Originally posted by DISRAELI
Following the suggestions that the "two witnesses" might be "the Law and the Prophets";
This lists the passages from the Prophets quoted in this series.

Decoding Revelation

In relation to the above list of references, the question might be asked; why is this interpretation of Revelation being carried out with such attention to other Biblical passages?
"Scrabbling around in the Old Testament" is one phrase that I've seen.
Someone else has suggested that Revelation "is complete in its own context"; that it can and should be treated as an autonomous book, and discussed in isolation from the rest of the Bible.

I think the sheer size of the list of references goes a long way towards answering the question. The Bible is the cultural context in which Revelation was written. It carries a multitude of "echoes" of other Biblical passages.

The readers of John's time knew the Old Testament so much better than modern Christians do, and they could not have failed to have recognised these allusions. And surely they would have understood the book in the light of these recognitions. When they saw the "Beast from the sea" in ch13, for example, they would have recognised to the allusion to the "beasts from the sea" in Daniel ch7. Then the point would have "clicked"; in both caes, the image represents a kingdom. And this process of recognition-and-understanding would have been happening again and again and again and again all the way through the book.

This is what I've been trying to duplicate. If the "echoes" were planted there in the first place, as clues to the meaning of the book, then it would be foolish to ignore.them.

Let me illustrate my point with an analogy that I've used before;
If you want to understand old political cartoons, you will find yourself completely at sea unless you know something about the politics of the time, and the way it was presented in the cartoons of the time.
For example, you may see a cartoon of a pipe-smoking bulldog having a fight with a long-nosed poodle. Anyone of my generation can unpack the meaning of that picture by remembering the significance of the various "props".
Bulldog=British
Poodle=French
Pipe=Harold Wilson ("And I mean that sincerely")
Long nose=General de Gaulle ("I live in Colombey-les-deux-eglises; they worship God in the other one")
So this is easy enough- an argument between the British and French heads of government.
But anyone who insists on treating the cartoon "in its own context" and ignoring any cultural allusions will be left floundering around, making guesses at random. He'll be telling everybody in sight that the pipe is obviously a volcano in South America, and the poodle represents the archangel Gabriel.

So, yes, Revelation is written in a sort of code.
But most of us have a copy of the code-book.
It is called the Old Testament.

Revelation and Biblical theology

The multitude of cross-references that we've been discovering shows just how much this book Revelation is built into the structure of the Bible.
One of the implications is that the theology of Revelation is part of the structure of Biblical theology, and can't be separated.
That's true about two points in particular.
The Biblical Creator-God is the focus of attention in ch4, and the foundation of everything that happens in Revelation.
Then there's the New Testament teaching about Christ and the act of Atonement, which is the focus of attention in ch5, and the driving-force at the heart of all the subsequent events.

If Revelation is so closely integrated into Christian teaching, that rules out other ways of using the book.

It can't be detached from the Bible and combined with prophetic material from other religions, as a source of generalised "predictions". Because the act of detaching it from the Bible also removes any reason to believe what it says. It is a Biblical book, or nothing.

It can't be used in support of non-Biblical teaching. For example, there's nothing here that allows a doctrine of "re-incarnation". At the end of the book, the results of the judgement- "Life" or "second death"- are permanent. There is no suggestion of any kind that lives are going to be repeated indefinitely.

In fact, since the focus is so firmly on the person of Christ, it is not a book which non-Christian religions can use at all, with any honesty, in support of their own teachings.

And since the focus is so firmly on the Biblical God who gives his followers the instruction "You shall have no other gods but me", it cannot be used to support the kind of religion which denies the existence of distinctions.
In Revelation, as in the rest of the Bible, there is something which is not-God, which needs to be rejected.

In short, this is a Christian book. This project is re-claiming it.

but then we have the end of sacrifices and offerings...
the other way...the original greek said "wing" of the temple in one place...

Just to clarify;
Nothing in the OP is intended to suggest any particular prophetic significance in the year 2012 or the date 21/12/2012

Originally posted by DISRAELI

And IF the "trampling over the holy city" is to be identified with the "war on the saints",
THEN the "trampling" belongs to that future time as well, which means detaching it from the events of A.D.70. It refers to an event comparable to the Roman conquest, not the conquest itself.

I think the writers are always refering to the scripture, so we needn't look to 70ad for anything at all. If God wants us to know something, He will put it in the bible. If God wanted us to think that the 70ad war was relevant to His testimony, then He would've included some account of it in the bible- but He didn't, so it isn't at all important to Him to convey to the world. I believe we should always look to the bible to understand the bible- and NEVER anywhere else.

This is what Jesus said:

Lu 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Now there is only one place in the bible where this occurred:

2Ki 25:1 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon came, he, and all his host, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it; and they built forts against it round about.

Jer 52:4 And it came to pass in the ninth year of his reign, in the tenth month, in the tenth day of the month, that Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon came, he and all his army, against Jerusalem, and pitched against it, and built forts against it round about.

So in the bible, we see that it is the King of Babel that encompassed Jerusalem with armies- and Jesus is stirring up our remembrance of that event by using the words "Jerusalem compassed with armies" to describe the coming desolation of Jerusalem.

Now, "Babylon" is actually a Gentile name- in the Hebrew text it is "Babel" as in the infamous city and tower; so this is really the "King of Babel" and we all know that Babel means "confusion"; so this title "King of Babylon" literally reads "King of Confusion"- now, if I were to ask a Christian "Who is the King of Confusion?" I think the answer would pretty well be a resounding, "Satan"

So what do we have here? We have the King of Confusion coming to trample Jerusalem down, conquer the holy people, and carry them away captive into Confusion/Babel/Babylon. This is basically Jeremiah's entire message: The King of Confusion is coming to attack this city and carry the inhabitants away captive into Confusion. This is the role of the second beast- and this is why he is repeating the actions of the King of Confusion- because it was the King of Confusion who made war against the holy people, conquered them, and carried them away out of their own land and into Confusion; this is the same King of Confusion that built an image at Dan 3 and required every "people, nation and tongue" to fall down and worship, or die; and likewise we see the second beast doing the exact same things.

Consider that the entire book of Jeremiah is like a preview of the end of the Christian church; and at the end, the "Jeremiah" of the church would be warning the Christians that they have horrifically handled the Word of Truth and caused the entire world to fall into confusion because of their petty bickerings over doctrines and refusal to hear any doctrine than the one they were tauight by their parents. And through their supplanting truth with their false traditions, they have, like the Jews before them, brought disaster upon themselves- thus as Jeremiah warned the Jews, the King of Babel is coming to judge this nation; likewise I warn, the King of Confusion is coming to judge this church and every professed member of the church, to conquer and overthrow them all, and carry them away captive into Confusion.

Here is how it looks to me to go down:

Satan and his angels are sent- by God Himself- to pretend to be Jesus and the saints returned from on high to establish the kingdom of God. Probably this will take the form of a Catholic apocalypse; meaning, Satan will appear as the "Jesus of the Catholic church" probably heralded by the final pope. All of the Christians will shout for joy when "Jesus" calls down fire from heaven to consume the armies of Islam; and saving the earthly nation men call Israel. The Christians will praise "Jesus" and enthrone him as the capstone. This is what it means about the son of perdition sitting in the temple; it means the false Jesus (Satan) will be made the head of the church by the Christians. As horrific as it may first sound; the Christians are all going to become Satan worshippers- and through their error the rest of the earth will follow suite. All because they really never cared about the bible enough to really read it; they just wanted a social club that made them look good in the eyes of their peers, and to just follow the doctrine of what their parents had created for them to dwell within.

Also, I do feel it necessity to repeat for those who listen, there are 4 judgment events in the bible with day/month timetables embedded in them: the flood, the exodus, the war of the king of confusion, and purim (there is also such a timetable for the building of the temple in the days of Hag and Zech); only these 4 judgment events have such a peculiar thing as an exact day/month timetable:

I am convinced that these 4 judgment events are prophetic pictures of the final judgment of God upon the earth, and He has given these timetables for His people to understand and recognize the things as they transpire *exactly according to timetable*

Of these, the war of the king of confusion will be launched on the 10th day of the 10th month, and will run its course to the complete razing of the temple on Av 7

So, according to this understanding: in some future year- on the 10th day of the 10th month, the King of Confusion is coming with "all his host" to deceive the world into believing the biggest lie of all time. On the 10th day of the 10th month of some future year. A world-wide deception causing worldwide apostacy from the true Christ.

Now, everyone in the world is going to be saying "The King of Peace!" but you are going to be looking at your hebrew calendar and saying to yourself, "Today is the 10th day of the 10th month and this is not the King of Peace" and that is when it will fall to you either to stand up and say "It's the King of Confusion" and prove it with the bible which already wrote it down; or to shrink back in fear and keep it to yourself. But know this one thing: the fearful will by no means enter the kingdom.

edit: also, not saying it MUST be this year- but note that this year's Tevet 10 actually does fall on the alleged Mayan long-count end date of Dec 23: so, either a coincidence; or a potent sign- you decide

Originally posted by MrCobb
it means the false Jesus (Satan) will be made the head of the church by the Christian... As horrific as it may first sound; the Christians are all going to become Satan worshippers-

The New Testament clearly implies that a false Jesus will be in control of the church, whether or not he arrives in the way you suggest.
However, I must certainly take issue with that word "All".
There will definitely be exceptions. The worship of the second Beast is limited to those whose names are not "written in the book of life" (ch13 v9).
Ch13 is about the resistance to this worship, and what happens to it, and the whole point of the book Revelation is to encourage the resistance.