Revelation; The two witnesses

reply to post by St Udio

If you examine chs 9-11 as a literary structure, what you can see is;

Trumpet (ch9v1)---Army of locusts (ch9 v3)---"The first woe has passed" (ch9 v12)
Trumpet (ch9 v13)---Army of riders (ch9 v 16)---"The second woe has passed "(ch11 v14)

Then, continuing the literary analysis, it becomes evident that the section ch10v1 to ch11 v13 has been inserted into that structure just before that second declaration.

I would equate the army of riders with the second woe because they are such an obvious parallel with the army of locusts, and they are depicted in very great length as something very terrible, as contrasted with the almost casual single-verse reference to an earthquake in which a comparatively small number of people are killed.
One event kills 7000.
The other event kills "a third of mankind".
Which of those two events most deserves to be called a "woe"?

I take it that the "inserted" section is there because ch10 is a sort of "commentary" on events, and ch11 is describing something that is happening at the same time- which does, indeed, make it part of the overall experience of the second "woe".
The overall literary structure is a very important guide to the intended meaning.

RE: earlier post... in chapter 9 where your 'reading' concludes that the 2nd woe
is the 200 thousand, thousand man Army (verse 16)




i read the outline waaay differently:
i understand that the 'star' that falls on the Earth, then opens the locust pit
for 5 months of scorpion stings...is actually the Two Witnesses
the 2 witnesses that bring all sorts of torment & plagues to the people that
are not sealed in G0d... IOW those that have the 'mark-of-the-beast'


read here:

Revelation 9
1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth:
and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

2 [...]

3And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth:
and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.

4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth,
neither any green thing, neither any tree;
but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads[...]

what's going on is: the 2 witnesses ('star' from heaven on to the Earth)
& the 144,000 are 'sealed' and afterward the 3 woes start...
the 2 witnesses use the locusts & demons from the pit also the Abaddon/Apollyon
and the Earthly armies of men as the agencies to inflict suffering on humanity...

the locust/scorpion plague that last 5 months, the droughts and other plagues & wars
that the 2 witnesses inflict on the followers of the 'Beast'
is why the world rejoices at their being killed.
In fact...the beast empire under the leadership by the False Prophet, is actually
devouring itself and is having its own resources turned against itself,
by the 2 witnesses,

Originally posted by St Udio

here are the verses (REV Chapter 11) pertaining to the two-witnesses, their mission/propheci/ their death...
then the earthquake that decimates the 'city' where they were killed...

the complete package is referred to as the 2nd Woe ---read for yourself...
the 2nd Woe is about the 2 witnesses mission/ministry & the earthquake that follows
...not near what you are saying about a massive Army or whatever....

11And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them,
and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither.
And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

13And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell,
and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant
were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14 The second woe is past; and, behold, =the third woe cometh quickly.

The number 7 is a mystical number referring to the 7 chakras, or the Seven Churches of the Revelation of John.

The number 3 1/2 is half of seven, which, also, has a mystical/esoteric significance having to do with the receiving of this Vision.

"ascended to heaven in a cloud" is a description of the Vision of the "Son of man" (see the relevant passages in the Book of Daniel).

"the tenth part of the city fell" is a reference to both the Ten Sephirot of the "Tree of Life" (and the "ten horns" of the Book of Daniel) which is also a symbol for the Vision of the "Son of man". (These can also be understood as referring to the ten principal phonetic tones which are distributed among the Seven Churches of the Revelation of John in a geometry similar, but not identical, to the geometry of the Ten Sephirot of the "Tree of Life".)

The "great earthquake" is also a very specific element of the Vision of the "Son of man"; the term "seven thousand" also being a combination of mystical numbers.

The "third woe" refers to the manifestation of these Truths in the space-time reality.

Michael Cecil

The discussion so far on the Seven Trumpets is not in any way meaningful or even relevant to the Knowledge conveyed by the Revelation of John.

The Seven Trumpets are, esoterically, the seven emotions experienced at the Seven Churches, in sequence: desire, anxiety, fear, envy, sorrow, indignation, rage.

Thus, the Fifth Trumpet is a description of the fifth emotion at the Fifth Church, which is the throat chakra, which is where sorrow is experienced.

In the song Circle Game, even Joni Mitchell understood this: "fearful when the sky was full of thunder (Revelations 10:3) and tearful at the falling of a star." (Revelations 9:1)

"the painted ponies"--that is, the white, the red, the black and the sickly green horses of the Revelation of John--"go up and down". These refer to the different dimensions of consciousness and their activities in the space-time reality.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by St Udio
i understand that the 'star' that falls on the Earth, then opens the locust pit
for 5 months of scorpion stings...is actually the Two Witnesses

How does this relate to the comment made in one of your previous posts?

(nor do they suddenly "poof" onto the world scene from a heavenly dimension)

Are you coming round to my viewpoint that some of the features of Revelation are to be understood symbolically?

the 2 witnesses use the locusts & demons from the pit also the Abaddon/Apollyon
and the Earthly armies of men as the agencies to inflict suffering on humanity...

But this is different from your original suggestion that the witnesses constitute the second woe.
You are now suggesting that the witnesses are responsible for both woes, viz the locusts and the earthly armies..
This thought is perfectly compatible with my own line, that the locusts and armies respectively are the two woes themselves.

Originally posted by clever024
This is a good assumption however I believe you to have over thought it just a little bit.

He tends to overthink some things and underthink other things. Well, that's a fundamentalist for ya.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by St Udio
i understand that the 'star' that falls on the Earth, then opens the locust pit
for 5 months of scorpion stings...is actually the Two Witnesses...

But this is different from your original suggestion that the witnesses constitute the second woe.
You are now suggesting that the witnesses are responsible for both woes, viz the locusts and the earthly armies..
This thought is perfectly compatible with my own line, that the locusts and armies respectively are the two woes themselves.

well well...there's some of the 'mystery' of how G0d & prophecy/apocalypse/revelation works...

the two witnesses are two human beings, born and alive in the natural sense...

but just as John the Baptist and Jesus bar Joseph became trancendental beings... so too do the 2 witnesses..
(this is when the 'star' comes to Earth & opens the pit/abyss...they 'change', wear sackcloth, begin their prophecies and plagues against the beast empire & the leader of that empire the 'false prophet'
[some theorize that Satan is the 'star'] ~but why would Satan persecute his followers...?

the one's without the mark-of-god. are the people targeted by the 'star' (2 witnesses) as they begin their 1260
day mission to punish the beast empire and followers.


When i earlier said they (2 witnesses') did not just poof into existance, that reasoning is still being said...
i have not changed my mind, i just further explain the position i hold.


the mission of the two witnesses is the second woe, the locusts/the wars/armies are only elements of their 1,260 day mission or 2nd Woe.

i sorta think the 3rd Woe are the final plagues that come after the bpoowls & vials of wrath,
there will not be any rapture to spare the elect from whats to come


thanks

Originally posted by St Udio
the mission of the two witnesses is the second woe, the locusts/the wars/armies are only elements of their 1,260 day mission or 2nd Woe.

i sorta think the 3rd Woe are the final plagues that come after the bpoowls & vials of wrath,
there will not be any rapture to spare the elect from whats to come

I think we agree on the third woe.
But what have you done with the first woe?
Under the formulation given above, the first woe disappears.
Read again ch9 vv1-12. What have you got against the statement that the locusts are the first woe?

The WOES deserve a thread of their own don't they.

The first 4 trumpets sound and then an angel says, woe, woe, woe to the earth and the sea for the remaining 3 trumpets.

the 1st woe is the 5th trumpet, the bottomless pit and the locusts
the 2nd woe is the 6th trumpet, the 4 angels bound in euphrates and the army of 200 000 000
the 3rd woe is the 7th trumpet

imo the 2nd woe is almost finished and those who had ears to hear have not heard.
it will end when the witnesses finish prophesying with a great earthquake, when the tenth part of the city falls which are the 10 toes, the divided kingdoms of babylon.

the 7th trumpet is soon upon us


Rev 14:8And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

9And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

10The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:


The 7th woe is during the great tribulation.

Originally posted by DISRAELII think we agree on the third woe.
But what have you done with the first woe?
Under the formulation given above, the first woe disappears.
Read again ch9 vv1-12. What have you got against the statement that the locusts are the first woe?

I really don't have the time to go through each and every one of the at least hundreds of mistakes you have made in your interpretation of the Revelation of John from the perspective of the "beast of the earth" consciousness of the 'thinker'.

There is a much more serious problem involved here; namely, that the lack of Knowledge about the Revelation of John, and the censorship by the Christian religious 'authorities' of this Knowledge is going to soon result in the loss of millions upon millions of human lives.

There is, first of all, a very serious difference between the consciousness Created 'by and in the image of God' and the 'fallen' consciousness. These are absolute opposites. The 'fallen' consciousness is not "almost" the consciousness Created by God. Similarly, there is a very serious difference between Revelations and human thoughts: human thoughts are not "almost" Revelations. They are fundamentally opposed to Revelations. [And, in the Revelation of John, Jesus says "Be either cold or hot"--that is, be 100% against the Truth or 100% on the side of the Truth--"but if you are lukewarm (taking a 'middle road' between Revealed Truth and the lies of the 'thinker') I will vomit you out of my mouth."]

Now, the symbols in the Revelation of John are fractal Prophecies; that is, they refer to more than one thing.

Thus, in terms of consciousness, the "beast of the earth" is the consciousness of the 'thinker', the "beast of the sea" is the consciousness of the "self", and the "dragon" symbolizes the 'movement' of self-reflection. And all of these are opposed to the consciousness Created by God. And this 'fallen' consciousness is the source of your interpretations about things of which you have no Knowledge.

But, with regards to the space-time reality, the "dragon" is the media which has censored the Truth about the Revelation of John and the Doctrine of "resurrection"; the "beast of the sea" is the politicians and diplomats of the "peace process" which are ignoring the Revelations and Prophecies; and the "beast of the earth" is the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious establishments which are contradicting these Truths for money...

No differently than you are contradicting these Truths for...what is your motivation here other than to set your thoughts up as somehow being an 'explanation' of the Revelation of John, even though they were concocted by the 'fallen' consciousness?

In any case, my motivation here is to explain the Revelation of John in an attempt to convince the media, the polticians and/or the religious 'authorities' to pay attention to these Truths in an effort to diminish the loss of life in the conflicts between and among Jews, Christians and Muslims.

And I understand your efforts at providing your 'explanation' as determinedly and specifically opposed to my efforts to diminish the loss of life that will result from people following the thoughts of the 'thinker' rather than Revelations.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by iamnot
The WOES deserve a thread of their own don't they.

You'll be pleased to know that they're going to get three. One each.
But my interpretation of the woes is more extreme than yours, because I don't think they've started yet.
In fact I'm not convinced that we've even seen "the four horsemen".
My version of the revelation "clock" seems to run more slowly than everybody else's.

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious establishments which are contradicting these Truths for money...
No differently than you are contradicting these Truths

And I understand your efforts at providing your 'explanation' as determinedly and specifically opposed to my efforts to diminish the loss of life that will result from people following the thoughts of the 'thinker' rather than Revelations.

I can promise you that my systematic efforts to provide an explanation began months before you arrived on ATS- you can check that by looking at the date-stamps in my profile. So the suggestion that they are "specifically" opposed to your own campaign is just plain silly. The world does not revolve around you, and my plans do not revolve around you.
Nor do I get any money out of this, so the implication that I'm "contradicting truths for money" is not much better.

Sorry, I just realized I made an error in my last post saying the 7th woe is the great tribulation.

what i meant was the 3rd woe is the great tribulation which is the 7th trumpet.

I'll be looking forward to those threads too. I'll leave the topic of the woes until then and I'll have to comment on

your horsemen thread to see if I can persuade you to see that they are already here.

reply to post by Michael Cecil


How are you seeing these layers? By what means?

The confusion created in this thread, through many different interpretations, is why I do not go to church. I know God exsists, I know he is the Creator, But because so many have messed with the Bible, changed it, taken out and edited leaving the version of it we have today, it is not the bible. The only true and whole thing about it is knowing there is a God. Unless that book contians everything it is meant to contain, and in the correct order, reading it, and interpreting it, is futile. Who can say they are right or wrong in their interpretation? Either could be right or wrong, or both!

Originally posted by space cadet
The confusion created in this thread, through many different interpretations, is why I do not go to church. I know God exsists, I know he is the Creator, But because so many have messed with the Bible, changed it, taken out and edited leaving the version of it we have today, it is not the bible. The only true and whole thing about it is knowing there is a God. Unless that book contians everything it is meant to contain, and in the correct order, reading it, and interpreting it, is futile. Who can say they are right or wrong in their interpretation? Either could be right or wrong, or both!

That is why there are spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about having the Holy Spirit in us and interpreting the scriptures on our own. The churches have left that part out and people are not aware of just how powerful those gifts really are. One of those gifts opens the Bible up in a whole different way. There is more in those pages than the eyes can see. The Jewish mystics can see this in the Torah, but they are going around the Holy Spirit to see it, ('climbing up some other way') and instead they see it through what they call 'the third eye', which is not given to them through the Holy Spirit, but through a familiar spirit.

When the scripture open up for them in this manner, they are seeing somethig different, lies. This is how false doctrine is created and spread around, such as 'Lucifer was not Satan'. They really see this, and what gives them away also, is that they use this information in a pridefull and arrogant way because they believe everyone else who doesn't see what they see are ignorant. They come at it with arrogance because they see it as their own accomplishment, which is not how this works by the Holy Spirit. What is not realized by them is that some Christians can see this as well, but by the Spirit of God, and only to those who God chooses to reveal it.

Originally posted by Logarock

Originally posted by Greensage

Originally posted by Logarock
reply to post by Greensage

 

I may agree with most of what you say in spirit....but we are talking about two persons....two witnesses....to very real persons. Extending this like you do is really off topic....but nice thoughts.

You missed it then, my entire post is about the two Witnesses; you missed it entirely. If two physical Witnesses are here then we only need to ask ourselves, "how will they present themselves to us?"

No...it wasnt. But at any rate.....we might want to consider that the powers that be are certainly not going to let them have any air time.

It may be for the large part that these guys are known only by the chief powers of the earth but the rest of the world will not know why the rain has stoped and water has turned to blood.

The Gulf Stream has already slowed 5mph due to vast , incoming amounts of freshwater from
melting glaciers [mostly Greenland]. When the cycles complete with all the chemicals added
to water due to Gulf oil spill, it will slow even more.
When the Gulf Stream slows enough that the upwelling does not take place [exchange of
nutrients and microorganisms from deep water to shallow], the current itself shall fail.
Thus, your water turned to blood.

Originally posted by nlouise

Originally posted by space cadet
The confusion created in this thread, through many different interpretations, is why I do not go to church. I know God exsists, I know he is the Creator, But because so many have messed with the Bible, changed it, taken out and edited leaving the version of it we have today, it is not the bible. The only true and whole thing about it is knowing there is a God. Unless that book contians everything it is meant to contain, and in the correct order, reading it, and interpreting it, is futile. Who can say they are right or wrong in their interpretation? Either could be right or wrong, or both!

That is why there are spiritual gifts given by the Holy Spirit. I'm not talking about having the Holy Spirit in us and interpreting the scriptures on our own. The churches have left that part out and people are not aware of just how powerful those gifts really are. One of those gifts opens the Bible up in a whole different way. There is more in those pages than the eyes can see. The Jewish mystics can see this in the Torah, but they are going around the Holy Spirit to see it, ('climbing up some other way') and instead they see it through what they call 'the third eye', which is not given to them through the Holy Spirit, but through a familiar spirit.

When the scripture open up for them in this manner, they are seeing somethig different, lies. This is how false doctrine is created and spread around, such as 'Lucifer was not Satan'. They really see this, and what gives them away also, is that they use this information in a pridefull and arrogant way because they believe everyone else who doesn't see what they see are ignorant. They come at it with arrogance because they see it as their own accomplishment, which is not how this works by the Holy Spirit. What is not realized by them is that some Christians can see this as well, but by the Spirit of God, and only to those who God chooses to reveal it.

Spacecadet: God never said you had to go to church. He says, "forsake not the fellowship of the saints".
He also says, "Where two or more are gathered together in my name, there am I".
You can worship Him at home, with family, in a meadow with your friends, or talk about him in public
with like-minded people. That is church.
Not going to a building where people of alternative lifestyles call themselves priests and pastors. God said
only a man, married to one woman, could be a priest [pastor]. Titus, Timothy, and Ephesians.
This pretty much lets out all divorces.
That is why there is so much confusion; because people who are not qualified by God are trying to act like
they are, and tell you they are called of God, and they are not.
Don't worry: God has given you a present so you can figure it all out for yourself. "But the anointing
which you have recieved from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you;
but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie,
and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him." 1 John 2 :27 Shalom