The illusion of free will is the greatest illusion

Free will, free choice... I see a lot of good questions in the above posts.

Everyone walks their spiritual path from point A to B and to get there, everyone makes the same stops, some will make a detour, turn back and forward a dozen times, but they all ask the same questions, eventually coming up with the same answers (which change over time)... and move on.

Do we have free will? Imo: yes.

At first we live our life (on autopilot, as someone mentioned already) and we don't ask a lot of questions. Then we start to develop an interest in spirituality or in a supreme being. But then, when our lives don't go smoothly, we blame the supreme being (God doesn't like you all that much!). Later on we decide that we don't have free will, so it doesn't matter what we do or how much we screw up, it's not our fault anyway, right? And the screw ups, they don't matter, because it's just an illusion, right?
right...
There is an 'illusion' but you don't know half about how it works (neither do I btw)

At this point some will remain on autopilot, but some of us are getting 'smarter' and they notice the little hints and coincidences thrown at them, it may take them a while to realize, but eventually they understand that these little pointers are the answers to the questions they asked (which road to take, where to look,etc..)
After this, a lot of people get stuck... they don't understand what it all means and what to make of it. IMO this is because most people DON'T know what they really want, they want conflicting things or sending out mixed signals. (Hint: if you know the one thing you want, then you know where the pointers will guide you to.... this is a biggie )

I can go on and on, but if you don't get my point yet then I'm not sure how to make it any more clear.

The thing is, if you know exactly what you want to achieve then you do have the free will to work towards it. I'm the best example for what I wrote above, it are my experiences and those of a lot of other people I talked this over with.
I get everything I want, not because it's handed out to me, but because I focus on it and work towards it. I want it, I go get it (free will) You would be surprised how well this technique works if you try it.
10 years ago I had nothing but a lot of debt.
Now I have a lovely family (a husband and a daughter who I adore), a house on the country with a lovely garden, a good going business of my own, a nice car, money in the bank and 3 lovely pets.
When I'm not working I do the things I love (writing and art).
And the best of all is, I don't have to say 'thank you' to anyone because I did it all by myself. Did I make it to this point because of my good business skills? Did I won a lottery? LOL no, I did it with my spiritual beliefs. (With the freedom of making choices and the freedom to act)

'No free will' my a**
you have free will, but if you want to use it you need to be smart with it and remember that you are responsible for your own actions, only you! (how many people do you think can handle that? think about it)

Originally posted by Jezus
We do have free will, but people don't understand their own desires fully.

People don't know exactly what they want or why they want what they want.

Originally posted by v01i0
To me it seems as if you have just debunked yourself

Just because people don't fully comprehend their own feelings doesn't change the fact that they act on those feelings.

Free will doesn't mean you get exactly what you want.

It means you can do what you want but you don't have complete control over the results of those actions.

Originally posted by v01i0
So, everyone wants happiness to themselves and mostly even for others. But we cannot have this.

I would disagree.

This belief is a result of will and will is a result of this belief.

Feelings and thoughts simultaneously influence each other.

reply to post by Jezus


I think I understand what you mean. OK, granted: We have free will to want whatever we will - BUT - this will is biologically and culturally (as explained in my previous reply to you) bound. So, put bluntly: We cannot think outside the box, so to speak. So our will is not entirely free. From this basis I deny the existence of real free will and can only accept the freedom of choice.

-v

I always used to reassure myself that having a Conscience was proof enough that we do indeed have some form of Free Will. After all, what would the existence of a Conscience serve if it were not to make choices between good and evil? The thing is that it just might be another cog in the wheel that makes the Illusion (Free Will) seem more believable and harder to resist. (Most people don't like to be told that they are not in control of their own destiny).

Originally posted by Dark Ghost
I always used to reassure myself that having a Conscience was proof enough that we do indeed have some form of Free Will. After all, what would the existence of a Conscience serve if it were not to make choices between good and evil? The thing is that it just might be another cog in the wheel that makes the Illusion (Free Will) seem more believable and harder to resist. (Most people don't like to be told that they are not in control of their own destiny).

Some people are born without a conscience or the ability to feel it.

Free will is an illusion, but so is everything else...Free will only exists in ignorance, and only for a limited time...That being said free will does exist as long as you like your cage. That is what everybody on this planet is trying to achieve "living in a cage that you like and want" not seeing the bigger picture is pivotal to having free will, because if you did see the bigger picture, then you would see that you are a insignificant fish in a universe of bigger fish.... Look at all those that are happy...what are they happy abouth? They are happy with there illusion...but anyone that is awakend can see and know when that will come to an end, and some can even end there little dream if they so wished. So for some, why spoil there little world/universe.... sooner or later it will end...Ignorance is a blessing and a curse. Free will exists, we all are free to chose our cages....so do it cautiouslly.

Originally posted by v01i0
reply to post by Jezus

 

I think I understand what you mean. OK, granted: We have free will to want whatever we will - BUT - this will is biologically and culturally (as explained in my previous reply to you) bound. So, put bluntly: We cannot think outside the box, so to speak. So our will is not entirely free. From this basis I deny the existence of real free will and can only accept the freedom of choice.

-v

True, we are who we are, but we still control our path into the future.

We are already on a path but that doesn't mean we are not free to continue in our own way.

We have to construct our will one choice at a time.

reply to post by lagenese


Nice OP. Very occult, very intelligent.

Above all things man is a rebel. Man cannot eat, sleep, or explore life unless he believes he does so freely, he will extend all his resources just to convince himself of the fact, while the gods laugh.

Edit to add, we see this everywhere in mythology namely Oedipus by Sophocles. Those who would desire the feeling of their own freedom, to experience the God-like, are fated to misery and self-destruction. Less they are blinded before they begin to "see". Also, it is a nice artistic nuance to have prophets be frequently blind or hindered in some physical way. One of Dostoevsky's characters was an epileptic and could only experience the higher aspects of existence during these attacks.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by AProphet1233]

I do believe it is possible that free will is entirely an illusion. An emergent property of consciousness, which in and of itself might simply be an emergent behavior. I come at it from a slightly less mystical point of view, but I absolutely am open to the very real possibility that some sort of dualism or spiritual process allows for whatever the mechanism of our "presence" here may or may not be.

I don't want to advertise my own thread, but I related my thoughts on this in this thread which ended up inconclusive, but leaning toward a sort of "quantum mechanical compatibilism in which the complex systems from which our consciousnesses emerge do make choices and selections, and those choices and selections are largely unpredictable, but in which those choices and selections are ultimately determined beyond the will of an "I" or "ego" as we traditionally imagine it." If interested, check it out.

This is a topic I am simultaneously fascinated and frightened by lol.

People don't take into account the biological factor, like brain cells, neurons, the biological.
They forgot that we store information, things are way two complexe for us to understand.
For me it's simple from now on, diging only maekes it worst, If I can remember then there must be something to it, the memory remains, and based on that we take decisions. People have to take into account something, it's not free will but free choice, the very meaning of will is like a testament, will and choice are two things apart?
A will is something left over. So it's bolth we have choices to make out of chaos and chaos is infinity. Like little dots on tv. People go crazy over this stuff. I like the idea that at least I chose little things like what to buy or what to wear today.

Free will is only the beginning.

Flap. Flap. Flap.

None of us has free will and never did.

As far as free goes,we are no more than "Free Range Serfs".

There are good reasons some don't want us to realise this.....

I don't expect most to understand,but if you study history and connect the dots.

It's Too Obvious.

reply to post by malacandra
From a religious standpoint,we are supposedly granted free will over whether we choose to live a certain way,and go to heaven.

Or live another way,and rot in hell.

Somehow,to me that doesn't seem like free will as much as an ultimatum.

reply to post by lagenese

It's not free will but free choice, will is something you leave as a testament, sounds familiar ? Old testament New testament ? It's what you do in the now. A will is something left from generation to generation, will and choice I think are two things apart. Will only go's forward without pulling left or right.

When people say I will do something it's ploted, planed and guessed. It's the instance of choice that is important.
It's why thinking of the future is predictable. However instinct is not, nothing wrong with thinking but true choice comes in an instance like a snap, , the spark of life. Words have become twisted around, will is nothing but going forward, something left behind that go's ahead, something like play, stop, pause in the same direction.

reply to post by pepsi78


I respect your opinion. To my way of seeing it, "choice" is also an illusion. As long as the ego is dominated in one way or another, he has no choice. The game of life is there for all to see and integrate, until we are set free from the physical realm and any form of domination.

Oh, how I LOVE this debate...I often find myself standing alone in a room of opposing faces when I bring up the whole "you know...you don't have free will" topic. But, I feel my argument is sound enough, so allow me to add it to this great post.

The human brain is, apart from other things, a highly sophisticated computer. We have five senses which we use to observe and interact with the reality around us. These senses send information (data) to the brain for processing. The brain then decides on an action, and commands the body to carry said action out. While here, on this physical plain of existance, you are your brain. Working on a incredibly complex input/output system...so the eternal question is do YOU control your brain?

Of course not.

The reason we have this "illusion" of free will is because we are an incredibly evolved species. Once we were able to foresee our own eventual death, once we gained the ability to question existance, the brain had no choice but to create this illusion. Humanity is so impressive, so immense and grand that we HAD to be more than simple life forms reacting to the stimuli of our environment...even if we consider almost every other form of life to be just that. Then, there is also the question of the fourth dimension (time).

Do not think of time as linear, or moving forwards. We percieve the passing of time, but that is only because the temporal dimension of time is having a specific effect on our third-dimensional existance. IMO, time exists in it's entirety as a stationary dimenson of our universe. If anything is moving, it's us. Time is a river, and we're all being swept along where the current carries us, and all the time without an oar. We see a fork in the road, and the brain seemingly decides to either go left or right. BUT, you are the sum of your experiences. If you decide to take the path on then right, it is because you were always going to take that path. The left road might as well never have existed, because you were never going to travel it.

Believing this does not prevent me from being a spiritual person, however. I believe that we are more than flesh and blood and bone. The life that we experience while here is for the individual alone...to grant experience to a being that does not yet fully understand what it is. We are children, learning how to walk. We are the larval state of something that is truly amazing and incredible...but instead of wondering what that might be, we hold to this physical existance. We question every "choice" that is made, and wonder if it was "the right one". Peace lies in the realization that there never was a choice.


GtkP

I don't get it either. I think this person is operating from a somewhat higher level of the matrix if you will.

There is still more to free will than has been expressed thus far, and that is faith. Yes, there are signs all around us that attempt to point us in the right direction. Right direction? What does that have to do with free will? It's another as yet generally unacknowledged sense. Yes, the five, but there are more if we choose to acknowledge them. And then there is still more beyond that, both incoming and outgoing (so to speak). But then we get spooky, right? "That's not rational, that's not intelligent." "Use your brain." Forget your brain. Use your heart. That's the true seat of knowledge. The brain is for analysis but that's only as good as the information it receives. "Rational thinking" eliminates a great deal of essential information. What good is limited analysis? Don't think in 3D. The picture is a lot bigger than that.

Remember too that all things are occurring at the same "time" too, so nothing is isolated or independent of anything else. When you see the interplay of all this, it really becomes quite a fascinating exercise we're "living".

Free will is not an illusion at all. It just doesn't work until you understand it and to understand it, you have to practice. You do have free will though, of that you can be quite certain.