Will there ever be a Messiah in this chaotic world?

I have come out as a Atheist on ATS. Several other users should already know that I don't believe in any particular religious belief. Still I enjoy to read about Biblical and Koranic characters; as well other religious beliefs. I know the majority of ATS members are either Christian or non religious from what I have seen with my time on here. For about a couple weeks I have been studying the Messiah concept in Judaism. Yes it is as controversial as it was it is now and just as confusing. Now I'm not here to bash people who believe in Jesus. I just want to present from what I read and see what my other members think of my research. Since this has roots in religion I'm going to use a lot of source from other sites. Sorry mods if I over do the copy and paste! Let's first understand what the Messiah concept is.
www.simpletoremember.com...

The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, which means “Anointed.” It usually refers to a person initiated into God’s service by being anointed with oil. (Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3) Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah). For example: “God forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the Lord’s Messiah [Saul]...” (I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from? One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of God. (Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection. (Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed king as The Messiah. The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future. We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.

Now that we understand the fundamentals of what the future messiah is going to accomplish when he presents him self. Now let's understand the family line from King David.

www.jewfaq.org...

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being. It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.

Now how could we prove a person who fit's all these characteristics I already presented to be the Messiah. How can he be a despondent from King David?

Here is more information on what the Messiah is supposed to accomplish.

www.jewfaq.org...

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16) The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Now that we got all this out of the way I'm up for answering questions on this subject and I want to hear your opinions on the Messiah concept in Judaism. From my point of view I highly doubt there will ever be a Messiah. One over look people will miss is how can the Messiah prove he is the descendant of King David.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

How can he be a descendant from King David?

The Greeks did a number on Israel and we have this history that the Jewish holiday Hanukkah commemorates. Judas Maccabeus was from the faction of the priesthood which would not go with the demands imposed by the Greeks and led a revolt of the disaffected. He died in battle but his family members continued 'till they gained the victory. This was the beginning of the Hasmonean Dynasty which was the true priest/king messiahship represented later in the person of John Hyracanus who coupled up with Antipator, the father of Herod, to bring about order while the world was in political convulsion.
So the matter of fact Messiah would have come from this Hasmonean line and that would have been John the Baptist, who turned it down, and then to his cousin Jesus who was appointed High Priest by none other than Pontius Pilate.


[edit on 30-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Here is more information of the genealogy of Jesus.
www.messiahtruth.com...

I believe this article would answer some of our questions we have. Tell me what you think.

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel


After looking over this messiah problem the Jews have I think I figured out what got screwed up 2000 years ago.

Herod triggered the curse of Malachi.

Per the New Testament Jesus Christ thought John the Baptist was Elijah. And according to Malachi Elijah has some important duties in the temple at and after the time of the end.

John's premature death by Herod triggered the curse. So what is the curse then?

After looking I found the prophecy for the curse in Hosea. you shoud read the entire book to get the concept. Hosea creating the simile of Israel as a whore for violating the Covenant of Moses and then outlining her punishments.

And then in verse 6-2 we get the timeframe of the curse.

After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Which makes no sense unless you are aware of this little detail. From 2nd Peter 3-8.

But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Thouse days are thousand year periods of time. The Jews were to face a 2 thousand year top level Leviticus 26 curse.

The Messiah should come near the end of the curse. Sometime before 2028 at the latest. And it should be the Messiah and the 1 or maybe 2 messengers according to Malachi 3-1. Or God and 2 messengers.

And a thought for the Jewish websites. They should consider this little detail of the curse. " lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Perhaps he was just a simple messiah and then was possessed by God to fulfill this part of the curse.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by ntech]

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
When the Jews came out of exile from Babylon to rebuild the temple in Jerusalem, it was a minority of the Jews there, plus the Jews who were taken into captivity by the Babylonians in the first place from Judea was a minority and they mainly took people of noble birth.
So who came back? People who had a stake in restoring Judea, like Zerubbabel, who was descended directly from a king. My point being, by the time of Jesus, anyone with backgrounds going back to those returnees, who had not bred with outsiders, could claim somewhere in their genealogy to be from the house of David, including the father of John the Baptist who said of his son, "the lord has raised a horn in the house of David".
I think the important thing is the priestly lineage of Jesus. Supposedly there was the murder of the innocents, by Herod to remove people who could challenge his rule. John Hyracanus was the Hasmonean king/high priest and his head of the military was Antipater who was an Idumean, meaning not even a Jew. Herod, the son of Antipater grew up as a military person and later a successful general. He systematically eliminated legitimate heirs to Hyracanus and consolidated his own position by allying himself with the Romans and giving the Emperor money to finance his wars and took trips to Rome to be declared King.
If he wanted to fully eliminate the Hasmonean line he would need to find replacements to take up the position of High Priest, which he put up to the highest bidder. That was Caiaphas who in turn were usurpers like Herod and had no legitimate claim to it. Now the High Priest had to enter the Most Holy Place once a year but they dared not so they had to recruit a member of the proper clan to go in. So there was a small group who survived in order for the system to continue and for offerings to keep coming in.


[edit on 31-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

Instead of making this such a lecture, I put it into a conversational format.
Here is how I imagine that things went:
Pilate: Hey, Joseph, so good to see you my old friend!
Arimathea: So what brings you to this desolate part of the world?
Pilate: I was given the prefecture over Judea.
Arimathea: Tough assignment, how do you propose to deal with this province?
Pilate: I was hoping to run into someone like yourself who had an insight into the current situation.
Arimathea: The father of the Prince, Herod the Great, allowed Caiaphas to create a dynasty out of the High priesthood and are handing it down from one member of the clan to the next as if they owned it as a birthright, which is completely against tradition. If there was anyone who earned that sort of right, it would be the Hasmonians, who actually did something of importance, as in defeating the Greeks. This combined the offices of High Priest, which they already had a right to, with the kingship, which they won the right to.
What we have now is a weakened kingship, thanks in part to the Romans, if I can say so.
Pilate: You may. That is what we do, like what we find here, where the old great king dies and we come in and split the country into three parts, one for each of his sons. That way we have an easier time bullying a small country that is perpetual rivals with its neighbors. Plus we control the trade routes and put all commerce under our subjugation, that way the country does not have enough money to finance a war to attempt to throw us off their back.
Arimathea: Right. Well to continue, given the conditions you just described, it opens up the opportunity for very ruthless people such as the ones I mentioned, to create their own little kingdom within a kingdom. An example of this is how they have built up the Temple Guard into their own private army and claim jurisdiction over the greater Jerusalem.
Pilate: So what do you suppose I do to get a handle on things.
Arimathea: You have a castle in the Tower Antonia in the Temple grounds, where the Romans have been keeping the High Priest's vestments, giving you de facto control over who is allowed to wear it.
Plate: And. . .
Arimathea: You have the power to appoint the high Priest.
Pilate: OK. . .
Arimathea: Put that ability to use to break their monopoly of power and take control for yourself. You really must, you know.
Pilate: Hah! Since you are so smart and have a grasp of the current reality, tell me who do you suppose I appoint.
Arimathea: I know just the young man to fit the bill. He is from the clan that has the right, really, to wear those vestments and he would be accepted readily by the people. He is like old Hyracanus, it is said. You know he had the power to heal, see things from afar, and to predict the future.
Pilate: You don't say! . . .Could that not be a dangerous thing?
Arimathea: Oh, no, remember the old Hyracanus was so holy he only wanted the priestly part of the job and let Antipator run the civil side, and was a great ally to the Romans. To tell you the truth, I think this man I am proposing to you will love you and completely acquiesce all worldly power to you.
Pilate: Perfect! When can I meet him?
Arimathea: I am like an uncle to his mother and know the family very well. I will bring him over to you right away.

Note: when I write, "the old Hyracanus" I mean John Hyracanus the elder. His son was also named John Hyracanus, the source of much confusion when reading the history.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


I can't see Pontius Pilate anointing Jesus to be the Messiah. Because Pontius Pilate was not a Jew. How can a person of non Jewish belief anoint a person of a different religion to be the Messiah? It is hard to explain Jesus life; numerous people today interpret him differently so it is hard to explain anything about Jesus. Personally I doubt he was the Messiah; but I bet he did live. We just interpret him very different than what he was in the past. Also I don't believe Jesus to be God since having God become a man will just be little God.
judaism.about.com...

Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19). Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel

can't see Pontius Pilate anointing Jesus to be the Messiah. Because Pontius Pilate was not a Jew.

That's history, and that is what happened, as far as Pilate replacing the High Priest with someone not of the Caiaphas family. It only lasted one year, then it was back to the way it was previously.
God anointed Jesus, that's what's in the Gospels. He was baptized by John and when he came up from the water, the Holy Spirit alighted upon him.
My point is whatever Jews may say today, at the time of Jesus, he would have been as legitimate as anyone to be the Messiah.

reply to post by jmdewey60


What are your thoughts on these questions Jews bring up about what the Messiah most accomplish in order to prove he is the Messiah.
If you mind go through this list and tell me your thoughts.
www.aish.com...
judaism.about.com...

Also read thoroughly through this site and tell me what you think.
www.messiahtruth.com...

reply to post by Romantic_Rebel
I don't know if you are a non-religious Jew or something.
Years ago when I was studying the history of Jesus, there was a Rabbi here, where I live in Florida who was a Doctor, meaning he had a doctorate degree, and it was in the study of the split between the Jews and the Christians. He was sympathetic to my quest and defended me to the congregation to be allowed to attend their services. Also I took classes from him on the history of Judaism and learned Hebrew.
Well, that's one way to go about doing things, which is to have respect for other people's traditions. The sort of quasi-Jewish stuff that goes on is not exactly right and I doubt it ever does any good and probably attracts more Christians wanting a different kind of ritual, than any Jews, unless possibly they never had any proper training in regular Judaism.
When I was asked what I thought about Jesus at the temple, I said, "Paul had no interest in the man and actually denigrated some of his manners. Paul met a different kind of Jesus in vision and never gave any thought to a real live living person called Jesus."
Jews are smart and know their stuff and they probably see right through Christianity and see hardly any resemblance to anything they know and can spot the Greek theology coming through, that of course was written in Greek by Greeks.
Back just before Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, the people of the city were put upon by a bunch of warlike Idumeans who wanted nothing to do with peace. They manged to have someone let them in one of the gates and things went downhill from there.
So as a last resort, the city elders brought up an old man, who was highly respected, to give an appeal to the Idumeans to leave so they could let the Romans in, so they would not be destroyed along with the trouble makers. He was an ex High Priest named Jesus. He told them what would happen if they did not follow his advice. Of course we know how it turned out, and things would have been better if they had listened to Jesus.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


I love chatting with you. You seem to know your stuff; even though it's the Christian perspective. I would love to talk to you about this, but I am quite busy now. However, very soon the Holy Temple in Jerusalem will be rebuilt, and Jews from all corners of the world will once again be living Jewishly and peacefully in Israel. If at that time it is apparent to you that Jesus had anything to do with it, or if you even happen to see him around at that time, meet me in a Jerusalem Café and we will discuss it then.