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Collateral Friendship!

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posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 02:29 PM
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Originally posted by Rockstar02
reply to post by Alpha_Blue
 


How the hell do you know what someone signs up for? You sound absolutely ridiculous making statements like that. As if you can see into people's minds and brains and understand their reasoning. Speaking of being naive, what would make you think that people who join the army are going to "serve dirty gov't as a cannon fodder"? Do you think that people are trying to adhere to or add to a "dirty gov't"? Wow...

In case you haven't noticed, people in the armed services are doctors, and firemen, and police and many other professions. I have an idea, why don't you try to join the Baghdad fire dept? Or maybe you'd like to get a job at a hospital in Afghanistan. Good luck with that one...

Furthermore, if you think being a solider implies "just shooting people in the head", then I've completely wasted my time writing this, as you are completely clueless in general. FYI, there are a few more MOS's than simply "infantry".

You really need to look into facts or just general knowledge before spewing out your personal hatred with totally wrong information.


You got trolled HARD without even me trying to troll you . It looks like you didin't understand 80 % of my post, and your response is largly fueled by EMOTION and not reason . It's funny how my post wasn't personal at all beyond the first sentence and your whole post is just lame personal attacks on me . I agree on the part about you wasting time - maybe edit your post tommorow when your cool and write it again using some brainpower, because right now it's not worth responding too seriously and is full of logical flaws .

Just one example : I say people join military motivated by so called patriotism ( ,,serving own country" ) and suggest they end up serving dirty government ( fact ) without even knowing it . And you say I claim soldiers consciously join army to serv dirty gov ? :/ ..... The whole problem is most soldiers are brainwashed and ignorant of their superiors true agenda ....


Of course your post is ended by lazy accusation I'm hating ... what a suprise


Go read my post 10 times, and when maybe you understand we can have some logical debate .

My gut feeling is that your female, if you are forget I even responded too you .

Ps. I like your signature, TV free for 3 years




posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 02:41 PM
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When I read through a thread like this it always makes me think about Saddam, his Son's and the mass graves they filled with hundreds of thousands of their own citizens. I wonder how many more they would have slaughtered over the last decade. Likely far more than have been killed in the war.

I also think about the fact that most of the dead in Iraq died at the hands of other Iraqi's and those who came from Iran.

It makes me wonder how people can play the holier than though card, when they were willing to turn a blind eye towards Saddam and his Sons and do nothing about it. The world just sat back and watched as Saddam and his Son's gassed the Kurds and lined people up in front of trenches or tortured them to death.

It makes me wonder how you have forgotten that Saddam invaded a sovereign nation to steal their oil, slaughtered people and tortured them and planned fully on invading Saudi Arabia next. Remember that? Apparently many of you are pretending none of that happened. The innocent little Sheep, Saddam. Do you mourn him and does your heart bleed for him? Do you applaud his troops for using women and children as human shields while hiding in Mosques and Schools also?

Apparently many of you are only for peace and security for yourselves. You claim to care about the innocent people caught up in this, but you clearly don't. In fact you willingly spread propaganda for those who enslave them. You say nothing when men like Saddam slaughter them. You say nothing when Extremists blow up their fellow Muslims. That is just OK with you.

If a Cop gives you a ticket for vandalizing innocent peoples property at a so called Peace Rally you want their heads. If a man like Saddam gasses his own citizens that is OK with you. None of your business. You turn your head and look the other way.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 02:45 PM
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I understand what you were trying to do here OP, but...

I'm not sure if it is at all possible for a civilian to understand military members. At least not the civilians who's only act of demonstration against the war they hate so much is a couple posts on ATS and potentially a sign waving ceremony some call a protest.

Having never actually done anything close to putting their lives on the line for what they believe in, I don't think it is possible for them to ever understand me and other members who have.

You are talking about two different worlds. Look at the replies you got about how soldiers should just refuse deployments because the war is unjust and so it isn't treason. We all know the court-martial will think differently, but it doesn't matter, so much better for us to sacrifice instead of that poster actually doing something about their voice being drowned out by the saber rattling.

To who may be reading this post; this is why the war is ongoing:

You do nothing to stop it.

No amount of ATS posts, debate, sign waving, and 'baby-killer' screaming is going to stop it. No amount of loving the CEOs, Senators, and Congress people will stop it. No amount of righteous indignation, piousness, and moral superiority will stop it.

Only direct action will accomplish what you want. Is anyone truly willing to see where that path takes them or is their outrage merely a hobby?



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 02:45 PM
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reply to post by NeutronAvenger
 


Thank you so much for putting up this thread, I normally stay away from this topic as I cannot handle it. God Bless our troops.


S&F



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 03:26 PM
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reply to post by Blaine91555
 

Who on earth gave that murderous villan the means to gas the Kurds? AH, yes, That was us when he was our friend.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 03:34 PM
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reply to post by NeutronAvenger
 



It makes me even more sad that a majority of our members think that treason is more heroic than the men and woman in uniform putting their lives at risk.



Who are you calling Treasonous?

you are obviously living in a dream world if you think Iraq or Afghanistan had anything to do with what started this war.

the FBI isn't even looking for Usama Bin Laden for the September 11th, 2001 attacks upon USA, inc.

The only thing this generation is putting there lives at risk for is a college education...

and that's a completely different topic as to the State of the Union when its that bad ..

To not speak up would shame my families heroic service to this country...

and for you to be so deluded you think the American way should be forced down another countries throat by the most high

tech gun barrel fiat currency can buy,

is truly the sad part...

Deny Ignorance.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 03:39 PM
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reply to post by Alpha_Blue
 


First off, I don't know what you mean by getting "trolled hard".

Second of all, you're being a total hypocrite in saying "lazy accusations" as if you calling me a "female", attacking my emotions or providing no response to anything I said isn't lazy or adding positively to this discussion in anyway.

Your example is simply 1 out of countless possible reasons for a person to join the military. I agree that everyone ends up serving our gov't regardless, however that does not necessarily make them all bad people. Maybe the people out there wantonly killing are brainwashed and unaware of true intentions, but again, not everyone is out there simply to kill.

I do apologize, however, if I came off as rude, however I personally believe that making such a sweeping generalization of every military member is not fair. A very good friend of mine is a Marine medic and he does his job to save lives, not end them.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 04:55 PM
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I agree that the soldiers that are doing the "dirty work" so to speak catch alot of the flack and fustration with the completely unecessary war. This is not fair to them and they truely are the unheard victims of this mindless crap our political suits push on everyone.

The soldiers are down there for what they think are honorable reasons and for the most part act accordingly to those beliefes.

Because there are soldiers playing on swing sets and kissing children does not imply that is what they were SENT there for. We know its not, if that were the case they wouldn't be carrying guns. The soldiers are doing what they feel is the right thing and they are putting an almost unhealthy amount of trust and faith in its government and its political suits.

In the soldiers mind they are down there protecting our freedoms but even they eventually start to catch on and realise its all BS. Yet they are stuck so they try and make the best out of it they can and pictures like your's get taken.

Make no mistake the political suits did NOT send GI-JOE down there solely to take pictures with Iraqi children. They use it as propaghanda and PR but they could care less honestly.

They want power and the US soldier is so dedicated to this country they are the perfect tool to use to further the corporate american agenda.

Which by the way has abso-freaking-lutely NOTHING to do with the lifestyles of 90% of the american people.

It's truely sad the people that are willing to defend this country with thier lives are being taken advantage of.

I can state here I know the intention of the political suits because they are the pushers behind all the conflict, they LIED to get us in Iraq, most all of us are aware of this and still that is not enough to label them liars?

You see everyday the corporate influence in the media giving you news to sway your views. Yet its so difficult for many to actually take that step and not trust ANY of them.

When the rich wage war, the poor die.

The beef is not with the American warrior. The beef is with the whole freaking bass ackwards american system taken hostage by scum of earth a-holes....and unfortunately yes soldiers get caught in the cross-fire somtimes.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 04:55 PM
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reply to post by AdAbsurdum
 


Direct action ! , are you suggesting using armed force to overthrow the government to remove them from office and install a new government one which doesnt hold aggressive imperialistic global domination as its main foreign policy?

If so I think that may well be on the cards for america soon, since the government the US has right now are only seeking to remove US citizens rights , and only futher diminish the people lives to the point of ultimate control of the populace.
It certainly seems as though the government are doing everything in their power to do the exact opposite of why it was created in the first place.

Along with CIA docs that basically entail having rights creates terrorism , making the average joe think its better to be safe than have more freedom, safe from terror, safe from the unknown , unseen enemy.

Slipping further and further into a police state, I really hope there are true patriots left who wish to maintain the real american values.

maybe for the safety of the entire planet


[edit on 30-8-2010 by sapien82]



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 05:38 PM
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Originally posted by sapien82
Direct action ! , are you suggesting using armed force to overthrow the government to remove them from office and install a new government one which doesnt hold aggressive imperialistic global domination as its main foreign policy?


When the State refuses to acknowledge the will of the people, and that will having been stated clearly and directly to the State, and all peaceful avenues having been exhausted, what other choice is left?

This is the reason why I don't think anyone does anything about the war or any of the other atrocities they see. They know, deep down, that it will lead to a fight and I don't think they want to give up what they do have for what they believe in.


If so I think that may well be on the cards for america soon, since the government the US has right now are only seeking to remove US citizens rights , and only futher diminish the people lives to the point of ultimate control of the populace.
It certainly seems as though the government are doing everything in their power to do the exact opposite of why it was created in the first place.


Possibly. Assuming the State does decide to curtail your liberties (to a fascist extreme), do you see any other solution than what I purposed? It may not come to that, but I have yet to see anyone follow that road to where it leads.


Along with CIA docs that basically entail having rights creates terrorism , making the average joe think its better to be safe than have more freedom, safe from terror, safe from the unknown , unseen enemy.

Slipping further and further into a police state, I really hope there are true patriots left who wish to maintain the real american values.

maybe for the safety of the entire planet


So this would mean that intelligence agencies know damn well that the US Government can not continue in it's abuses with out some fall out. If this is true, not saying it's not, then the State is already posturing for the backlash and are already working to control it.

I believe if things begin to happen the MSM will cry domestic terrorism, people will attempt to distance themselves as far as possible from freedom fighters and their supporting ideologies, etc. and we will fall into fascism faster than I can imagine.

This division will destroy this nation and, ironically, we will be left to deal with the very forces we instated to plunder 3rd world nations to create this empire. That is, IMO, the largest issue. In an attempt to wrest control of this nation from the hands of corporatist politicians, we possibly play directly into their hands.

If any fight is picked, it won't end for a long long time. The political powers wouldn't just have to be removed, the entire globalist system would have to be dismantled in order to protect our liberties.

This is why dancing around in the streets, provoking the state to violence, and then writing about how you are a political prisoner the weekend you spend in jail before you are set free with the charges dropped is the only action that's taken.

It's masturbatory and perfectly safe.



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 06:07 PM
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Originally posted by NeutronAvenger
reply to post by star child
 



Since when has telling the truth been an act of treason?


Well...



Treason

1. (n.) The offense of attempting to overthrow the government of the state to which the offender owes allegiance, or of betraying the state into the hands of a foreign power; disloyalty; treachery.

2. (n.) Loosely, the betrayal of any trust or confidence; treachery; perfidy.

thinkexist.com...


Obviously the later. He was trusted by his country, his government and he betrayed that trust. Therefor that is considered treason.


It is our duty as Americans to overthrow the government when it does not represent us. Its in the constitution that you took and oath on.


From the Declaration of Independence. Not only do you have the right to overthrow your government, it is a responsibility placed on us by a founding fathers. If our goverment betrays us, acts other then in accordance to our wishes or we feel changes need to be made it is our obligation to do so.

Selected quotes by Jefferson about 'rebellion':

* "What country can preserve its liberties if its rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them." --Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787. ME 6:373, Papers 12:356
* "The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then. It is like a storm in the atmosphere." --Thomas Jefferson to Abigail Adams, 1787.
* "Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., securing inherent and inalienable rights, with powers derived from the consent of the governed], it is the right of the people to alter or abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles, and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:315
* "We think experience has proved it safer for the mass of individuals composing the society to reserve to themselves personally the exercise of all rightful powers to which they are competent and to delegate those to which they are not competent to deputies named and removable for unfaithful conduct by themselves immediately." --Thomas Jefferson to Pierre Samuel Dupont de Nemours, 1816. ME 14:487


Source: wiki.answers.com...

[edit on 30-8-2010 by LoneGunMan]



posted on Aug, 30 2010 @ 07:59 PM
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reply to post by AdAbsurdum
 



I'm not sure if it is at all possible for a civilian to understand military members.


Because we place some sort of value on human life?


Having never actually done anything close to putting their lives on the line for what they believe in, I don't think it is possible for them to ever understand me and other members who have.


Not everybody believes in enforcing their way of life or instilling their beliefs in others through violence. Some of the population is higher evolved than that. I expect you to view this as cowardice but I was never hoping for you to understand.


Look at the replies you got about how soldiers should just refuse deployments because the war is unjust and so it isn't treason. We all know the court-martial will think differently


Boo-hoo, I don't want a dishonorable discharge so I'll go and take part in an illegal war and kill some people instead. I thought people in the military were supposed to be brave? I also regret that I did absolutely no research before signing up and was so easily conned by the charismatic recruitment officer.


To who may be reading this post; this is why the war is ongoing:

You do nothing to stop it.


It's not up to the citizens to stop it (as if they could). It's up to those who are voluntarily taking part.



[edit on 30-8-2010 by Azp420]



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 12:12 AM
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reply to post by NeutronAvenger
 

Great thread, glad to see the flip side of the coin for a change. Its tiring and sad when people really think all military men and women are just blood thirsty maniacs:

www.youtube.com...

edit for spelling.

[edit on 31-8-2010 by wl653]



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 03:51 AM
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Originally posted by Azp420


Because we place some sort of value on human life?


No, I stated why.


Not everybody believes in enforcing their way of life or instilling their beliefs in others through violence. Some of the population is higher evolved than that. I expect you to view this as cowardice but I was never hoping for you to understand.


Implying that is what i meant... You are sorely mistaken. Also, I do not view your disdain for that belief system as cowardice and I don't understand why you would think I would think you a coward for that reason...


Boo-hoo, I don't want a dishonorable discharge so I'll go and take part in an illegal war and kill some people instead. I thought people in the military were supposed to be brave? I also regret that I did absolutely no research before signing up and was so easily conned by the charismatic recruitment officer.


First off, it isn't that simple. You are talking about families and children that have no other way to be fed or supported with out that pay check. It is mainly the poor that make up our Armed Forces. You also don't know if they won't end up in prison, instead.

Second off, I see a person bearing a Nation's sins to feed his family to be very brave. It takes strength to carry a Nation's secrets, to fight it's wars, to sacrifice for it.

Finally, I find it interesting that you imply that going to war is a cowards way out. As if combat is easy. While there is a certain rhythm to a fire-fight, while there is the eventual nonchalant attitude towards being shelled, finding out you probably aren't going to get gassed after all, etc. Choosing to be shot at to feed your family isn't easy. Making that choice for any reason takes guts.


It's not up to the citizens to stop it (as if they could). It's up to those who are voluntarily taking part.


Thanks for making my point.

Since you think you are already defeated, why do you bother? Is it just therapeutic to whine all the time instead of doing anything? Is it so you can continue to convince yourself that it isn't your problem or your fault and keep passing the buck? I'm genuinely curious here because I think you are just afraid, but I could be wrong.

Playing the blame game on ATS isn't stopping an illegal war or innocent blood from being spilled.



[edit on 31-8-2010 by AdAbsurdum]



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 03:56 AM
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Originally posted by Rockstar02

First off, I don't know what you mean by getting "trolled hard".


Not that hard to find out .


Originally posted by Rockstar02
Second of all, you're being a total hypocrite


Yes total, probably the worst in the world



Originally posted by Rockstar02
in saying "lazy accusations" as if you calling me a "female"


IDK last time I checked being a female is nothing bad, and I didn't ,,call you" anything I just said it's my gut feeling your a female . Why do you insist on spinning everything I say to try make me look bad ?

And let me explain this whole female thing - I got a gut feeling you are a soldiers wife or something, And it would be very hard to have a reasonable discussion with someone like that .Being an emotional creature doesn't help either . You prove my point . Lastly I don't like to bash a lady .


Originally posted by Rockstar02attacking my emotions


Attacking your emotions
What thats suppose to mean ? And how does one attack emotions ? But nevermind it's another spin to make me look like I'm attacking you ( or your emotions
) while all I did is say that your post is EMOTIONAL, and it was, just like this one is
.


Originally posted by Rockstar02
Your example is simply 1 out of countless possible reasons for a person to join the military.


Maybe there are countless, but the one I mentioned are the main ones ... or will you argue with that too
? Let me show you what military itself thinks are the main reasons for joining ... www.military.com...


Originally posted by Rockstar02 I agree that everyone ends up serving our gov't regardless, however that does not necessarily make them all bad people. Maybe the people out there wantonly killing are brainwashed and unaware of true intentions, but again, not everyone is out there simply to kill.


Well I think your really wasting time, because I don't think all soldiers are bloodthirsty murderers just because they are soldiers, so if your trying to convince me your barking at the wrong tree . But I think your just arguing with me because your upset about me calling you ,,naive" .


Originally posted by Rockstar02I do apologize, however, if I came off as rude, however I personally believe that making such a sweeping generalization of every military member is not fair. A very good friend of mine is a Marine medic and he does his job to save lives, not end them.


I knew you had a boyfriend or a friend in military
I have a friend in military myself, he choose it as a career, mainly for the early retirement, I know, how "un-patriotic" but he is too smart for that


And even if your friend ( the medic ) is the most lovely person in the world, he is still a soldier and has to follow orders ... so if he is ordered to shoot he will shoot . If he wants to save lives why not become a normal doctor ? without the marine part ? Get my point ?



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 05:07 AM
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reply to post by NeutronAvenger
 



Honestly, I think the images in this thread are very healthy. I am a war basher all along (not TROOPER basher), and my line of thinking says that war is not necessary unless a country is attacked by another country, and not by a terrorist group of another country, which is what happened with the U.S.
The words you use are derrogatory, since because there is people who doesn't support the war it doesn't mean they don't support HUMAN BEINGS, be them soldiers or civilians. Your thread would be perfect if you left aside the "oh our troopers are fighting for our country" bla bla bla, because honestly theyr are just following orders... immoral ones, for that matter.
But what really shines are the pictures of soldiers playing with children, feeding them, taking pictures and whatnot, which is what your bull# tv stations don't show because it doesn't raise audiences and charts. Very good move, and at least it is refreshing to see the human side of soldiers as also.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 06:29 AM
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Its all very well to call them human , but they have been trained to do inhumane things and will do this at the first order .

So any sense of morales are ignored because they are following orders , orders which deem them cold calculating killers.

In essence soldiers are psychologically damaged individuals whether they or we choose to accept it or not.

Killing another human being , armed combat or unarmed combat I imagine is no easy task. The consequences eventually will take hold of the individuals psyhchological state whether they like it or not. We only have to turn to veterans of past wars to see the results.

So we remain at square one , no amount of protest / riots , or armed revolution will result in removing an army used for nefarious purposes , it would appear that humans are caught in complete deadlock.
Armed conflict will plague humanity until we are wiped from the face of the earth.

There is no solution to our problem



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 06:47 AM
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Originally posted by sapien82
Its all very well to call them human , but they have been trained to do inhumane things and will do this at the first order.


I don't see killing another human as inhumane. Some people have to be killed in order to protect ones self. I also believe that there are things worth dieing for.


So any sense of morales are ignored because they are following orders , orders which deem them cold calculating killers.


I disagree with also. Not the calculating killer part, because I was and still am, but the sense of morals being ignored part.

Those wounds run deep, they may not be visible but they are there. We are still human beings with feelings. We aren't cold even if we have been trained to have enough military bearing to appear so.


In essence soldiers are psychologically damaged individuals whether they or we choose to accept it or not.


This is very true! But, in my experience as some one who suffers from PTSD, the largest contributor to my mental state is the society that I came back to and do not understand.


Killing another human being , armed combat or unarmed combat I imagine is no easy task. The consequences eventually will take hold of the individuals psyhchological state whether they like it or not. We only have to turn to veterans of past wars to see the results.


It isn't so much the act as much as the trauma associated with it. If a loved one thinks me less of a person because of what I have done, that has an impact on my mental health whether I like it or not.


So we remain at square one , no amount of protest / riots , or armed revolution will result in removing an army used for nefarious purposes , it would appear that humans are caught in complete deadlock.
Armed conflict will plague humanity until we are wiped from the face of the earth.

There is no solution to our problem


I don't see conflict as a problem honestly. It is a necessary evil in my mind.

I'm really good at eliminating the enemy. I don't expect an accountant to be. When the oppressor comes I'll do what I do best. But, I'll need a society to fall back on to help me mend the wounds. I believe that this is the way it should work. That rough men stand by willing to do violence on your behalf, so you don't have to.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by AdAbsurdum
When the oppressor comes I'll do what I do best.


The question is:

WHO OPPRESSES YOU? Terrorists, right? Then why all the wrongs regarding civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan? It's too much to be called side casualties. Nope, the oppressor is the one who enters a country that, ITSELF, didn't do nothing and has to bear with you. I mean, I wonder why don't the U.S. ever think THEY are the oppressors for a change.



posted on Aug, 31 2010 @ 12:08 PM
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reply to post by AdAbsurdum
 


I understand and appreciate your opinion on society being there for veterans who return from warzones , especially when they have been told to fight in Illegal wars , we should make sure they get the correct level of care and help to brign them to terms with whats happened to them.

However do you not think its time that humanity does away with conflict even if it is a necessary evil. Armed conflict is a barbaric act which should have remained in the medievil ages. Just as humans have evolved and escaped our primal desire to hunt and kill , we should also too abandon our almost primal desire for bloodlust and battle.
A necessary evil isnt a very civilized thing to have now is it ?

It would be humanities next step in evolution , our technology advances us intellectually we should also help it evolve us so that we can do away with conflict. Why scientists dont invent some sort of device ( nanomachines ) to eradicate all nuclear missles and arms and ordnance I do not know

Its about time this happened but no one is willing to take the first step towards disarmament .Even Unilatarel disarmament doesnt work , check out Northern Ireland.

Im still positive that armed conflict will remain with this world until we are gone. Unless some alien species decides to wipe us from this earth , then I think nothing will unite us as a species we are ultimately doomed by our own actions.

Such a shame as well we are such a dynamic species and one which could bring light to the darkness in the deepness of space



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