put a naval blockade in place.

Then bomb them back to the stone age.

You call for more war and innocent civilian deaths??
People like you are just sick..
BTW, lately it seems they don't need an excuse..

Yes, it appears to me that the politically incorrect crowd (read that as: obsolete dinosaurs stubbornly driving themselves to extinction) is becoming more and more bold and more comfortable with shouting their true beliefs from the rooftops. That Glenn Beck rally was an ill omen for the politically correct, progressive crowd in our society (read: the element of our society that will adapt and survive into the future). The crazies are protesting too little and too late to change anything, but I am sure that they will only get crazier before all is said and done.

From the Telegraph article in the OP:

Tens of thousands of desperate African refugees and economic migrants have reached Italian soil by boat from the North African coast, although the influx has been stemmed by the Libyan navy in the last year under an accord with the Berlusconi government.

So... the Libyan Navy is *already* doing this, and he is suggesting that unless Italy starts kicking in some major investment, the initiative will be unsuccessful.

Yeah, the guy is a nutter. Better bomb the entire country.

Originally posted by SmedleyBurlap

Originally posted by CynicalM
reply to post by Slippery Jim

 

Sounds like all the excuse Europe needs to put a naval blockade in place.

Then bomb them back to the stone age.

You call for more war and innocent civilian deaths??
People like you are just sick..
BTW, lately it seems they don't need an excuse..

Yes, it appears to me that the politically incorrect crowd (read that as: obsolete dinosaurs stubbornly driving themselves to extinction) is becoming more and more bold and more comfortable with shouting their true beliefs from the rooftops. That Glenn Beck rally was an ill omen for the politically correct, progressive crowd in our society (read: the element of our society that will adapt and survive into the future). The crazies are protesting too little and too late to change anything, but I am sure that they will only get crazier before all is said and done.

Indeed, he ruins the good idea of protecting borders by combining it with the idea of bombing them back to the stone age.

Honestly I wonder if he's an intentional shill, trying to besmirch the good idea of strong and unapologetic defense of the border.

i wonder what the morroccans opinion of this is ? hey if libyia thinks it deserves 5Bn - to " secure " its waterways - how much can the morrocans demand ?

reply to post by ignorant_ape
Hey ignorant ape that is a very good point,if they give in to Gaddafi then how many other countries will jump on the band wagon
remember morocco before with the build up of Africians on the boarder??

Here is a little refresher for you;

The 2006 images of dozens of Sub-Saharan Africans thrown on the Algeria-Morocco borders are still vivid in the memory of millions of Africans around the world. Such images should not be repeated as it hurts the prospect of current Moroccan immigrants currently in irregular status to get legal residency in their host country and weakens the work and the status on pro-immigrant organizations working in Europe.

my point being that if morocco open their boarder it would be big trouble for europe

Obviously, Morocco has every right to protect its borders from illegal entry. By the same token Morocco, with more than 3 millions of its citizens living overseas, has an obligation to respect and uphold international law to protect migrants living within its border regardless of their nationalities or countries of origin. The phenomenal of the so-called illegal immigration is a socio-economic problem and not a security matter.

full story

I have to say its a disgrace that there is reports of asylm seekers being dropped in the water by boarder patrol for just looking for a new life i guess this is Gaddafis plan,keep the 5 billion and be ruthless

In the future people with respect for human life and understanding people will have to guard the boarder in Europe,if they get the money MOROCCO and ALGERIA will soon following pace for a cut.

guys they have to be paid something??? but how much??? thanks for your time






[edit on 15/8/2010 by johnny c]

[edit on 15/8/2010 by johnny c]

reply to post by johnny c


The fix I see for illegal immigration is this:

Deport all illegal immigrants back to their home countries, except in extreme cases such as political asylum. Force all immigrants to return to their home countries when their visas/green cards expire, unless they have a wife and/or kids here.

Then strictly limit immigration from all non-Western nations. The formerly white nations are becoming continuously more multicultural which is ruining our nations traditional culture. We should respect their culture but keep it in their country. Look at Europe for example, the population is no longer growing except from ME immigrants and the children they keep having.

Soon Europe will no longer be white, Christian or European, instead Islam will be a larger religion than Christianity there and whites will be the minority. It's happening here in America too, we are just told we can't talk about race and immigration because it's "Politically incorrect".

Keep the western nations White, Secular, Christian and Democratic.

[edit on 9/3/2010 by Misoir]

reply to post by Misoir

I agree with you on the problems,it is a plan i belive to do this and have people intregrated so they lose their culture,call me a conspiracy nut but
the elites without a doubt want a one world order and if they destroy culture and form a multicultured society,that would be a big part of the plan because we would be half way there already.
Going by the way they have people return to there countries when green card or visas run out or expire and being there only way to stay is have a child. I honestly think it has being planned!! these people are very smart and thy know every move of what they are doing in my opinion.

reply to post by johnny c


The so called 'Anchor Babies' are a problem in America with the 14th Amendment. I don't want to seem like a racist because personally I couldn't care less about race, but when it comes to culture I would prefer to keep American culture the way it always has been.

This includes the culture of Southern African American, Southwestern Hispanics, New England Catholics, Upper Plains Nordics and Native Hawaiian culture because that Is American Culture. And so I don't oppose immigrants coming from Asia, Middle East, Latin America or Africa, what I do oppose is them coming in large numbers which will affect our culture.

I mean hasn't the elite done a pretty bad enough job destroying our culture now they want us to change it even more by mixing in foreign cultures!? America is a Christian nation, it is not legally a Christian nation and it never should be, but culturally and traditionally we are. I am not even a Christian but I consider myself Culturally Christian. I celebrate Christmas and Easter but not the commercialized end of it with presents and eggs.

We cannot forget who we are nor shun who we were. Take for example Orange County, California, it use to be one of the most Conservative places in America. It was overwhelmingly white, it was a bastion for the John Birch Society and now it is less than 50% white and a competetive county. If you consider losing your culture in just 20 years and being called racist for defending your culture as Progress then you can keep your progress and go somewhere else.

Pat Buchanan wrote a great piece about this sort of thing.

buchanan.org...