Collateral Friendship!

Originally posted by donhuangenaro
pure propaganda... showing respect for soldiers is also glorifying war

let me remind you about the real world of war:

collateral murder

Many believe Iraq is still a bombed out smoldering heap of war torn rubble with running gun battles in the streets.

Baghdad Pre-invasion

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/955a97e850dd.jpg[/atsimg]

Baghdad Post-invasion

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6fc51a654673.jpg[/atsimg]

Baghdad 2009/10

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/871b6ce5781f.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/79ed9f1a57ea.jpg[/atsimg]

Originally posted by Azp420
I just don't think anybody should be able to so easily escape accountability for their actions...

I don't think giving funding to the VA to help vets get care supports the war, as an example of supporting the troops. I just don't think it is black and white. I do agree that is a slippery slope that one should be wary of. Also, potentially there could be a shortage of troops, but at the same time, due to the recession you may have plenty of volunteers.

The crimes you refer to is my issue as well...

I'm interested. Have you got some dirt? Are you going to be whistle blowing?

I can't support my claims with any evidence. But an example of something that bothers me were the reports of embedded journalists being killed because they wanted to report some of the things they saw. The troops were afraid that something that wasn't a warcrime, but heinous in nature, being reported would of been distorted by the media and used as an anti-troops piece.

Another thing that bothered me deeply was how expendable lives were. I lost a friend because his usefulness ran out. He was an Iranian who's work in the Green Revolution was stopped when his identity was released allowing the Ayatollah to put him and his entire family to death.

This is why wikileaks is a good thing, IMO.

I agree...

They've researched as much as America expected them to... Here is where we agree there we have serious sociological problems in this nation. One should know better, but if not educated to find answers themselves, what can you really expect?

I don't mean to make excuses for anyone, I mean to point out that a lot of the issues stem from other deeper lying causes.

The concept of revolution is fascinating...

Alright, lets start with tech. We have the greatest military tech in the entire world, best to my knowledge. Yet, a bunch of goat herders with weapons manufactured in the 70-80s and some guys living in mountainous villages who manufacture their own arms (saw a blind tongueless guy in Afghanistan putting pistols together for crying out loud) are able to hold us off for what? 9 years now? It isn't the tech, IMO, it's the tactics, dedication, and culture.

Guerrilla warfare tactics use the large robust nature of armies against itself. At the same time, turning what the large force uses as advantages to disadvantages. For instance, uniforms are used so that we don't shoot our own guys. Since the guerrillas command structure is decentralized they have no need for them as they only work with those they know. While at a number disadvantage they have the psychological advantage and that is what enables them to hold on.

As for a stateside revolutionary group, the federal government lacks the logistics and the numbers to control all of America. The American people won't be coerced at the barrel of a gun, IMO. From what I understand the most the feds could hope to control is the east coast metropolitan areas and that is best case scenario. Judging by the actions of James Lee, it would appear to be much easier than what we are lead to believe. Of course, I am not calling for armed revolt, at least not until all peaceful alternatives have been exhausted.

I also wouldn't discount support from military members. While anecdotal, I know myself and many others I served with would happily keep our oaths. Hell, Officers in my command structure were honestly worried that, due to another terrorist attack, Bush may attempt to hold office under emergency powers. There was talk of what we would do if that came to pass. When units defect to a cause they take what they got with them. So while initially forces may lack logistical support, it wouldn't stay that way forever.

This is of course assuming it doesn't start from with in the military apparatus itself... Which would be a possibility in our hypothetical scenario.

[edit on 2-9-2010 by AdAbsurdum]

reply to post by AdAbsurdum


although we may disagree about the future of armed conflict , I can still see to reason and alot fo what you have said comes from experience .

Its ex servicemen like yourself who would play a pivotal role in re-educating the world to show that war is certainly not , the paycheck and the qualifcations its cracked up to be !

It really annoys me in the UK especially recruitment ad's on tv , show smiley faced soldiers , navy personnel , being the best , and getting to adventure places and learn things

what it doesnt show is the trauma and horror it can inflict on the individual , their family , and also the rest of the world.

if young men and women , knew they were likely to come back from a war theatre and develop PTSD or any other disorder assocaiated with combat , and they were aware it would effect them severly for the rest of their lives then , would they still be so eager to sign up ?

In your case , your the best person to advise these people.

In your opinion , what is the benefit from being in the services , when weighed up against the obvious downfalls .

In my opinion with regards to your recent post , a guerilla army will always beat a far more advanced army , because of the type of war they are made to fight , history shows us great examples of this .

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by donhuangenaro
pure propaganda... showing respect for soldiers is also glorifying war

let me remind you about the real world of war:

collateral murder

Many believe Iraq is still a bombed out smoldering heap of war torn rubble with running gun battles in the streets.

Baghdad Pre-invasion

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/955a97e850dd.jpg[/atsimg]

Baghdad Post-invasion

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6fc51a654673.jpg[/atsimg]

Baghdad 2009/10

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/871b6ce5781f.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/79ed9f1a57ea.jpg[/atsimg]

Yeah, you're right, that's nowadays Iraq: you just forgot to mention who rebuilt all that. Need a hand?

Originally posted by sapien82
In your opinion , what is the benefit from being in the services , when weighed up against the obvious downfalls.

Thank you for your kind words.

To answer your question.... There truly isn't any benefit. The cost is too high. I have a biased opinion though...

In my opinion with regards to your recent post , a guerilla army will always beat a far more advanced army , because of the type of war they are made to fight , history shows us great examples of this .

Beat the larger army in the sense you never allow it to take hold, most definitely. It's a mind set, an Ideology, it's Taliban. That's why we can't accomplish anything over there. You can not kill an Ideology with bullets and they'll wait you out. Those people know invading nations will eventually leave broken. They have what they do down to a science and have been practicing it in some villages for generations.

I can see zero reason why any human being would want to go fight that.

Originally posted by Faustian Spirit

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Originally posted by donhuangenaro
pure propaganda... showing respect for soldiers is also glorifying war

let me remind you about the real world of war:

collateral murder

Many believe Iraq is still a bombed out smoldering heap of war torn rubble with running gun battles in the streets.

Baghdad Pre-invasion

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/955a97e850dd.jpg[/atsimg]

Baghdad Post-invasion

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/6fc51a654673.jpg[/atsimg]

Baghdad 2009/10

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/871b6ce5781f.jpg[/atsimg]
[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/79ed9f1a57ea.jpg[/atsimg]

Yeah, you're right, that's nowadays Iraq: you just forgot to mention who rebuilt all that. Need a hand?

Americans did not rebuild that street or even clean up the mess they made. Anyone who enlists in the US military today is either a fool, poor or delusional. Show me one soldier that is not.

Originally posted by earthdude
Americans did not rebuild that street or even clean up the mess they made.

Really? Sure about that?

Originally posted by earthdude
Anyone who enlists in the US military today is either a fool, poor or delusional. Show me one soldier that is not.

How would you know? Ever associate with anyone in the military? Or, once again, you're just one of the foolish ATS posters that believe the hype about people in the military?

Guess what, Gus? I wasn't poor when I enlisted, or foolish, or delusional.

Take some time and visit your local military base. Go to a recruiting office and talk to the men there. Chances are, all probably have combat experience and will give you first hand feedback on what's going on there, and some BS from a lame website.

But how come I seriously doubt you'll make the effort.

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by earthdude
Americans did not rebuild that street or even clean up the mess they made.

Really? Sure about that?

Originally posted by earthdude
Anyone who enlists in the US military today is either a fool, poor or delusional. Show me one soldier that is not.

How would you know? Ever associate with anyone in the military? Or, once again, you're just one of the foolish ATS posters that believe the hype about people in the military?

Guess what, Gus? I wasn't poor when I enlisted, or foolish, or delusional.

Take some time and visit your local military base. Go to a recruiting office and talk to the men there. Chances are, all probably have combat experience and will give you first hand feedback on what's going on there, and some BS from a lame website.

But how come I seriously doubt you'll make the effort.

Show me that soldier. I am surrounded by 40,000 of them. Most of them have been deluded by lies put forth by our government. The truth is out now. I forgot to mention the bloodthirsty ones.

Originally posted by earthdude
Show me that soldier. I am surrounded by 40,000 of them. Most of them have been deluded by lies put forth by our government. The truth is out now. I forgot to mention the bloodthirsty ones.

Blacks are lazy. Deal drugs. Play great basketball.
Asians can't drive, like cameras.
Latinos are loud, lazy, probably illegally in the country.
Germans are all Nazis.
Russians are drunks.
Anyone in the military is stupid. Poor. Bloodthirsty. Living in some shotgun shack or an apartment over a strip bar, his wife barely out of her teens and knocked up.

Seeing a pattern here? If you're going to believe the stereotypes, believe them all. Makes it easier for you.

reply to post by AdAbsurdum

I don't think giving funding to the VA to help vets get care supports the war, as an example of supporting the troops.

Good call.

I can't support my claims with any evidence. But an example of something that bothers me were the reports of embedded journalists being killed because they wanted to report some of the things they saw. The troops were afraid that something that wasn't a warcrime, but heinous in nature, being reported would of been distorted by the media and used as an anti-troops piece.

Another thing that bothered me deeply was how expendable lives were. I lost a friend because his usefulness ran out. He was an Iranian who's work in the Green Revolution was stopped when his identity was released allowing the Ayatollah to put him and his entire family to death.

Thanks for sharing.

They've researched as much as America expected them to... Here is where we agree there we have serious sociological problems in this nation.

Yeah, but I'm taking it one step further and suggesting this sociological problem would be somewhat reduced if instead of unconditionally supporting the troops, the public only supported the troops fighting honorable wars. This would encourage a lot of troops to do a bit of research and find out if they really support what they are going to fight and possibly kill for.

Guerrilla warfare tactics use...

Very insightful, but although they are holding them off, the guerrillas are being killed at a much higher rate. Engaging the US military is almost suicide. Things would have to get pretty bad before people were prepared to do that.

As for a stateside revolutionary group, the federal government lacks the logistics and the numbers to control all of America. The American people won't be coerced at the barrel of a gun, IMO. From what I understand the most the feds could hope to control is the east coast metropolitan areas and that is best case scenario.

Unless things got really bad, most of the public and police etc would just consider these guys as terrorists and go about their obedience of the government. I suppose the first step would be to gain control of the media?

I also wouldn't discount support from military members.

Would they really be prepared to shoot at their own kind? I know most are intensely loyal to fellow troops.



[edit on 2-9-2010 by Azp420]

Originally posted by Azp420
Yeah, but I'm taking it one step further...

Unconditionally being the operative word here, I think I am beginning to understand what you are getting at...

I would agree that just claiming every service-member is awesome is a bad thing. I guess I would have to initially blame partisan politics. With conservatives thinking military members are crusaders-of-justice and liberals thinking they're bloodthirsty baby killers, if you'll excuse my generalizations for the sake of argument, reaching across the aisle and attempting to broach the issue with reason seems unlikely.

I would imagine we'd actually have to have discourse as a nation instead of the crap-flinging we normally get from either side in order to make head way on this issue. It's why I brought up the VA thing. I understand you are moderate in your position but it is easy for your language, and mine for that matter, to be co-opted and used as something else entirely to make you and I look insane. I think we'd have to tackle the partisan issue first.

Very insightful...

There are things worse than death, IMO. Also, I would like to add, the entire northern region of Afghanistan is impossible for us to take. Taliban have that area on lock, for us to go in there would be suicide.

So while we'd have a terrible body count, the idea behind dying for what you believe in is something that I think most civilians lack. I don't mean to say you should believe like me, but that the lack of that ideology doesn't aid one in understanding why we, as service-members, do what we do.

Unless things got really bad...

I think it depends. Stack? Terrorist. Lee? Terrorist. Organized groups of locals demanding the return of a constitutional republic following widespread abuses? I am not too sure.

I agree that there will be plenty that would think they are honoring their nation by serving the federal apparatus. In my experience; however, police are American's as well and wouldn't take too kindly to losing their rights either.

I agree that the key would be control of the media. A revolutionary army would require a great PR campaign. Look at Sub-Commander Marcos of the EZLN. He's gone head to head with the Mexican Government and seized the state of Chiapas. The only reason he has been able to maintain so long is because of his media blitz. He is considered a celebrity in much of the Spanish speaking world, something Che Guevarra and Fidel Castro ever dreamed possible.

Another key component would be the hearts of the local community members. In order to sustain against something as large as the Federal Government it would require the courting of the local people. The ability to move quickly and spread out logistically would be a necessity. With out their support there could be no sustainable action. I guess this does lead back to controlling the media, but 'media' could be a lot of things... You imagining seizing TV news studios like they did in Manila a few years ago?

Would they really be prepared to shoot at their own kind? I know most are intensely loyal to fellow troops.

Well, we have to look at what 'their own kind' means. In my mind and the minds of those I served with 'my kind' were people who wished to live according to the constitution. As far as I am concerned, when you decide to work against that you have become my enemy.

"...all enemies foreign and domestic."
I have to get into some of the psychology of killing here... The reason one is able to do it is because they are an enemy. Dehumanization takes place and it happens here: 'when threatening our way of life, in doing so they are choosing to die.' That sort of thinking is ingrained in us in boot camp. So, while being loyal to other members, it is the American people, first and foremost, who have our loyalty. What that means in practice is that we would have a massive split between Federal Loyalist scum and Constitutional Republic supporters. The action would be gravely detrimental to the Federalist cause and I believe the opposition would have a more than a fair shot at succeeding.

reply to post by earthdude

Americans did not rebuild that street or even clean up the mess they made. Anyone who enlists in the US military today is either a fool, poor or delusional. Show me one soldier that is not.

That is the most stupid comment I have come across on the website! Here are the numbers of soldiers serving in the United States Armed Forces:

Army 507,158, Navy 347,693 Air Force 347,352, Marines Corp 179,762 Total DOD 1,381,965

Total Armed Forces 1,422,967

Reserves 1,000,000 Paramilitary 53,000

Total for US Military 2,475,967

www.defense.gov...
wiki.answers.com...

And I could bet you almost 90% of them have more brain cells than what you have just displayed!

reply to post by earthdude

Americans did not rebuild that street or even clean up the mess they made. Anyone who enlists in the US military today is either a fool, poor or delusional. Show me one soldier that is not.

And for your information, the United States allocated $53 Billion to the rebuild of Iraq!

In its largest reconstruction effort since the Marshall Plan, the United States government has spent $53 billion for relief and reconstruction in Iraq since the 2003 invasion, building tens of thousands of hospitals, water treatment plants, electricity substations, schools and bridges.

www.huffingtonpost.com...

Originally posted by jerico65

Originally posted by earthdude
Show me that soldier. I am surrounded by 40,000 of them. Most of them have been deluded by lies put forth by our government. The truth is out now. I forgot to mention the bloodthirsty ones.

Blacks are lazy. Deal drugs. Play great basketball.
Asians can't drive, like cameras.
Latinos are loud, lazy, probably illegally in the country.
Germans are all Nazis.
Russians are drunks.
Anyone in the military is stupid. Poor. Bloodthirsty. Living in some shotgun shack or an apartment over a strip bar, his wife barely out of her teens and knocked up.

Seeing a pattern here? If you're going to believe the stereotypes, believe them all. Makes it easier for you.

I don't use stereotypes with soldiers. I still think they all fall into the four categories I mentioned. I would like to see an exception to this. Show me one.