John's Brother - John the Baptist - Freemasons, Templars & Leonardo DaVinci

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by JoshNorton

 

I believe it's the same in ALL lodges, throughout the World, that we dedicate our Lodge to The Holy Saints John (Baptist and Jerusalem).

As for "worshiping" severed heads: ALL Catholics in that time period worshiped severed heads, hands, fingers (in Dublin a finger in a box) statues, staffs, and so on.. various items, all called "Relics".

So if they did "Worship" a severed head, it wouldn't be ... unusual. Catholics still hold on to a number of Relics.

But anyways, Freemasonry started in England/Scotland/Ireland it was imported to France and the rest of Europe, at least, that's what available history tells us.

Thanks for the info about the John's. As for the relic they worshiped, if they did, it would be important to history to know which relic or head they worshiped.

Also i think there is a great influence of France in Freemasonry. There are a lot of words in masonry that is taken directly from french. I also think a lot of Templars fled to Scotland and i think Scottish freemasonry is older than english masonry.

Originally posted by BeastMaster2012

Originally posted by Rockpuck

Also i think there is a great influence of France in Freemasonry. There are a lot of words in masonry that is taken directly from french. I also think a lot of Templars fled to Scotland and i think Scottish freemasonry is older than english masonry.

Yes, but then French was the common spoken language of Briton in the medieval period thanks to the Norman conquest in the earlier part of the middle ages, and the nobility and intellectual elite held onto that for a longer period of time I believe, even to the fourteenth century, so perhaps that is one reason why. The nobility of all Europe, especially England and France, were intermarried, fully incestuous, possessing a common culture and language in many ways making them totally a seperate kingdom within England.
No coincidence also that the formation of the early craftsman's guilds in the fourteenth century, which provided the foundation for speculative Freemasonry much later, included a spiritual and mystic as their core component formed not long after the monasteries were dissolved. A vacuum was created that had to be filled.

David Stevenson, in his book The Origins of Freemasonry, Scotland's Century 1590 - 1710, also asserts Scottish Freemasonry's primacy over other forms.

Freemasonry started in either France or Germany. The history of English Freemasonry is made up and "inaccurate," according to English Freemasons themselves.

Scotland has been a major source of white slavery in England and America, so that's probably where the "Scottish Rite" comes from.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


I too believe Templar went to Scotland and I see a lot of Celtic influence on Masonry, but I see no French.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


French was spoken for a little less than 200 years between 1066-1266, Freemasonry didn't form until probably the mid 1600's to early 1700's (personally I believe early to mid 1600's)

Now Stone Mason guilds were very popular all over Europe, but has little to no direct connection to Freemasonry. Being an actual Mason I can say from my perspective I see no French influence what so ever.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
reply to post by Extant Taxon

 

French was spoken for a little less than 200 years between 1066-1266, Freemasonry didn't form until probably the mid 1600's to early 1700's (personally I believe early to mid 1600's)

Now Stone Mason guilds were very popular all over Europe, but has little to no direct connection to Freemasonry. Being an actual Mason I can say from my perspective I see no French influence what so ever.

There are academic sources who clearly link the operative Stone Mason Guilds to the genesis of modern Freemasonry, one I've already mentioned.

There is evidence that the nobility spoke the French language for a lot longer I believe. A book I'm reading now, Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror: the Calamitous 14th century, makes mention of this point. There would have probably been some kind of French influence on modern Freemasonry from the aforementioned Stone Mason Guilds, as I believe David Stevenson argues in his book. If you are going to strictly view operative Stone Mason Guilds and Speculative Freemasonry as mutually exclusive entities there was still a mingling of cultures that took place for a long time across that very short expanse of sea. The French were very involved cross-channel with the Scots.
My point was based on BeastMaster2012's mention of some terms in Freemasonry coming from the French language (I seem to remember something of this from Stevenson's book I think) and I speculated that maybe this was the influence of the nobility who still used the language and patronised operative masons.

Anyway, on the point of this discussion and probably more reinforcing your contention, here is an interesting little academic piece I found earlier on the use of the French language in England with the population who were literate being strongly bilingual, English and French. It was the official language of the law until the 1730s, but seemingly not in actual practice, day to day.

French as a Mother-Tongue in Medieval England - Jacquie Heys




[edit on 5/9/10 by Extant Taxon]

I would like to get back on topic to the phrase "John's Brothers". Has anyone heard of this? Like i said before when you search it it pretty much comes up with NOTHING except those old freemason encylopedias.

This appears to be true in some way but it also seems to be ignored. I don't understand this. The only thing i can think of is that the English Lodges want to have the oldest lodges and don't even really "respect" anything outside of English Freemasonry. I don't know enough about this subject, regarding the different nations of freemasonry, but there is much evidence to point to an older formation than 1717 in England.

Also to say that France doesn't have much history regarding freemasonry i urge you to just keep your mind open to the origins being heavily influenced by France. Like i said before almost all of the important members of the early Templars were from southern France as was the two first kings of jerusalem. There is obviously a Templar and Freemasonry connection, it almost seems silly to say there isn't. There are numerous mentions of Knights Templars in the different degrees and the DeMolay group for young men takes it's name directly from the last ruling Templar member that was burnt at the stake.

The family that built Rosslyn Chapel was the Sinclair family, whom came from northern France with William the Conqueror if i am not mistaken. This i admit is stretching it far but i think there is something to it.

And if all of this is true, that France does play an important role, what could that be? To me it seems that many jews fled to southern France and i think that Mary Magdalene came to that region with possibily Jesus' baby. Now i am beginning to think that maybe Jesus was not real but a number of different people, or he wasn't really that important. There is something up with the Templars belief system as there are reports of them spitting on the cross of Jesus.

If that is true, that the Templars didn't really believe in Jesus, maybe they knew something important regarding the true history of christianity. If anyone would know (besides people inside the church) the Templars would have known something since they spent so many years "digging" at the Temple of Soloman and their high status with the church.

Anyways i think there is a lot to look into regarding the French history of Templars and Masons, especially with that John's Brothers thing.

reply to post by Extant Taxon


There's a lot of sources that link Freemasonry's beginnings to a lot of things.. fact of the matter is, at that the time of the real Freemasonry's emergence, Stone Mason guilds were not as popular as they once were - or I should say prevalent. The origin of Masonry lays in the fact that Guilds were half social half business, and in order for men to meet anywhere at any time you had to have "Freedoms" or a pass, granted by the Government of the city in order to conduct business. It was in order to control all business movement from taxation to who can and cannot work. In Ireland, England and Scotland the biggest problem was Catholic uprisings or the Scottish Covenants .. thus often non member of the Anglican Church (Church of England) could not partake in guilds. In Scotland and in Ireland especially catholic or Presbyterian families would often raise one son as their heritage religion and the other Anglican, so when they were older families could assist one another in business affairs.

So a guild was needed? Stone Masonry was used because of the allegories you could weave around the craft it's self.. I imagine they had a host of ideas as to what craft to mimick, could have been a Glovers Guild, Grocers Guild, Brewing Guild, Black Smith Guild, Candlers Guild, etc etc etc.. but Masonry was more in line with the Enlightenment ideas. The guilds were formed in the major cities and were populated by a mix of Anglicans, Jews, Catholics and Presbyterians .. and because they were a guild, had a charter, they could meet .. they became "secret" in the end because of persecution, it was a loophole for the likes of Catholics and Covenant families to get into the economy, hence why bother the Anglican and Catholic church deem them satanist.

French replaced Latin in the 1200's as the official language of Trade.. if you went to any major city to trade, be it Spanish, Italian, German or what ever.. you spoke French. French it's self is embedded into English, but it was only roughly 200 years that it was the language "of the court", ie, nobility.

The language used in our rituals and so forth is very little changed over the years, and it is decisively old English, not a French word spoken. A little Latin, but no French.

reply to post by BeastMaster2012


Perhaps this is nod simply to masons having long been brethren of St. John, brothers of John, then. I don't know anything specific about the term, so thus the speculation.

reply to post by Rockpuck


You're confirming many things I have come across before as regards the history of Freemasonry, and masonry. I can see your point of view, but mine differs slightly from the information I have absorbed from academic sources, both Freemason and non-Freemason.
That the choosing of the materials, tools, and general accoutrements of the operative art for the purposes of a suitable allegory that fitted in with Enlightenment ideals I can see, yes, but I think there is more to it than that, and it is no coincidence that other scholars have noted the spiritual and moral component to the early manifestations of the operative art of masonry, that particularly came to prominence after the dissolution of the monasteries; and that these mirror the modern metaphysical core of Freemasonry. The operative craft filled the vacuum as I mentioned in a previous post. I believe a clear tradition of a spiritual and moral type, as well as a possible esoteric one, was passed on from the operative craft to the modern day.
David Stevenson, Paul Naudon, and Mercia Eliade have discussed this in their works I believe.
The operative art definitely appears to have passed on far more than an abstract bare structure for modern speculative Freemasons to hang their metaphorical moral guideposts on.

It's getting late here now but I will try to provide some quotes from the aforementioned authors to back up what I am saying at a later date, and then see what you think of this. Also shall look for references to possible French influence that I seem to remember reading.
It would be interesting also to see if you have any opinion on the following thread of mine as regards this discussion:

The Sons of the Tradition

[edit on 5/9/10 by Extant Taxon]

Beastmaster, I believe you are correct. The one baby is praying to the other in the painting "Virgin of the Rocks." I was thinking in 'TWOs', lol.

How many John's were there in the bible? Seems everything happened in threes.

I think you'll find this very interesting.
www.andrewgough.co.uk...

Also, the mural by Cocteau with Christ in a watery scene is extremely interesting, but that's another thread concerning creation.

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Onboard2]

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Onboard2]

Originally posted by Onboard2
Beastmaster, I believe you are correct. The one baby is praying to the other in the painting "Virgin of the Rocks." I was thinking in 'TWOs', lol.

How many John's were there in the bible? Seems everything happened in threes.

I think you'll find this very interesting.
www.andrewgough.co.uk...

Also, the mural by Cocteau with Christ in a watery scene is extremely interesting, but that's another thread concerning creation.

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Onboard2]

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Onboard2]

That is very interesting about Cocteau. The most interesting thing i found on that page was how someone put his hands into that position. I am quite obsessed with the Rennes le Chateau mystery and i immediately noticed the connection between his fingers and Mary Magdalene. There is a famous Rennes le Chateau researcher named Ben Hammott who was featured in a recent documentary called Bloodline. It gets into the Rennes mystery and the whole second half is dedicated to Ben Hammott's discoveries. It is a very strange movie though. If true, it could be one of the most amazing documentaries and discoveries ever made but you have to keep an open mind when watching it because it could be just a great hoax.

In the movie they talk to a representative from the Priory of Sion, much like how Henry Lincoln talked to Pierre Plantard. They give the frontman of the documentary hints and leads them in certain directions and confirms many of Ben Hammott's findings. What did they find? Well Ben found many bottles with notes in it from abbe Sauniere that leads him to find more bottles and treasures. The most remarkable treasure found is the tomb of a women with a Templars Cloak over the mummified body. It is quite remarkable and seems a little to perfect but if it's true it could be the body of Mary Magdalene. I higly recommend watching the movie, it does feel a bit out there at times though.

In fact, in the book that inspired me to make this thread (The Templar Revelation) the opening of the book talked of the DaVinci paintings i mentioned and Cocteau's mural at Notre Dame de France. The author states that Cocteau's earlier said work is very Davinci like in the sense that he included himself in the scene and had himself looking away.

Very interesting, Thanks!

reply to post by Onboard2


I'm sorry, i forgot to mention the most interesting thing about the body they found. When they cut away the Templar Cloak to try to look at the Skeleton, Ben Hammott was able to see the face of the mummy and also the hands. The hands were in the exact position of Mary Magdalane on the station and exactly how Cocteau's hands were!!!!

That is why the people that discovered the mummified body thought it was Mary Magdalane, along with some writing in the notes.

I didn't know about Cocteau's hands. This adds great mystery to all of this. I don't even know where to begin. I wonder who would put his fingers in that position? This was the early 60's so i wonder if there is anyway that Pierre Plantard was involved?!? Crazy stuff!

Originally posted by Thepreye
reply to post by Onboard2

 

Have there been any accurate restorations of what the feet were doing in the last supper, I think many clues have been obscured by time and artifice, also where is the cave with monoliths above?

Thanks for your time and insights.

SnF OP.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by Thepreye]

[edit on 2-9-2010 by Thepreye]

I'm sorry, I need to go back and read all the responses. I'm not sure where the cave is. I did know, but it's been a number of years, since I read the information. This cave could be in France and it does have monoliths above it.

I haven't noticed anything with the feet in The Last Supper.

It could be here. There are quite a few monoliths in the painting. Also, these are near Rennes-le-chateau.

www.satellitediscoveries.com...

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Onboard2]

I thought that the background was completely fictional but i wouldn't be surprised if it was a real cave. Since i kind of believe that Mary Magdalene lived in southern france it wouldn't surprise me if he hid the grotto or cave that she was originally buried in or something. As for the rocks being megaliths or ancient walls i just don't see it. You would think that the french people and archaeologist would just at a chance to discover something like that in that area.

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
You make some good points

The medieval occultists did secretly worship the Virgin Mary and John the Baptist as symbols of older gods.

BTW, Galileo was persecuted by the Church because he named his discoveries after the pagan Roman gods.

you are wrong in this point: the medieval occulists where opposed to the church by there knowledge on the fact that Marie Magdalene was the wife, the loved women on the side of Jesus. In the last super, Da Vinci depicted John as a women with long hair, breasts and a female face. Michelangelo made the same when he made the statue of the Pietra. The Mary Mother carrying the death Christ taken from the church is a young women with a face of a girl of 24 years in age.

Out of this cult is born the ideology of the priory of Sion which is nothing else then the priory of the Grand St Bernard close to the village of Sion on swiss,french and italian boundaries, the cradle of the Templars.
Other orders like the Juanites emerged out of it as well.

Mary Magdalene is hidden "sub rosa" in all the large Templar Cathedrals of France, Germany and England and is represented by the red rose. Eben in the kabbalistic orthodox rosi-cross the red rose is in the center.

Mary Magdalene was indeed John himself. John was an avatar for her since old Jewish cults based on Kabbalah do not accept women as full parts of there "society". Jesus the Prophet was a kabbalistic teacher and Mary has continued his work afterwards in the south of France and on the island of Patmos in Greece where she wrote the revelation.

The Christian church refuses until today to admit those facts and even until today the jewish tradition is applied, oppressing the woman as a secondary being to be ruled by the male. Islam continues this tradition in an extreme way while in Israel this oppression is more moderate but still applied.

Originally posted by eurocrates
Out of this cult is born the ideology of the priory of Sion which is nothing else then the priory of the Grand St Bernard close to the village of Sion on swiss,french and italian boundaries, the cradle of the Templars.
Other orders like the Juanites emerged out of it as well.

Can you provide any information on the Templars being anywhere remotely NEAR Sion? From this list of known Templar sites, while there are many in Italy and France, there are none listed in Switzerland, and the ones in Italy and France are many days ride from the Swiss boders. So I'm wondering where the idea of Sion being the "cradle of the Templars" comes from.

(And that's without even going into the whole Sion/Plantard hoax...)

Originally posted by eurocrates

Out of this cult is born the ideology of the priory of Sion which is nothing else then the priory of the Grand St Bernard close to the village of Sion on swiss,french and italian boundaries,

--

Who and When created the AUGUSTINIANS? ... and How and Why they ALL relate - by a common chromosome deletion (also called gene deletion, deficiency, or deletion mutation) - to Norwegian inbred degenerate giant Rollo the Ganger Duke of Normandy Abt. 854. Abt. 927?

- Augustinians (and their laity) seem to follow Apostolic Succession - Mendelian inheritance law (or Mendelian genetics or Mendelism) - the deletion mutation is passed on from one generation to another (Augustinian Sinclair McGill University Canada)

- for example, Norwegian (Augustinian) Lutheran clergy can only marry their third cousins - Lenin was a direct descendant of a Lutheran minister from the diocese of Nidaros (Augustinian), who in turn was a direct descendant of Augustinian monk Martin Luder - House of Ascania - Odo - Rollo the Ganger

- Luther's and Geothe's publisher Cotta - (Joannaeorum fratrum) - Aurea Repubblica Ambrosiana; 1447–1450 - Sinclair - Rollo the Ganger

- Augustinian Wycliffe was Master of Balliol College, Oxford in 1360, and 1361 - Durham Priory - Sinclair - Rollo the Ganger

"The books and tracts of Wycliffe's last six years include continual attacks upon the papacy and the entire hierarchy of his times. Each year they focus more and more, and at the last, the pope and the Antichrist seem to him practically equivalent concepts. (A similar conclusion would be reached by Protestants 100 years later)He was a close follower of Augustine, so much so that he was called "John of Augustine" by his pupils."

- John Wycliffe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia He was a close follower of Augustine, so much so that he was called "John of Augustine" by his pupils.


- Sion, Switzerland

Great St. Bernard Pass, ... an Augustine monk named St. Bernard de Menthon founded a hospice and monastery around the year 1050.

--

Originally posted by Sigurd

Who and When created the AUGUSTINIANS?

--

Casa Savoia v. The Papacy seems to be the argument today ...


Humbert aux Blanches-Mains was a descendat of Rollo the Ganger

--

St. Bernard of Menthon
Born in 923, probably in the castle Menthon near Annecy, in Savoy; died at Novara, 1008. He was descended from a rich, noble family and received a thorough education.

-
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: The House of Savoy (Italian: Casa Savoia) Founding 1003 - Dissolution 1946 - The House of Savoy emerged, along with the free communes of Switzerland, in what is now called Switzerland. The name derives from the historical region Savoy in what is now France and Italy.
The house descended from Humbert I ...

Originally posted by eurocrates

Originally posted by vcwxvwligen
The medieval occultists did secretly worship the Virgin Mary and John the Baptist as symbols of older gods.

you are wrong in this point: the medieval occulists where opposed to the church by there knowledge on the fact that Marie Magdalene was the wife, the loved women on the side of Jesus. In the last super, Da Vinci depicted John as a women with long hair, breasts and a female face. Michelangelo made the same when he made the statue of the Pietra. The Mary Mother carrying the death Christ taken from the church is a young women with a face of a girl of 24 years in age.

Mary Magdalene was indeed John himself. John was an avatar for her since old Jewish cults based on Kabbalah do not accept women as full parts of there "society". Jesus the Prophet was a kabbalistic teacher and Mary has continued his work afterwards in the south of France and on the island of Patmos in Greece where she wrote the revelation.

The Christian church refuses until today to admit those facts and even until today the jewish tradition is applied, oppressing the woman as a secondary being to be ruled by the male. Islam continues this tradition in an extreme way while in Israel this oppression is more moderate but still applied.

Three different St. Johns wrote the books of the Bible. St. John of Patmos was not the same person as St. John the Baptist.

I'm not sure how Jesus Christ was a "kabbalistic" teacher since the Kabala, for the most part, is secular humanist. It's also been said that he taught Buddhist meditation.