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FACTS about "Ground Zero" "Mosque"

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posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 09:55 PM
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Hi all,

I think what people against the mosque being built on this site are really trying to say "there is a time and a place" and i would agree.
For the people who would be pro-mosque so to speak it would be a place of worship for them. They should not be blamed for what happened on 911. But the reality is that however we view the atrocity that occured on this day, the majority of us dicussing this matter may not have been really personally affected by it. Meaning we may not have lost a member of family or a loved one. We can dicuss the matter here and take sides but we may never know the truth (if different from what be have been led to believe).
The reality is that any individual and family who has had to part with someone who died in this disaster will have very negative feelings toward the perpetrators. Seeing as though the perpetrators have been labelled in the MSM as being of Muslim origin, I think it is only natural to see their point of view and also the point of view of the anti-Mosque people on here. A lot of people died on this site and its vicinity. It is not so easy just to say "forgive and forget" or "every muslim cannot be treated the same as the 911 perpetrators".
For example (and I am not picking on any group in particular as I have many friends from the mentioned country below): Any German will tell you how difficult it may be for them to engage in conversation regarding WWII. Most feel embarrassed talking about this subject as they know what happened. However they had nothing to do with it. This does not mean that they would decide to open a anything relating to Nazi's on or around the site of Auschwitz or its vicinity ever! Even if it was for historical and educational purposes.
I think Muslims have the right to pray (and by the way I know many Muslims who are of the same opinion as myself) but feel that this is a very inappropriate area to be planning to build a new Mosque (I understand there are already some in that area).
I think this shows no feelings towards the victims and will only encourage more resentment in the long run.




posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 09:58 PM
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It is okay for you to consider the building as being part of ground zero, but it is not okay to insinuate that anyone who doesn't agree with you is not very smart.


No, it's perfectly ok.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 10:07 PM
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How long should Muslims be forced to wear this unwarranted "scarlet letter" for a crime that they didn't personally commit?

10 years? (It's been almost this long since the attacks occurred)

20 years?

50 years?

100 years?

For most of those opposed, I'd guess that the answer would be forever.

Persecution of all Muslim Americans for the actions of 19 extremist who they never knew is wrong, and runs counter to the spirit that this country was founded on. Where dies the craziness end? When will people come to their senses and realize that abandoning Constitutional protections to appease the ignorant masses isn't a solution?



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 10:37 PM
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this is all so rediculous...has anybody actually taken their heads out of their butt to stop and think not all muslims are bad because of a few rotten eggs...perhaps these people are praying about world peace and praying for happiness for everybody...and now we have these people that are trying to take that away from somebody...



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 10:56 PM
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So you guys really believe Muslims were behind 911? That's pretty funny. I'll humor you, though.

If a group of Muslims really were solely responsible for 911 (they werent), I would definitely have an issue with a mosque being built anywhere NEAR ground zero. When it comes down to it, innocent muslims should take it upon themselves to respect why so many people are upset. Whether or not they were involved or wanted it to happen means little. It happened. Those supposedly responsible were islamic extremists. If my brother ran down a little kid while driving drunk, should it reflect on me as a person? No (whether it will or not is of little consequence), but I also shouldn't try to have his grave site built where it happened, because that IS wrong. It's not about the freedom to build something there, it's about a slap in the face to the majority of the people in this country.

But, again, that point is moot and only matters if you choose to remain ignorant of the real story behind the trade center sham. The bottom line is this: 911 wasn't the product of some half-wit living in a cave. It's much deeper and darker than that. I could care less if they build a mosque there. If I weren't informed, I sure as hell would care, though.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 11:25 PM
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reply to post by nunya13
 


Although these facts have been stated already numerous times here by plenty of members in various GZMosque threads, myself included, I guess there are still plenty of people who don't know the facts.

Since that seems to be the case, I'll S&F this thread.



- Lee



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 11:26 PM
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This has probably been said before but here goes;

If 9/11 was an inside job perpetrated by certain NeoCon members of the US Govt. Why all the objections to an Islamic cultural centre near ground zero? Have the Govt hoodwinked us once again?

This whole "clash of cultures" issue could simply be another diversionary tactic fabricated by the real 9/11 culprits to keep the good people bickering amongst themselves rather than working together to root out and punish the real terrorists of 9/11.

PEACE,
RK



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 11:44 PM
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Originally posted by Rigel Kent
This has probably been said before but here goes;

This whole "clash of cultures" issue could simply be another diversionary tactic fabricated by the real 9/11 culprits to keep the good people bickering amongst themselves rather than working together to root out and punish the real terrorists of 9/11.

PEACE,
RK


don't spoil the propaganda.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 12:52 AM
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Originally posted by camaro68ss
Are there any ratical...

Catholic groups that kill?

Yes. The Irish Republican Army was a Catholic organization built to defend Catholics in Ireland and promote Irish separatism.


Jewish?

Yes. The Gush Emunim Underground was an Israeli political movement responsible for attacks against Muslims and Palestinians.


Buddhist

Surprisingly, yes. Sinhala Buddhist groups in Sri Lanka have committed and advocated violence against Christians and Tamils.


Muslim

Obviously, yes. No example is necessary.


do any other group but muslim inslave there woman.

Yes. Offshoots of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS) (a.k.a. the Mormon church) still practice enforced polygyny to this day. In many cases, young girls are forced to marry and bear children for much older men who already have multiple wives.


Do any other group depict there leader always with a sword and saber (prophet Mohammed)

This seems mostly irrelevant to the comparison. Does Christianity advocate that the strongest believers crucify themselves?


Does any other group encourage conversion through violence like muslims?

Muslims oppose conversion by force because it is very easy to say, "Yes, I am a Muslim," when threatened with torture.


does any other group want to domanate the world through violence like muslims?

Yes, because Hitler never existed, powerful state Communism never existed, and there are no Christians who don't believe in a totalizing Christian government controlling the world.


peaceful my butt

Yeah, religion is pretty #ed up, eh?



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 02:01 AM
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Originally posted by exile1981
The Terrorists on 9-11 did it because they believed that there religion wanted them to do it. It's not the same thing.


Here's the thing, though: have you ever paid attention to what Al Q'aeda was saying? It's not a purely religious agenda. It's a complex socio-economic agenda with a religious backbone. These people subscribe not simply because they are religious. They subscribe because they are religious and dedicated to a particular cause - the Palestinians, for example. Or getting US military bases out of the Middle East and Central Asia. Perhaps these two together and a dozen others.

It is a complicated world out there. What's more is, you look at Tim McVeigh and you see all of the contours in his point of view. He wasn't just a Christian, he had all these other views too! But when you talk about crazy Muslims, you ignore that they are not just Muslims. There are other forces at work that drive them to become what they are.

There is absolutely a double standard at work here. Simply the fact that people talk about Al Q'aeda as if it's a purely religious organization is outrageous. Religion and Palestine are popular memes they use to support their cause, to help justify the actions they ask their followers to take. At the end of the day, however, these are not the reasons these organizations exist and they are not the reasons that certain people flock to them.

I'll tell you what else: organizations like Al'Qaeda are more dangerous and not less when powerful constituents help to polarize the attitudes of the population they appeal to and recruit from. Deny ignorance by realizing that Muslims are not your enemy and that terrorism cannot be understood in two dimensional terms.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 02:10 AM
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Originally posted by PPGrocks
this is all so rediculous...has anybody actually taken their heads out of their butt to stop and think not all muslims are bad because of a few rotten eggs...


True, but why does Islam have so many bad eggs compared to other religions?

On the 20th day of Ramadan, Islamic terrorists have so far launched 133 terror attacks and killed 565 people in the name of Islam.

Terrorists from all other religions combined have launched 1 attack and killed 1 person in the name of religion.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...

Muslim extremists have carried out violent attacks in the following countries in 2010:

Pakistan:
Afghanistan;
Iraq;
Thailand;
China;
Yemen;
Algeria;
India;
Palestine;
Somalia;
Russia;
Egypt;
Ingushetia;
Philippines;
Dagestan;
Jordan;
Mali;
Nigeria;
Uganda;
USA;
Kosovo;
Liberia
Chechnya;
Saudi Arabia;
Germany;
France;
Israel;
Bangladesh;
Lebanon;
Ethiopia;
DRC (Congo);
Ukraine.

www.thereligionofpeace.com...



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 02:15 AM
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Cracked.com (of all places) had a decent article about the mosque debate entitled "Three Reasons the Ground Zero Mosque Debate Makes No Sense," which you can find here: cracked article

One of the points (#2) the author makes is that with the place actually being a community center, it is not actually a mosque...


A mosque by definition is a purely religious structure. This is a large proposed community center, open to the public and set to house, among other things, a basketball court. Yes there will be a prayer space inside it as well, but you don’t call St. Mary’s Hospital a church because it happens to have a chapel inside it...


I thought his idea about not calling a hospital a church even though it has a chapel inside was a great point that I have not heard the talking heads mention.

Like I said, it is a decent article, very short...check it out if you want.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 04:12 AM
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Israel ("the Jewish state") attacked and almost destroyed a U.S. destroyer called U.S.S. Liberty in 1967, killing 34 crew members and injuring 170.

Therefore do the people who say there shouldn't be a mosque/Islamic cultural centre near Ground Zero also believe that there shouldn't be any synagogues near U.S. naval installations...???

Of course they don't.

Demonising Islam obviously is in the interests of some powerful manipulators in the world today. And it is sad to see many people in the U.S. apparently falling hook line and sinker for their divisive propaganda.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 04:14 AM
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Originally posted by thektotheg
So you guys really believe Muslims were behind 911? That's pretty funny. I'll humor you, though.

If a group of Muslims really were solely responsible for 911 (they werent), I would definitely have an issue with a mosque being built anywhere NEAR ground zero. When it comes down to it, innocent muslims should take it upon themselves to respect why so many people are upset. Whether or not they were involved or wanted it to happen means little. It happened. Those supposedly responsible were islamic extremists. If my brother ran down a little kid while driving drunk, should it reflect on me as a person? No (whether it will or not is of little consequence), but I also shouldn't try to have his grave site built where it happened, because that IS wrong. It's not about the freedom to build something there, it's about a slap in the face to the majority of the people in this country.

But, again, that point is moot and only matters if you choose to remain ignorant of the real story behind the trade center sham. The bottom line is this: 911 wasn't the product of some half-wit living in a cave. It's much deeper and darker than that. I could care less if they build a mosque there. If I weren't informed, I sure as hell would care, though.


From where and from whom did the label "Ground Zero" for the site of the fallen WTC towers come from? That's a bizarre misnomer. It is not a genuine "Ground Zero", is it?

Back to the point: Who was the originator of that label? What was the purpose and what is the effect of applying it here?



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 04:59 AM
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Originally posted by kiwifoot

Originally posted by Muckster
Thanks for this breath of fresh air... S+F

Some common sense brought to an argument that is often filled with the over-emotional ranting’s of angry boss-eyed bigots



So because I chose to respect the victims I'm a bigot?

Over emotional, you aren't an American are you? Nor me, but trust me, if someone bombed the heart out of whatever city you're from, then less than a decade later a centre devoted to the religion of the bombers was planne3d, lets see how "over-emotional" you'd be!!





[edit on 30-8-2010 by kiwifoot]
Kiwifoot, their religion did not bomb the WTC. The Muslims who would visit the centre did not bomb the WTC. The WTC was bombed by brainwashed extremists with a skewed, twisted view of their religion and have exactly nothing to do with this new project in New York.

Let me just say that again. This cultural centre is completely unconnected with the events of 9/11. Now if there were plans to build an al-Quada terrorist training centre at Ground Zero, your anger would be justified. However, that's not the case.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 05:04 AM
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reply to post by xXxSpaceGhostxXx
 


When has the US ever been tolerant about the KKK, the Black Panthers, and other organizations.? The real point is that Osama bin Laden wins big time when that mosque whether it is intended for religious purposes or simply community purposes is built, and most sensible Americans and other people from other nations like England and others who recognize that it was a World Trade Center realize that fact.

It is a bit odd that everyone rallied round the president, the mayor, and the community of NYC raising money etc. to help the victims but ten years later suddenly everyone has to be tolerant and respectful about a blatant attempt to remind people that Muslims also suffered from the attacks on the Center.

Yeah, if you think for one minute that Osama bin Laden, the Taliban, and the other Muslims who are anti American don't win with this proposition, you are really and truly living in fantasy land. The war is still ongoing in Afghanistan, and it is obvious that the Islam world is as antiAmerican freedom as any group on the planet...

Are you all just plainly nuts? Michael Bloomberg is a sorry nutcase, but then who isn't who tries to be a big shot in NYC.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 05:16 AM
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Originally posted by Nikolam
Cracked.com (of all places) had a decent article about the mosque debate entitled "Three Reasons the Ground Zero Mosque Debate Makes No Sense," which you can find here: cracked article

One of the points (#2) the author makes is that with the place actually being a community center, it is not actually a mosque...


A mosque by definition is a purely religious structure. This is a large proposed community center, open to the public and set to house, among other things, a basketball court. Yes there will be a prayer space inside it as well, but you don’t call St. Mary’s Hospital a church because it happens to have a chapel inside it...


I thought his idea about not calling a hospital a church even though it has a chapel inside was a great point that I have not heard the talking heads mention.

Like I said, it is a decent article, very short...check it out if you want.


I love cracked.com! ;-) However this one is pretty moot point... and denotes the author lack of familiarity with mosque activities. It's quite normal for mosque to offer more than just praying room. Look at the list of a known Dutch mosque in Amsterdam:
- Mosque
- Book Shop
- Library
- Monthly El Tawheed mag
- Lectures
- Weddings
- Arabic Lessons
- Sport
- Community Work
- Information Sessions
- Tailor-made Courses
- Theology Lessons
- Translations Services

www.eltawheed.nl...

[edit on 31-8-2010 by loOranks]



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 05:31 AM
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reply to post by InterestedUK
 


I'd be interested in understanding, from your perspective, how the 9/11 terrorists 'skewed' their teachings of Peace.
And if you're at it, also maybe explain me why so many groups through-out the world share the same misunderstanding of their peaceful teachings?



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 05:35 AM
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Between the conquest of Cordoba and the groundbreaking for the mosque there are 300 years. Thats longer than the USA has existed!
Also a guy who would later become known as Pope Sylvester II studied in Cordoba.
The victory mosque is now a cathedral, and has been for 800 years.

But don't let the real cordoba come in the way of your much funnier fantasy one.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 05:40 AM
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reply to post by LiteraryOneTwo
 


You must not know much about the US because we are tolerant with these groups. They have parades and also hold rallies.



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