Revelation; The two witnesses

reply to post by DISRAELI


The Bible says all men shall taste death (as did Jesus). The only two
who did not were Enoch and Elijah. In order for every word of God
to be true, it would have to be Elijah and Enoch sent back to be the
two messengers of Revelation (so that, they too, will taste death).

Originally posted by Nosred
BTW if you're interested I started a collaborative story about the apocalypse, the link's in my sig.

Thank you for mentioning that. I've had a quick glance at the link, and may go back to it later.
My real literary home is history rather than fiction (although at least one poster in this thread might disagree).
I note with interest that we do at least agree on the identity of the Four Horsemen.

reply to post by St Udio

Originally posted by St Udio
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

just how can 2 witnesses bodies lie in the streets --'All over the world '??

The Internet, television.....

[edit on 29-8-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

Opening ATS and seeing your post for the "Two Witnesses" was like a long-awaited pleasure!

I do love that you want to keep yourself within those "metaphor" parameters, but you really should open to the idea of both avenues of thought.

Can you not imagine the Force behind such a thing as described? Two living individuals of our world standing before the Nations which stand on the court of the Temple. Witnessing the Truth before all (and likely televised), the two true Prophets left for Mankind, and then before everyone's eyes taken down with such disregard by order of the AntiChrist who has entered the Temple and declared himself GOD before the Nations of Kings.

Can you not hear the Roar?! Can you not feel the Spirit Rise to such a fervor and Contemptment as such Words of Truth burn through the ears of the Masses?! OMG, it sets my hair a dancing!

Just knowing the capacity for Dramatization that Mankind has risen to, at this point in technology, is mind-blowing! I bet it is the Greatest Show on Earth! If there were ever a way to move the Souls of the World into accepting this GOD-Man, I am sure it will be quite Spectacular.

Crushing the Church via crushing Christians, only to resurrect the Church after 3 days, seems almost too easy to say; people are not that much "cattle" at that point to accept a new Religion just because one is Destroyed, especially given the fact there are so many other Religions present. This implosion resulting into a explosion of all religions merging into one World Religion would require some great Theatrics at best.

I think this is why I view the witnesses as two individuals who will speak the Truth to the World (well the existing World at the time) and are murdered for all to see, executed is putting it mildly. The bodies will lie as a Testament of proving once and for all that they will not resurrect, and that the GOD-Man in the Temple is who he says he is.

Then the Grande Finale! The real kick in the Man-pants! LOL the fact that all of this was elaborately fashioned so that we would accept a New World Order backfires because there really is a Christ and he has arrived from Space! (I can hear the gasps amongst the fallen now).

My guess at this point the Final Battle is Incredible, with only 144,000 plus the 2 resurrected Witnesses the World's Nations fall to their knees. WOW!

I love the literal interpretations! It literally hits ya where it counts.

S&F once again. I love your Work! I love these threads more and more!
I Love that America is "my" Whore of Babylon! I Love that this was never about us, even though we are Saving our Souls too! I love that we will not bare witness to these events, which gives me more reason to love these posts! Thanks again! Bravo!

reply to post by DISRAELI


i addressed the 'kings' & 'priests' in my remark that John the Baptist
could be regarded as the high-priest and Jesus before his morphing into a 'Christ' could be the King (never realized but given the title)


sir, your spinning things, & having a selective cognition & acknowledgement


thanks, but this is just developing into a circular disagreement

reply to post by Freedom of Thought

It could be argued that "appointed to men to die once" (Hebrews ch9 v27) is simply talking about a maximum, ie "not more than once". if you look at the context, the writer is explaining why Christ does not need to die "more than once".

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by St Udio

 

Originally posted by St Udio
reply to post by DISRAELI

 

just how can 2 witnesses bodies lie in the streets --'All over the world '??

The Internet, television.....

[edit on 29-8-2010 by MY2Commoncentsworth]

yes, but the AC/Beast City (babylon) is in one longitude-latitude. the 2 witnesses bodies cannot lay in Cairo, Budapest, Ankara, DC, London, Moskow...all at the same instant


even on TV the media reports that the televised event comes from a certain location, and not diverse sites (DISRAELI's 'all over the world').
this is where my attempted explaination that death camps, [minor cities] consigned to the extermination & disposal of masses of religious folk could be symbolically be grouped together as a 'city' a 'Golgotha'...
and that is not a metaphor state, its more along the lines of grouping
of a death conveyor belt under a single title...like the WWII 'concentration camp' that included all the infamous places as a single entity.


open minds?

reply to post by St Udio


Yes, I agree that the two witnesses are probably 2 distinct individuals, yet I would not rule out considering a broader metaphor that can be used to describe them.

I always keep an open mind when it comes to the Apocalypse, but I have ruled out the possibility of Christ arriving in a spaceship.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by MY2Commoncentsworth

 

Yes, there are various speculative possibilities around Elijah and Enoch and Moses.
But the beauty of my suggestion is that it makes this kind of speculation unncessary. It can be an allegorical interpretation of events which are fairly straightforward in themselves.

Good point however there is enough suggestion throughout the word that these guys are literal very real persons.

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by St Udio

 

Yes, I agree that the two witnesses are probably 2 distinct individuals, yet I would not rule out considering a broader metaphor that can be used to describe them.

I always keep an open mind when it comes to the Apocalypse, but I have ruled out the possibility of Christ arriving in a spaceship.

Just some hints here.....Moses and Elijah were doth on Mt Sinai, did the 40 day thing, and more plus Elijah clearly was taken away from the earth. Moses it says had satan and mike fight over his "body" which may be a hidden way of saying that he to was taken up as Elijah.

reply to post by Logarock

You say Moses and Elijah.
What's your response to those who argue the case for Enoch?

reply to post by Logarock

Originally posted by Logarock
Just some hints here.....Moses and Elijah were doth on Mt Sinai, did the 40 day thing, and more plus Elijah clearly was taken away from the earth. Moses it says had satan and mike fight over his "body" which may be a hidden way of saying that he to was taken up as Elijah.

Yes, Moses went up to Mount Sinai, and Elijah went up to Mount Carmel, but I believe that Elijah's fiery chariot was literally an old style horse drawn interdimentional chariot. But I am open to other possibilities.

However I do believe that Satan was trying to get his hands on the body of Moses because of the miraculous powers that his dead body still possessed. Can you imagine if Satan had been able to get his hands on the dead body of Christ?

Yet the body of Moses could also be a reference to the Israelites themselves.

reply to post by DISRAELI


And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
and death and hell delivered up the dead
which were in them: and they were
judged every man according to their works.

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
This is the second death.

And whosoever was not found written
in the book of life was cast into
the lake of fire.

Revelations 20: 13-15

reply to post by St Udio

Originally posted bu ST Udio
yes, but the AC/Beast City (babylon) is in one longitude-latitude. the 2 witnesses bodies cannot lay in Cairo, Budapest, Ankara, DC, London, Moskow...all at the same instant


even on TV the media reports that the televised event comes from a certain location, and not diverse sites (DISRAELI's 'all over the world').
this is where my attempted explaination that death camps, [minor cities] consigned to the extermination & disposal of masses of religious folk could be symbolically be grouped together as a 'city' a 'Golgotha'...
and that is not a metaphor state, its more along the lines of grouping
of a death conveyor belt under a single title...like the WWII 'concentration camp' that included all the infamous places as a single entity.

open minds?

I like your analogy in reference to the concentration camps being referred to as Golgotha.

And Babylon can indeed be a reference to Jerusalem. As the worlds three great religions can all find their roots in this city, and are literally at each others throats, the conflict will eventually encompass the whole world, the city can indeed be seen as the mother of the harlotry's and the abominations of the Earth.

Perhaps this is why a "New Jerusalem" will come down from the sky in order to replace the old city.

Yet Babylon can also be interpreted to be the decline of moral values in the United States, which have spread around the world and will continue to do so. Perhaps Babylon is a reference to the United States. As a patriotic American, this is not something that I really want to believe. But it is definitely a possibility.

Perhaps Babylon was originally a reference to the seven hills of Rome, and of the demonic power that Rome clearly was seen to have possessed.

Perhaps Babylon is a reference to the great garbage hills on the south side of Chicago.....It is certainly a "great city" that sits on many waters,......the great lakes.

Or perhaps the Babylon of the Apocalypse is the City of the World itself, as was previously mentioned. And I may point out that there will be no geographical escape from Babylon during the days of the Great Tribulation, as all enemies of the Antichrist who have not accepted the mark of the Beast will be hunted down and annihilated.

Open minds?

If anything, I think the dispute Satan and Michael had over the body of Moses was who it belonged to. Satan arguing his case that Moses wasn't saved as his case with everyone.

But on the topic of this thread, great thread btw, once again. I have a lot to say about the 2 witnesses. If it had to be a literal 2 witnesses, one would definitely have to be John the Revelator, as he was told, he must prophecy again.

Also, we tend to overlook Revelation 10 but it is also describing the 2 witnesses. Whereas Revelation 11 explains the events of what can be described happening and being seen on earth, Revelation 10 reveals what is happening on the inside. It is the core belief of the 2 witnesses and is equally important in identifying the true witnesses. There will be false prophets who go out and prophecy but if what they believe are not the same things hidden and revealed in Revelation 10 than you know there is no light in them.

I don't believe the entire world will realize when this event is happening. It states that when their dead bodies stood up on their feet, 'great fear fell upon those who saw it'. It doesn't imply that everyone should see it and to back that up, Jesus said that the end would be like in the days of Noah. There would be those totally oblivious that anything was wrong at all until the end came and they were all taken away.

I imagine this event to be similar to the witch burning days. The two witnesses will appear as witches or 'negative energy' or from dark forces. That's why it would be good to just take a step back and see if you're with or against the mob because I don't believe being called Christian is good enough in this case.

reply to post by iamnot

Thank you for those comments.
I must think about them further.
I do have one immediate thought about John being told he must prophesy "again"; Ezekiel was told to swallow a similar scroll in Ezekiel ch3, and then he was then told to go and prophesy to Israel. So I think "again" refers to the fact that John is the second person to be told to do a task of this kind. Like being told to do another "measuring of the Temple" at the beginning of ch11.
Yes, it's true that treating the chapter separately has detached it from part of its context.



[edit on 29-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Logarock

 

You say Moses and Elijah.
What's your response to those who argue the case for Enoch?

Could be Enoch.

Please don't kill me for my opinion.

I think the two witnesses, were the Twin Towers.

No scripture to back up my thinking, or anything for that matter.

Originally posted by MY2Commoncentsworth
reply to post by Logarock

 

Originally posted by Logarock
Just some hints here.....Moses and Elijah were doth on Mt Sinai, did the 40 day thing, and more plus Elijah clearly was taken away from the earth. Moses it says had satan and mike fight over his "body" which may be a hidden way of saying that he to was taken up as Elijah.

Yes, Moses went up to Mount Sinai, and Elijah went up to Mount Carmel, but I believe that Elijah's fiery chariot was literally an old style horse drawn interdimentional chariot. But I am open to other possibilities.

Elijah also went to Mt Sinai, made a 40 day trip after the events at Mt Carmel.

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Freedom of Thought

 

It could be argued that "appointed to men to die once" (Hebrews ch9 v27) is simply talking about a maximum, ie "not more than once". if you look at the context, the writer is explaining why Christ does not need to die "more than once".

Along these lines and another case for Moses and Elijah is the Mt* of Transfiguration. Christ, who had not died yet was with these two men when he was transfigured.

Big hint here....big hint.