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Question: Why do we have to pay to live on a planet we were born on?

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posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 11:35 PM
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Originally posted by artofjaymz

 


The problem of course with both the original posting in this forum AND the response from the user I am replying to in this section (though I am, in truth replying to everyone involved) is money. That of course is always the root of problems such as these. We all have natural rights, but due to mankind's obsession with printed paper as the solution to everything (financial bills, political contracts.....charmin toilet paper) nobody will do anything for free.


are you saying if there was different system of paying your debts people would work for free? or are you saying if there was no paper money people wouldnt demand something of value for their time, efforts and work? logic 101.


Originally posted by artofjaymzIf things WERE made free though, you would have the most greedy and criminal of mankind try to horde it all selfishly anyways, and we'd STILL not be getting what is ours, even in the absence of TPTB.


you have many points jumbled up in one. decompose it. you were talking about free vs charged. like many pointed out something costs because someone has to get off their butt and work to produce something you want. that person is in his right to charge you for the fruits of his work. if you baked 10 breads and someone demanded 4 of them for free as his inherent right of being born on this planet wouldnt you laugh it off? it has nothing to do with anarchy.

Originally posted by artofjaymz Of course, this just makes it all the more obvious that at some point in man's history, somebody invented money out of fear that they'd be killed for goods they owned if they should refuse to share. Whether the inventor of money was a scheming trickster, or just a small person who didn't stand a chance otherwise, who's to say.....but rest assured, money is the reason TPTB ever BECAME TPTB in the first place. They didn't invent the problem, they're just it's investors.


man, history 101. paper money was invented to get rid of heavy friggin boulders as a means of exchange or inconvenient barter system. besides absence of paper money wouldnt stop someone hell bent from exploiting you.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by meshuggah11]




posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 11:37 PM
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My apologies if this has been mentioned before and disclose I haven't read the whole thread yet ... but to address the above question:

The question is a good one but the way it is constructed is flawed by definition.

Truth is we don't actually 'pay' for anything, we just exchange pieces of paper and the paper itself is all but worthless.

A better way to frame the question is, why do we create mental conceptual contrivances such as property, money, payment, etc, and trade within these invented and substantively meaningless abstract values?

Sure seems like an efficient way to empower some over others doesn't it?


[edit on 1 Sep 2010 by schrodingers dog]



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 11:45 PM
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I've been asking questions like this since I was a child...I never understood property taxes or having to get permits to do what you want on your own house/property. I never understood curfew laws as a teen, although I knew they were there because of some bad eggs, but I just didn't get it....whenever I asked my parents they would say "that's just the way it is" and I could never accept that



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 11:46 PM
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I didn't read all the posts, or watch the video, but some or maybe most or maybe all of you need to head on down to your local community college and take a basic course in economics.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 12:04 AM
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Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by ofhumandescent

Okay ATS members, why in sam hell do we have to pay to live on a planet we were born on.


My apologies if this has been mentioned before and disclose I haven't read the whole thread yet ... but to address the above question:

The question is a good one but the way it is constructed is flawed by definition.

Truth is we don't actually 'pay' for anything, we just exchange pieces of paper and the paper itself is all but worthless.

A better way to frame the question is, why do we create mental conceptual contrivances such as property, money, payment, etc, and trade within these invented and substantively meaningless abstract values?

Sure seems like an efficient way to empower some over others doesn't it?


money- it`s just the means of getting fruits of someone`s labor, time, efforts. bartering with the whole world would be hella difficult if possible.

payment- if someone was fishing in the Arctic while you were sunbathing it`s only fair to demand something of value if you want the fish, because the person invested his time and effort into fishing. he could be sunbathing too, you know.

property- seriously i dont see why it should be a strange concept. you wouldnt want anyone do anything they want to YOUR car that you worked hard to be able to pay someone for it who worked hard to make it possible (come up with concept of engines, design it, sell cars all day at the dealer`s etc.)



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 12:28 AM
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Originally posted by wasco2
I didn't read all the posts, or watch the video, but some or maybe most or maybe all of you need to head on down to your local community college and take a basic course in economics.



Or you can save yourself the money and time and gas, or if its one of them fancy rich peoples colleges, the depth...And go to the library, or who know's even use the computer....Now that would be economical, first rule of economics..if you can do something easyer and cheaper "do it", second rule if you can find a idiot to do it for you "thats even better" truly economical in deed. Anyways I like your post it was the funniest so far, I gave you a star.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 12:37 AM
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Originally posted by wasco2
I didn't read all the posts, or watch the video, but some or maybe most or maybe all of you need to head on down to your local community college and take a basic course in economics.


Serious. Would it be of any interest to the Mods to move this to the Grey Area or General Conspiracies perhaps? The title has nothing to do with UFO/Aliens, and no one is discussing UFO's or Aliens. Just my observation...



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 05:35 AM
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Why do we have to pay to live on a planet we were born on?

We don't

You can go to live in the street and die of hunger.

That's how society works.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 05:38 AM
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reply to post by game over man
 


Well crap , everyone is doing exactly what I hate Collier for. Ignoring the proper points of UFO research like attempting some scientific proof, and going straight for the politics. Would all the hippies please leave so those of us who are interested in aliens froma scientific perspective can get some serious thinking done?



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 06:28 AM
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Originally posted by TrueBrit
Would all the hippies please leave so those of us who are interested in aliens froma scientific perspective can get some serious thinking done?


Good advice.

I barely go to the UFO discussion anymore because it's full of hoaxes and most of these people believe in them straight away and I can almost see the hoaxers laughing at their expense.

Plus to that it takes time to look for solid cases that you might actually juice something out of.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 06:33 AM
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reply to post by Jonas86
 


See , I dont mind trawling the board for a decent thread, thats alot of work some months, and I dont even mind getting the occasional hoax come up every now and again, keeps us on our toes. But the sheer levels of hoaxing now, and all the fools flooding to bow before our new masters (or some such other bull) is making it very difficult to find a real case amongst all the tosh.
I mean when did ATS turn into Woodstock ?



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 06:39 AM
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reply to post by meshuggah11
 


That's outstanding work, your conditioning has taken well, your teachers must be proud ... A+ for assimilating and propagating.

Of course I'm pretty sure the OP was looking for perhaps a slightly more deconstructive perspective, you know, the kind that puts in question the mental concepts you have taken to so completely.

My apologies for my snarkiness, I thought we were past the obvious.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 07:29 AM
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.... Money=your contribution to Mankind...
.....it has to be mearsured .. by some means.. to give meaning toward your contribution...
....



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 07:43 AM
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Originally posted by tigpoppa

Why does water cost money?
Purification costs money. The pipes and the maintenance guys who work on them have families to feed like you do so that is why it costs money.

You are free to drink water from the ocean or any river, the thing is it isnt good for you and contains harmful bacteria. Noone charges you of course for doing this yourself or collecting your own supply in rain barrels.


actually in some places you CANNOT collect water in rain barrels, since you would be stealing from the water table. I forget where, but I think some places in California do not allow rain barrels.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 09:54 AM
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reply to post by ofhumandescent
 


A simple song can remind people of exactly who owns this land.

Woody Guthrie- This Land Is Your Land


Sure, you might have to purchase land, from individuals who bought it first.

It was not that way at one time, until the white man took it from Native Americans.

Remember that, prior to America existing, as a country, it was owned by none.

It was shared by all freely.

But it was stolen away from people first so as to later turn around and sell it.

I would be interested to hear about each countries origins more from the perspective of members from each country, to see just how they feel about how their country evolved from land with no ownership, to the present day.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 10:11 AM
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reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas
 


Well here in Britain the earliest records suggest that even before records began , the tribes were territorial and fought for farming rights, and for most other reasons as well
amongst themselves on a fairly regular basis. However in terms of personal ownership, I do not believe that land was ever owned by single persons, or families in those early times, but merely by the tribe. Within that , people would take on responsibilities like farming, and so on, and loose understandings were in place for those arrangements, but no ownership other than that of the tribe was placed on land .
After the Roman invasion ,followed by its hasty exit, things were very different. Individual ownership had begun to flower, and went from families being territorial over ownership , to having one man kill another for his purse. Alot of things went wrong for Britain at that time. It took on civilised society, knew the smell of conquest, and had tasted blood ... its never really forgotten , and unfortunately it never will. The only thing Britain has forgotten , is the decency of Pre Roman days, and the relative peace we all lived by, when you forget the french , the viking and the roman attacks.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 10:32 AM
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Since the very first human took his first kill in his first hunt and decided who got what meat, this has been a "this is mine" society.

It goes back to the dawn of humanity.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 10:42 AM
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Originally posted by brutalsun
I've always pondered the same question. Why do I have to pay for things that are necessary to life? I'm not talking about extravagances I'm talking about the 4 basics; shelter, water, food, fire(warmth).

You don't have to. You choose to.

1.) You pay for shelter because you're paying for someone else to manufacture the parts and build it for you on private land. Go cut down your own trees, mill the wood into 2X4's and build your own house in the desert on a random piece of land. You can do it for free. All it costs is your time. You just choose to buy wood that someone else manufactured for you from Home Depot, and you choose to pay contractors to build your house. You're paying for services.

2.) Water is free. Drill your own well. You just have to pay for the electricity to pump it - unless you want to generate it yourself.

3.) Food is free. Start hunting and gathering. Why should Shop Rite give you free food? You're paying for convenience.

4.) Fire is free. Go cut down some trees, dry them out for 12 months and start banging flint together.

All these things ARE free. You just don't feel like doing all the work yourself. You pay for convenience, just like everyone else.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 12:39 PM
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Then I come on here and see this post...

I see people throwing their paychecks around like they mean anything.

Wow you used to make $143k (of debt) a year? Let's begin with money, it's a crock. It's used to keep people in service, those who have a large abundance of it, have more leverage over those who have less of it.

In the developed western world and many far-eastern countries right now we have an epidemic that gets ignored simply because it's been reflected against the genocides and dirt poor developing nations that are a result of our intrepid greed. You may make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and to your peers that's pretty good, but it pales in comparison to the amount of money accrued by the banks and ruling elite. If you're lower middle-class like I am (because I was born into American-poverty and am a "starving" student of science, currently pursuing a degree in astronomy) and you make say 15-17k a year, that's pretty good. It's not enough to make a name for your family, fulfill your longings or any of that noise created by propaganda or your own "unique" self-delusions, but it's enough to keep you able to pay the bills that make the banks and the elite ruling class maintain their capital and increase revenue. In the end maybe you're left with 25 bucks at the end of the week if you're at the bottom of the barrel, that's what credits for (also an easy way to get people who have no common grasp of what money "really is" trapped even further in debt, SLAVERY.) and that 25 bucks can buy ya some weed, or some beer if you feel froggy enough and then that emptiness you feel goes away until you have to go back to work. Drudgery, until the day you die. I'm going to college, because I am one who plans to change this whole thing. Or they can kill me as I try. You don't need to know my name. Some people are lucky, and they work their way up from 15-40k, shake the right hands and you just might end up at 100-150. Ooh yeah a 3 digit salary, now you can get that LED screen and your new effin' Jetski, CASH! You know what, if you think life is about common wealth, or worldly possessions that's great but in the end even though you think you're "rich" you're only upper-middle class, the top tier of the slave racket.

In America our founding fathers made sure that the constitution and the foundries of this countries industries would create a iron-wall against any sort of Rebellion. To ensure they maintained a ruling class, a working class and a slave class. Well the slave class went away, but the tasks did not. The gap grew and now the working class are slaves, engendered with funds no longer backed by a substance (gold, silver etc), but instead by debt (The Banks). The money system had it been done it way with had it initially been proposed in the earlier stages of getting rid of slavery, had been kept when a new system had been devised. Why worry about slaves when we can mix the slaves into the working class, and create a new hybrid to allow us to live in our "perpetual Eden"?

We need to take back the Earth. It's going to be hard. We've been trying for years, in fact since the very beginning, thats how amendments get made, thats how laws and precedences take form. Unfortunately, it hasn't been enough. The ruling class still has the power to veto everything, the only solution is revolution. It may cost lives, it should be done peacefully however. I say this because any violent attempt against the establishment is always seen as "Terrorism" if it doesn't look that way at first glance, the media-arm of the beast will surely make sure that they change the story to fit with the official side taken by the establishment. The tyrants have far seen it that any sort of insurrection would make them look beautiful and us (the rebels) as terrorists. Not to say Al Qaeda, or IRA members are saints, that's not what I'm saying but any enemy of "America's Imperial Agenda" is a terrorist.

[edit on 1-9-2010 by signoregregorio]



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
reply to post by ofhumandescent
 


A simple song can remind people of exactly who owns this land.



Ummm, no, Woody Guthrie was a devout communist and committed to doing his part to create a communist United States. He would best be described as one of Stalin's "useful idiots".





Sure, you might have to purchase land, from individuals who bought it first.

It was not that way at one time, until the white man took it from Native Americans.

Remember that, prior to America existing, as a country, it was owned by none.

It was shared by all freely.



Not exactly. While they may not have claimed the land itself Native Americans fought many wars among themselves over hunting and resource rights.

Most of the land in America was bought from the Native Americans. They thought no one owned the land so they were swindling the Europeans. Imagine their surprise when they figured out Europeans took property rights seriously.

It is also important to understand that private property rights are key to our civilization. Without private property rights we would still be hunter gatherers, as the Native Americans were when the Europeans arrived.

And last, the term "Native American" to refer to descendants of North American aboriginals really rankles me. They didn't evolve here, their ancestors walked across the land bridge from Asia at the end of the last ice age. My ancestors came in sailing ships from England and Scotland in the 18th century. I was born in Augusta, GA, I'm just as much a Native American as anyone who's ancestors walked here from a different foreign country.



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