Religious Rally has over 750k attendees.

Saltheart;

I have never been referred to as a
troll before. Congratulations on your
destinction of being the first!

Now that is out of the way I have to
ask if I really needto be this specific
for you?

Taxation:

When I wrote that taxes were around
before this country was I was referring
to things like the "Stamp Act" or the
Boston Tea Party. Also I seem to remember
something that went like "No Taxation
Without Representation".

As far as the Constitution and Bill of
Rights you are wrong once again.

Article 1; Section 6 states that the House
of Representatives are responsible for
"raising monies". The Senate will then change
or ratify said bill.

Article 1; Section 8 specifically states
that Congress is the only authority to
"raise funds" or tax monies the the
General Well Being of The Union.

These were written prior to the Constitution
being ratified by the States. (pre-existed).

That was about 110-115 years before
1913.

There is also no reference to your right
to own property. It does state in the 4th
Admendment that the government cannot
search or seize your property without a
warrant. (I am also against Eminent Domain)
so we agree on that.

And so far as "Apportionment",to make
it easy I'll just say it equals the census and
taxes evenly collected.

I do not mind your questions but try to
ask them with less condecension.
I can at least back my statements with
facts and not arrogance.

reply to post by capgrup


If you read that reply again, I was attempting to say that those on THIS site, that usually ask about rights we have lost, are just attempting to be trollish.

That is why I said sorry about being snippy.

Let me say it again, sorry about being snippy.

Alright.

I do not know the taxation argument as well as others.

But I will try.

First off, yes the Federal government is allowed to tax, within certain boundaries.

They are allowed to tax for the purpose of enumerated powers first off.
The General Welfare clause is bull and I cannot go into that. That in and of itself is completely bull on the government's part. They could argue that putting people to death, if it was for the good of the country, would be Constitutional. Hell, list to Stark, he states that the federal government can do pretty much anything and that is the attitude of the entire federal government. If true, why are you and I even arguing the finer points of the Constitution. They will do anything they want anyway. Do you think the federal government can do anything it wants?

Direct and Indirect taxation.

Income tax has to be apportioned evenly amongst the people. So, first off that is not how it is done, therefore unConstitutional.

I do not want to write this all out. I will get a small component wrong and someone will point it out. This is not my specialty. Several here on this site could explain it better. I think a member called Jean Paul Zodeau could give you an excellent idea on the taxation breakdown. I have read several of his comments on this component.

Saltheart;

No problem. I get carried away myself
and it is difficult to step back somtimes.

I would say in the long run we agree on
alot of the same issues.

Eminent Domain is theft by government
and corporations and the government
will try to get anything and everything
they can.

I got to go so I'll catch you later.

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
As for everyone out there looking for a SOURCE, that source would be me.

How about some links and explanation of how you came up with that number?

I did some looking into aerial photography of past rallies last night, and I would have to say that the crowds at the "Million Man March" and the 2004 "March for Choice" both appear to have been a good deal bigger than your aerial photos of the Beck/Palin rally.

So far, the only actual estimate I've seen is the CBS one of 87,000; most of the places reporting 300,000-500,000 seem to be reporting what Beck claimed, not what they actually estimate.

reply to post by americandingbat


Boy, I thought I already covered this.

I guess you are just repeating the same thing over and over again? Is that your ruse?

Here, a picture used by the National Park service when estimating crowds there-

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/47944c813714.jpg[/atsimg]



Now, if you notice, I darkened the areas that were filled with people.
These areas are WIDER than those on the other side. With the packing not so tight I lowered the number to 750k.

Now, can YOU show me the SOURCE of the CBS numbers and HOW THEY came up with the 20 that they said were there?

Edit to add modified National Park estimate picture.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/5ef9497e3f04.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 29-8-2010 by saltheart foamfollower]

MORE PROOF! WOW, from another COUNTRY'S media. Just goes to show you that you cannot listen to the propaganda media here in the states and here on THIS THREAD!

My DC pic using the National Parks estimation needs to be adjusted after finding this picture.

NOTICE the people on the right.

From here-www.bbc.co.uk...

Alright, I have to adjust my numbers, now 825,000 people!

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower
reply to post by americandingbat

 

Boy, I thought I already covered this.

I guess you are just repeating the same thing over and over again? Is that your ruse?

No ruse, I just wanted to try and understand how you got your numbers. Links are helpful to people who want to check things out. For instance, it would be nice to have a link to the source of the picture you gave so I could actually use the mouseover functions

Here, a picture used by the National Park service when estimating crowds there-

So you just took a guesstimate? Nothing wrong with that, but it's good to know.

From what I've read their 2.5 square feet per person would be a lot more packed than the pictures you've shown are; I would guess more like 5 square feet per person towards the front down to 10 or more towards the back.

Now, can YOU show me the SOURCE of the CBS numbers and HOW THEY came up with the 20 that they said were there?

Well, I assume you've read the CBS article, but just in case you can find it here:
Glenn Beck Rally Attracts Estimated 87,000

In it they give the source of the estimate as a private company named AirPhotosLive.com and if you follow the links through the website you can see a couple of the photos they based their estimations on here.

edit because I hit reply instead of preview

[edit on 8/29/2010 by americandingbat]

reply to post by americandingbat


Well, for one, AirPhotosLive.com does NOT estimate crowd sizes.

Here is their who we are page and WHAT they do.

www.airphotoslive.com...

I am sure ALL AirPhotoLive did was supply the photos. They have to do with the urban development and architecture aspects. Nothing to do with crowd estimation.

I have just sent them an email. I am expecting to hear they did not supply the numerical estimate.

We shall see.

Thought I would add this video, Beck goes over the crowd size and talks about God.

If talking about God offends you, do not bother.

Originally posted by Kaploink

Originally posted by saltheart foamfollower

The black robe regiment has been called into being again. Wonder if the feds are going to threaten the Churches not to talk politics in the Churches?

Actually, they wouldn't threaten the churches, they would just take away their tax exempt status. Churches have every right to talk politics as long as they don't mind paying taxes like the rest of us. Thats the big rub. A lot of church leaders don't want to lose their nice cars, expensive homes and even personal jets yet still want to be able to push their politic view from the pulpit.

I will have to give Beck credit for the big attendance at his Goldline sponsored book promotion event. He should be able to sell a large number of volumes of his new book "The Plan".

Where in the 1'st Amendment does it state that one must pay taxes to enjoy freedom of speech again?? Gee, I must have missed that.....

Originally posted by MrXYZ
Religion shouldn't enter politics!!

Repeat after me: THE USA ARE NOT A THEOCRACY!!

All I saw was 750k (or however many) people standing around a pool, listening to people who talk about rainbow unicorns and cute little leprechauns. Why? Because tabbing into people's faith makes it VERY easy to steer those gullible believers and brainwash them with whatever agenda they want. Also, notice how they had a rabbi and a Christian priest...but funny enough no Muslim? Sure, they're not racist

No one talked about mythical animals, and your false claims to the contrary do nothing but make your position look weaker. For one clearly on the liberal side of things to talk of others being brainwashed is, though, rather droll. By the way, Islam isn't a race, and not including Muslims at a rally promoting Judeo-Christian values isn't wrong. Gee, guess you don't think those people have a right to their religion, huh?

Originally posted by MrXYZLately, FOX started a tirade against Muslims...and now we have crazy people entering mosques and pissing all over the place. What happened to "freedom" and "liberties", the core values of this nations?? They are trying to turn the country into a theocracy, and it's not only scary, but also kinda sad.

[edit on 28-8-2010 by MrXYZ]

Get the details in order, please. Muslims started this, by their continued terrorist attacks for YEARS, on countries the world over. If Fox is addressing this FACT, why would you think them wrong? Seems to me we would all be better off it the President were addressing this FACT, instead of pretending there isn't a problem. You know, like refusing to call at leash three terrorist attacks in the U.S. since he took office what they were?

As for your alleged attacks on mosques, did you protest THIS behavior? -

Attack on Church

What is sad is so many people are willing to coddle terrorists, and make all sorts of concessions for them, but those same people condemn those that will not accept this, and act as though Christians should not have any religious freedoms at all. Hypocrisy!

I have to say looking at this event from over the pond, it's slightly scary. I knew Americans were religious, but from the video's I have seen, it looks like the start of some kind of Theocracy.
If the faces were brown and the God they were talking about was Allah, it could have looked like a middle eastern theocracy.

I really can't believe how some Americans seem to be lapping all this up. Glenn Beck is a clown on mainstream media owned by Rupert Murdoch for gods sake. Not some maverick fighting against the establishment, he's part of the establishment.

Oh well, I look forward to president Beck or Palin visiting the UK, our media will have a field day.

Originally posted by woodwardjnr
it looks like the start of some kind of Theocracy.

People of faith getting together and praying isn't a theocracy. It's just them exercising their constitutional right to peacefully gather and pray. None of them made any religious laws that anyone else has to follow. It isn't even close to a theocracy.

I suspect beck is a false prophet. I feel pity to everyone who actually believes him. Cause if you believe the likes of beck, me think you probably have fallen from grace.

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
I suspect beck is a false prophet. I feel pity to everyone who actually believes him. Cause if you believe the likes of beck, me think you probably have fallen from grace.

Why?

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


I look forward to hearing how they respond.

I did see that crowd estimates are not on their webpage as an advertised service, but I didn't take that to mean that they couldn't be hired to do one, just that it's not one of their most frequently requested services.

850k....lol...come on...you don't believe that.

Here is a link to an article covering all the "estimates"

Conflicting Crowd Estimate Reports

The ONLY expert analysis has the crowd size between 78,000 and 96,000.

NBC News reported: “tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands.”

ABC News reported: “the rally has attracted more than 100,000 people.”

Fox News reported: “CROWD ATTENDING BECK RALLY ESTIMATED AT OVER 500,000.”

Glen Beck's own estimate: “it was between 300,000 and 500,000."

Michele Bachman: "We're not going to let anyone get away with saying there were less than a million here today – because we were witnesses."


So there you have it...you have a bunch of RIDICULOUS guesstimates (including yours). And you have ONE analysis by THREE different experts using their own seperate methodology. I'll stick with the expert analysis to your eyeball fantasy anyday.

And to the OP questioning the AirPhotoLive estimate...here is a quote from CNN saying they already contacted them to verify the estimate:

CNN contacted AirPhotosLive.com about the estimate they did for CBS News. A company official told CNN they used photos taken from their tethered balloons to shoot photos at the height of the crowd. They then had 3 experts use their own methodologies to evaluate the crowd. Company officials said they extrapolated the crowd size from 2-D and 3-D grids of the photographs marked off in small boxes.

I would say MUCH more accurate than your eyeballs comparing pictures.


Plus...it's not like they are packed in there...look at the pictures...the people have LAWN CHAIRS set out...some have blankets spread out. And this is in the FRONT of the crowd.


I don't know why people do this...you are just setting yourself up for dissapointment. You LIE to yourself and others to try to pretend there are more people involved than there are. Then election time comes...and those people seem to just disappear...and then you cry election fraud.

Why not go with the 96k estimate...that is a GOOD number...a SUCCESSFUL rally. But when you make ridiculous claims like 850k people showed up...you just get laughed at.

And the sad thing is that Glenn Beck, Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin KNOW there weren't 500k+ there...but they enjoy lying to you and getting you all worked up over "official estimates"...so they can manipulate you and mold your mind into exactly what they want you to believe in the future. And it seems like they have done a good job.



EDIT: to fix quote and to add in quote from AirPhotoLive

[edit on 30-8-2010 by OutKast Searcher]

reply to post by saltheart foamfollower


You think that looks like 3/4 of a million people? Seriously?

reply to post by OutKast Searcher


Becks estimate was probably the best. 300-500 K.
He's going to be careful because he knows he's being watched carefully.
The CNN, NBC, ABC etc estimates are skewed down.
Fox and the conservatives probably skewed theirs up.
And NBC .... well ....

Originally posted by Quadrivium

Originally posted by Jazzyguy
I suspect beck is a false prophet. I feel pity to everyone who actually believes him. Cause if you believe the likes of beck, me think you probably have fallen from grace.

Why?

A false prophet is a counterfeit. As a christian you won't fall for such deception if yourself are always aware about the truth. But sometimes people become complacent, hence they got deceived.