Why are we forced to pay for electricity and water?

reply to post by Nathan-D

. Also, think of it this way: if we were given electric and water for free and the bare-essential things we needed for survival without paying, no-one would bother working and the economy would collapse.

Really? So, under your theory if people are given free of charge the bare essentials they need to survive, they would no longer have any desire to aspire to anything more than that minimum existence? They would have no need or interest in getting an education so they could pursue a possible career interest? There would be no wish to upgrade their mode of transportation, or size of their home or wardrobe to anything considered over and above what had been deemed the minimum required to exist? They would have no need to have income so they could travel, buy things for their kids, or take their families to an amusement park?

That's an interesting take on the psychology of the human mind. Give us just what we need to survive for free, and our species will be content to be lazy and unproductive for the rest of our existence.

reply to post by NightGypsy


I do apologize, as I am in a hotel room right now, and my connection is really slow, kicking me off sometimes after I have typed a reply. At least I haven't run into double post issues.

I understand your frustrations at questioning why people have to pay for necessities, but unfortunately, unless like some have stated, you live near a river and can drag buckets to your home, that is just the way it is.

I have worked for utility companies in the past, specifically electric, and I will tell you this, they had people on a list who were oxygen users. If they could not pay their bill, they could not be cut off, and in the event of a power outage, they were supplied with generators. Also, in some parts of the country, when the temp hits a certain degree, power cannot be shut off. People are still stuck with the bill, but some cannot be denied electricity for certain reasons.

How about gas, for heat? I know when I lived in the Chicago area, the gas could not be turned off when the temp hit a certain low, and it was used for heat. Once again, people still end up having to pay it.

Once again, I am sorry if I made you answer my question more than once, but, I am having some internet issues right now!

Originally posted by NightGypsy
reply to post by RKWWWW

 

Power companies are not particularly profitable. They are ranked 37th in the list of most profitable industries.

That may be true, but in my area, Pacific Gas and Electric owns a monopoly on the energy business and has no other competitors to contend with. In 2009, their revenues totalled $13.4 billion and they posted a net income of $1.23 billion.

So you accept the fact that power companies are not particular profitable, and you understand that, because PG&E has no competitors, the rates are not arbitrarily set and must be approved by utility commissons ? Any other concerns?

reply to post by NightGypsy

Of course many would, but how many would just lackadaisically sit on their arses? There are loads of people in the UK illegally receiving incapacity benefits that have nothing wrong with them, thousands get discovered every year cheating the benefit system, and the money these people receive from the government are only enough to give them a roof over their heads and for the bare-essentials. If it was made legal that number would rise exponentially. Why don't these people desire to aspire? The answer is simple: most of these people have poor qualifications and don't want to be stuck in dead-end, mind-numbingly boring jobs. Also, you don't necessarily need more than the bare-essentials to lead a fulfilling life. You can do loads of life-enriching things that cost nothing.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by Nathan-D]

Even living in a rural area, I feel your frustration.

We have a well, so we don't pay for water. However, we do pay for the electric to pump it.

Our utility bills for last winter were atrocious, and that was with extreme care on my part with the thermostat. I kept it at 62 and told everyone to bundle up, and that is with me being the one who is always freezing to death. We have hot water baseboard, and gas everything. First year in a new house. We are reinsulating this fall before snow flies and are trying to save up penny by penny for a windmill. Even with the rebates and incentives it will take a long time.

Just got informed our rates are going up for the winter. Hooray. Cringing my way into the fall. Am paying extra for the fall bills to try and stave off a crisis here.

I agree with you about the unrealistic attitude of "if you don't like it, go off the grid". Well, with kids, it is almost impossible, with DFS, the county, and the schools. Schools require that one has a computer in the home, for instance. That may sound unreal, but so be it. If a child hands in something handwritten at the high school level, they receive a zero. So no computer at home, then they stay after school for hours (if a teacher consents to stay with them to monitor, good luck) or to the library for the "half hour" max they are allowed online there.

It may not be the employees fault at the local utility, however, we are a product of the society that has morphed into this slave of modernism. We work to feed it.

reply to post by NightGypsy

you don't HAVE to have these things hooked up. no one is stopping you from filling up buckets in a river but you. no one is stopping you from heating your home by burning wood and lighting it with candles... but that would be pretty inconvenient, wouldn't it? so i say don't cry about it and pay your bills...

You don't appreciate the fact I referred to the the above statement as being insulting? Then you really wouldn't have appreciated my first choice of adjectives before I chose that one.

You're right, why don't I just take my bucket right out to my non-existent river and fill it up just before I go to the store to stock up on my new light source, which is candles. Yes, these are great alternatives as opposed to "crying about having to pay my bills."

Remind me again where I was crying about having to pay any of MY bills?

reply to post by Nathan-D

Also, you don't necessarily need more than the bare-essentials to lead a fulfilling life. You can do loads of life-enriching things that cost notning.

Nathan-D, while I agree that the above is true, that does not mean that society as a whole, if provided bare necessities required to survive, would devolve down to the mentality of those who make a career out of leaching off the government, causing a complete economic meltdown. Besides, isn't it kind of a moot point to ponder a potential economic crisis that may occur given the fact we're already in one?

Your energy and water bills are high because you live in California. The California legislature let Enron rob them.

Blame Gray Davis and the other politicians in California who thought it was a good idea to deregulate around 1998.

Read More from Wiki

That's why you, in particular, have outrageous utility bills - your politicians.

Originally posted by thegoodearth
Even living in a rural area, I feel your frustration.

We have a well, so we don't pay for water. However, we do pay for the electric to pump it.

Our utility bills for last winter were atrocious, and that was with extreme care on my part with the thermostat. I kept it at 62 and told everyone to bundle up, and that is with me being the one who is always freezing to death. We have hot water baseboard, and gas everything. First year in a new house. We are reinsulating this fall before snow flies and are trying to save up penny by penny for a windmill. Even with the rebates and incentives it will take a long time.

Just got informed our rates are going up for the winter. Hooray. Cringing my way into the fall. Am paying extra for the fall bills to try and stave off a crisis here.

I agree with you about the unrealistic attitude of "if you don't like it, go off the grid". Well, with kids, it is almost impossible, with DFS, the county, and the schools. Schools require that one has a computer in the home, for instance. That may sound unreal, but so be it. If a child hands in something handwritten at the high school level, they receive a zero. So no computer at home, then they stay after school for hours (if a teacher consents to stay with them to monitor, good luck) or to the library for the "half hour" max they are allowed online there.

It may not be the employees fault at the local utility, however, we are a product of the society that has morphed into this slave of modernism. We work to feed it.

Going off grid with a photovoltaic system doesn't mean you can't run a computer. The primary source of electricity in an off grid home is still 120 volts.

reply to post by thegoodearth

If a child hands in something handwritten at the high school level, they receive a zero. So no computer at home, then they stay after school for hours (if a teacher consents to stay with them to monitor, good luck) or to the library for the "half hour" max they are allowed online there.

Actually, that's a valid point. Unfortunately, our technological advancements sometimes have a way of morphing from luxuries into necessities in modern society. I sometimes am resentful of this fact because more and more, I see technology that really serves no useful purpose to us (mp3 players, iPods, etc.). The next thing you know, our governments will be trying to come up with ways to morph US into machines at the rate this is going.

Originally posted by indianajoe77
Your energy and water bills are high because you live in California. The California legislature let Enron rob them.

Blame Gray Davis and the other politicians in California who thought it was a good idea to deregulate around 1998.

Read More from Wiki

That's why you, in particular, have outrageous utility bills - your politicians.

You are describing a snapshot from over ten years ago. That situation was a result of poorly crafted regulations. It's not an on going issue. It's true that Californians still, today, on average, pay more for their electricity than other places, but it has nothing to do with deregulation.

reply to post by RKWWWW


It is an ongoing issue because that lost money is still being recovered by the state in the form of the taxes and price you pay for your utilities today.

Maybe I missed something. I see folks complaining about bills and how they have to live a certain way, have certain things...ie computers, running water for the kids, etc.

Folks, I live in an old farm house from the 1860s...and it ain't Tara from gone With The Wind...it is an old farm house from the 1860s. Little to no insulation, 5 foot tall windows, 12x12 rooms with 8 ft celilings. typical hall and parlor farm house, front door...room on each side, straight through to the kitchen and the added family room...a chimney and a wood stove, the upstairs mirrors the downstairs in layout.

We heat with wood in the family room/kitchen...that means little heat in the bedrooms...in fact, it is down right cold. That is why we use all of my grandmother's quilts... hand stitched in the depression...still work very well.

We have one bathroom and shower. we don't use the shower and run the washing machine at the same time as it overburdens the well pump.

We cut off the lights when we exit rooms, use only the lights we need, cook one to two pot suppers in winter...usually stews/soups/casseroles.

We wear heavy flanel shirts, sweat shirts, layered clothing...even caps inside.

We do very well...our electric bill rarely exceeds $110.00....because we raise so much of our food, we can live on about $50-70.00 a week easly for groceries... just staples and cleaning supplies.

We heat with wood and cut on the heat when it is exceptionally cold....below 30 degrees. Otherwise, it is just the woodstove.

We live way out in the country, my wife drives an hour to Durham, NC to work...I drive about 20 miles to Henderson, NC. We are both professionals, but really enjoy the independence we have here.

Now it is not always easy...it is not much fun getting in wood at 5am, then feeding the animals in the dark, my mustache crusts up with ice...walking into limbs, going out to make sure the hot lamp is on in the well house so the pump/lines don't freeze... breaking ice in the water buckets so the horses, goats, chickens, and pigs can drink... checking on the goats and pigs when they are birthing with snow on the ground...you do lose some of the babies.

But I wouldn't live any other way. We always put up for winter, always buy extra and put in the root cellar, always have water in jugs...just in case...aslways have matches and lighter fluyid...and always have the chain saw working.

For those of you interested in such a lifestyle..to get an honest and rewarding view of it...i suggest

Countryside & Small Stock Journal Magazine

Home Again magazine

Both are the way Mother earth used to be before they went so commercial.

Also recommend my ol' standbys...FoxFire Books

If you are SERIOUS about CHANGING LIFESTYLES...then do it, make plans now so you can make the move next spring. Others have done it, I did it....I am NOT a genius....YOU CAN TOO.

Hey, folks came here in the 1700s and 1800s with out the resources you have at hand and did it.... didn't know a darn thing about country farm life...and did it...YOU CAN TOO.

No We paid for those services and the water.
Whos taxes built the public utilities?
Water is an inalienable right.....as is anything else the public has bought and paid for.
Money is not an issure here....the current bailout of the banks cost more than seven years of war in iraq!
The two together, coupled with the entire black budget of the USA would pay for what the OP cites and medicare too!
Its very plain that goverment has gone far out of the peoples control, and that the priorities of the people and the goverment differ greatly!
This is egregious!
Goverment has united with business and the military/intelligence agencies
to become the master, not the servant of the people.
The propaganising and mindcontrol go on 24/7 to keep us from realising this enmasse.....
Should we all come to our senses together, i truely believe that so many good men and women would act to change the situation for their own posterity if not themselves......
There is no reason why we should have to keep paying for the services we actually provide for ourselves through govt.
Momopolies such as power companies and and other types should be goverment owned and run.They should be primarily charging what it costs to continue to provide the service to everyone..period.

I agree with the thinking of most of these replies, in that you can go off the grid. I live on a boat. I happen to pay to keep it in a marina mainly so I can be plugged in to the water and electricity, but I certainly don't HAVE to. I have a big diesel generator that can give me 10kW 24/7 if I wanted it, as long as I was willing to pay for the fuel. This would be enough to power everything at once, the main draws being an 800 GPD watermaker, and air conditioning, not heat, because I am in the tropics, but it's kind of the same. Easier to just live without air conditioning than heat, although plenty of old people keel over and die during heat waves, probably a lot more than freeze to death in cold snaps.

But, being a boat, I have big batteries, enough to run most everything except the air and the big watermaker. I can even run those off the batteries for short periods. I've got a wind generator and a few solar panels, enough to keep the batteries charged up as long as I am careful about the usage. I can catch rainwater. I have lots of kerosene lamps for light. I can play my guitar for music. I could anchor out and be totally off the grid, and still have electric lights, tunes, radar, depthfinder, etc. I could even run 110V stuff like computers off the inverter. Though there is some loss of efficiency it actually provides the cleanest, steadiest juice for delicate things like computers.

This is a big boat, but it is still far smaller than all but the smallest house. You could put fifty times as many solar panels as I can fit, on your roof. My wind generator is pretty small, 36 in diameter, windmills on land are much bigger. Batteries are heavy, I can't just carry unlimited weight, but you certainly can on land. I can catch a lot of rain here in the tropics, otherwise I have to rely on my R/O watermaker. You can have a well, or live by a river.

All this stuff costs money, but in the long run it works out much cheaper. IF you live in a house, not a condo, you can definitely do it. IF you choose to spend the money on batteries etc. rather than giant plasma TVs and video games etc.

If you choose to live in an urban high rise type environment, you cannot. Your condo or apt becomes unlivable without electricity or running water, and you can't put solar panels on your roof, or catch rainwater or drill a well. You still won't DIE, it will just be highly uncomfortable, and dark, and your toilets will stink.

This is your CHOICE. I don't have any kids, so CPS taking your kids for not having electricity sounds pretty Gestapo like to me. Schools requiring computers? I've got two words for you there: Home Schooling. I personally CHOOSE to live on a boat, I think it is the best way to live, but that's just me. That's why they make vanilla and chocolate. You might hate living on a boat. You would have to get rid of a LOT of your "stuff", all those gadgets everyone seems to think are so critical, all the tons and tons of clothes and toys that you "need".

If I ever should choose to "swallow the anchor" and become a landlubber, I would want to live on a farm or up in the mountains somewhere, or down here on a tropical beach. But this would be my choice.

I happen to like big cities, but I have lived in them for years, and now I am kind of over it. They're nice to visit. But again, this is my choice. I like to be free. I can sail almost anywhere in the WORLD if I feel like it, FOR FREE. I have plenty of fishing gear, and need no fuel. If I don't like my neighbors, or the local scene, I can just leave. I could sail up to NYC if I felt like it, and have a sweet waterfront location if I want to pay for it. I could sail up the Seine river and live in Paris if I wanted to, as long as I play along with their little games of passports and visas, but that's another whole swindle. I digress.

You choose to live like you do, so you have to pay for the water and electric. Taxes should cover this stuff easily, but you choose to approve of it being all spent on paying the interest on "money" borrowed to create war and death while you get screwed over on the basics. Soon they are going to convince you that "privatization' of your water supply and electric utilities is going to somehow help you out, and you will go right along with it, as they sell off everything paid for with tax dollars for pennies on the dollar to their buddies. That is also another whole thread, I'm sure there are plenty.

When and if TSHTF, I can just sail off into the sunset, while everyone starts killing each other over food and water. You can choose to think, "Oh, that will never happen", and again, that's your CHOICE.

Choose wisely.

reply to post by AlreadyGone

If you are SERIOUS about CHANGING LIFESTYLES...then do it, make plans now so you can make the move next spring. Others have done it, I did it....I am NOT a genius....YOU CAN TOO. Hey, folks came here in the 1700s and 1800s with out the resources you have at hand and did it.... didn't know a darn thing about country farm life...and did it...YOU CAN TOO.

That's good advice.

It's always been my belief that too much technology causes us to rely too heavily on what is man made. Sometimes we forget there could come a time when we are cut off from those things. We'd better remember how we functioned before these things existed or we're gonna be lost without a clue if TSHTF...

reply to post by Blanca Rose

Once again, I am sorry if I made you answer my question more than once, but, I am having some internet issues right now!

No problem, Blanca. If I came off testy it's because I think some misinterpreted my intent after reading my introductory post and it was going in a direction that didn't reflect my true viewpoints. I have since revised the into it to clear things up a little. My apologies.

Yes I would also highly recommend the Foxfire books, I've got them and I consider them TREASURES. They can tell you EVERYTHING you need to know to completely live off the land, like everyone did in the old days.

There is also a set of books by David Gingery that tell you how to make a foundry and an entire machine shop, starting with just a charcoal brazier. I want to get these books too, and I will regard them as treasures as well.

We pay for the infrastructure. Its not that Big Brother doesn't want us to have water as some sort of conspiracy...You can collect your own rainwater and live with candles for light...If you would like safe clean water, and working electricity it requires a lot of maintenance and infrastructure. I am happy to pay for water and electricity, because I want to be healthy and safe and warm.

Originally posted by Nathan-D ... Also, think of it this way: if we were given electric and water for free and the bare-essential things we needed for survival without paying, no-one would bother working and the economy would collapse.

I think I agree with that, but my perspective is probably not what you would expect. I think it would not be a bad thing if the economy collapsed (or a part of it) for that reason.

God provided the essentials of life. Land to live on, water, plants and animals for food. We didn't so anything to earn them. We cannot create them, only transform them. We can create additional "land" in the form of multistory buildings, reclaiming swamp, etc. Our government is making some of the transformations illegal, but that's another discussion.

The government and corporations did not provide those things. They are really not entitled to charge you to live. God gave you the essentials of life, it's properly yours, not theirs if you're willing to work with it in its original form.

But the government makes that more and more difficult. Where can you get off the grid? Probably nowhere in the USA, esp. if you're raising children -- and God gives you the children too. The government is interposing itself between humans and God.

The other point of view is that the natural lifestyle is too expensive. To live as an old style American Indian, or a Bedouin, requires vast amounts of land. We don't have such vast amounts, relative to the 300 million people in the USA. We cannot give some that much land at the expense of everyone else. We have to learn to live more compactly.

I'm sure there is no simple resolution; the solution must be a compromise. Governments tend to be too aggressive, and misuse their legitimate powers for illegitimate ends. Maybe we could live by the rules of Leviticus, but that doesn't give a magical solution for very dense population either as far as I can remember.

So for now I encourage people to look for the loopholes if you need or want them. Some are provided by government like low income assistance programs. Some are provided by gaps in government coverage, like the lack of fluoride in well water, if you're willing to have a well.