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Am I losing my Religion?

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posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 07:35 AM
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reply to post by AidanK
 


Sorry to say that you just do not lose your religion like that, if you are doubtful about your religious believes it means you never had them very strong to Begin with.

Our religious believes are passed to us by our family, usually the first knowledge about a God is learned earlier in life from your parents.

We are no born with a religious denomination, or political affiliation this are given to us as choices depending our closes family members own believes.

As we grow up and learn more on our own we tend to make our own choices. . .




posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by AidanK
 


Sorry to say that you just do not lose your religion like that, if you are doubtful about your religious believes it means you never had them very strong to Begin with.


No offense to Marg, but talk about kicking someone when they are down.


Anyone who has even the slightest inkling of a doubt means they really never truly believed in the first place?

MATTHEW 27:46
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”




To the OP,

Follow your heart and your head to find your path. Unfortunately, everyone has bad things that happen to them whether they believe in God or not. No matter what you chose to believe in, you will get through this.
Good luck to you.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 11:46 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5

Actually thinking for ourselves was what got us into trouble to begin with.



Are you serious??? You really don't see the problem with this comment???

Obviously you've gone too far in not thinking for yourself to try to understand my point, but I'll try anyways...

Okay, so lets just say thinking for ourselves is bad and we should only listen to god through the bible...WHO DO YOU THINK WROTE THE DAMN THINK??? god himself??? NO it was man who wrote it, and according to you man has been sinning since the beginning, right?? So what makes you think that when writing the bible he was sin free and basically wrote only what god wanted??? What makes you think that the sinful man didn't write the bible to MANIPULATE others for power??? Oh that's right you can't think for yourself to be able to answer that.

And "Adam died in his 900's" ...sorry but I can't even get in to this because...I"M ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING..come on man, were you there yourself to verify this or is that from the book that tells you not to think???

I hope I'm not offending you as that is not my intention. I too believe in a god, but I rather not have a book written by a sinful man shove illogical thoughts down my throat. If god gave us free will, aren't we suppose to use our brain to choose. There would essentially be no need for free will if we can't think for ourselves. Thinking is what makes it free, or else we wouldn't need free will.

The difference between my advice to OP and yours is that I'm trying to encourage thinking so that they can find their OWN path. You on the other hand think your doing a good deed by telling them not think and just follow because you know the path yourself. I'm sorry but who are you or anyone else to feel self righteous enough to think you know what path others need to go on.

BTW, is there any chance you were force fed this nonsense as a child before the age you could critically think??? I'm will to bet you were.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 12:32 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by endlessknowledge
Are you serious??? You really don't see the problem with this comment???

Your not exactly taking that remark in the light in which I meant it. What I am stating is that in the beginning man was in communion with God, meaning we could talk to him and he would answer. As a matter of fact several Pseudepigraphal texts state that the descendants of Adam and Eve witnessed them talking in an entirely different and unknown language of God and his Angels.

So with that in mind, God literally told them what to do and not do to keep them out of harms way. They in turn doubted and disobeyed God after being told what not to do. I am sure that you have come across the remark “Faith of a Child” in the Bible. That is what it means, taking God at his word, with no doubt, and without question. Having complete faith and trust in what God is telling you is right and correct.


Originally posted by endlessknowledge
Okay, so lets just say thinking for ourselves is bad and we should only listen to god through the bible...WHO DO YOU THINK WROTE THE DAMN THINK??? god himself??? NO it was man who wrote it, and according to you man has been sinning since the beginning, right?? So what makes you think that when writing the bible he was sin free and basically wrote only what god wanted??? What makes you think that the sinful man didn't write the bible to MANIPULATE others for power???

The books of the Bible that are in the final version were ones that are considered to be Divinely Inspired. Devine Inspiration means that God literally put the words right into the authors heads. Actually, the first books of the Law, as written by Moses, were supposedly dictated to Moses by God himself. That is why so many people believe that there is a Bible Code hidden in those first few books.


Originally posted by endlessknowledge
And "Adam died in his 900's" ...sorry but I can't even get in to this because...I"M ROLLING ON THE FLOOR LAUGHING..come on man, were you there yourself to verify this or is that from the book that tells you not to think???

Wikipedia: Adam

According to the Genealogies of Genesis, Adam died at the age of 930. With such numbers, calculations such as those of Archbishop Ussher would suggest that Adam would have died only about 127 years before the birth of Noah, nine generations after Adam. In other words, Adam's lifespan would have overlapped Lamech (the father of Noah) at least fifty years. Ussher and a group of theologians and scholars in 1630 performed calculations and created a study that reported the creation of Adam on October 23, 4004 BC at 9:00 am and lived to 3074 BC. There was controversy over the fact that Ussher believed the whole creation process occurred on that day.

There is actually no complete scientific explanation for aging, or why different organisms seem to grow older at faster rates then others:
Evolution of Aging

Enquiry into the evolution of ageing aims to explain why almost all living things weaken and die with age. There is not yet agreement in the scientific community on a single answer. The evolutionary origin of senescence remains a fundamental unsolved problem in biology.
Historically, ageing was first likened to "wear and tear": living bodies get weaker just as with use a knife's edge becomes dulled or with exposure to air and moisture iron objects rust. But this idea was discredited in the 19th century when the second law of thermodynamics was formalized. Entropy (disorder) must increase inevitably within a closed system, but living beings are not closed systems. It is a defining feature of life that it takes in free energy from the environment and unloads its entropy as waste. Living systems can even build themselves up from seed, and routinely repair themselves. There is no thermodynamic necessity for senescence. In addition, generic damage or "wear and tear" theories could not explain why biologically similar organisms (e.g. mammals) exhibited such dramatically different life spans.

Scientists have also since found the Longevity Gene and been able to almost double the lifespan of certain roundworms.


Originally posted by endlessknowledge
If god gave us free will, aren't we suppose to use our brain to choose.

Yes, but we are not supposed to second guess things that God himself has directly told us. That is lack of faith in God.


Originally posted by endlessknowledge
BTW, is there any chance you were force fed this nonsense as a child before the age you could critically think??? I'm will to bet you were.

Nope, I actually reach my 20’s and started to wonder if I really believed myself or it was simply something that I was taught over the years. As you can see, I have remained a Christian despite my bit of doubting, as I find truth in what is written. I only have problems with other human’s interpretations of what is written.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 12:44 PM
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reply to post by defcon5
 

So if we don't second guess what god allegedly told us, what is god looking for exactly? Is his heaven going to be full of mindless robots? What a horrible existence to live in where you aren't allowed to question things and find knowledge.... I guess the whole free will arguement is just an illusion afterall..



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 12:46 PM
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reply to post by Schleprock
 


Sadly that you see my post in that way, but I do not sugar coat reality.

I just stating what is the truth, religious believes are not easily dismiss, forgotten and neither lost, they are always there is just that the person can not find then as he or she has learned and research more.

I have not religious affiliations and neither believe in Christianity, does that makes me an atheist, well I got my own interpretation due to my research and understanding of religion even when I grew up in a very religious environment and have to attend my mothers church (catholic) and my fathers church, (seventh day Adventist), I guess I came to the realization later in life that religion was nothing but the biggest hoax been played on human kind.


Did I lost faith? no, just that I never had it to Begin with even with all the religion around me.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 12:51 PM
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Originally posted by CHA0S
I am also agnostic, and I would urge you to listen to the words of the above poster. However, isn't it perhaps a little arrogant to blame "God" when we turn this planet into a living hell?


lol, maybe, but if "GOD" really made us, why would he make such a flawled creature? most people are literally crazy, its hard to find good people nowadays

is our fault that we act like ANIMALS? we are not suppose to be much superior to other species ... thats the truth, we are just like them

for some crazy evolutionary process, we are smarter, but our instincts are still strong

thats how I can explain why our world is $#%&$¨¨&$1



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 01:32 PM
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Originally posted by AidanK
I've been a lifelong member of the Roman Catholic church. I always believed in God and have prayed daily just like I was taught in my youth. Lately, the economy has tanked, my mother's health has taken a turn for the worse and things just generally stink - very badly.

I watch the nightly news and see nothing but bad news and disasters befalling humanity around the globe. I really can't believe it but for the first time I'm starting to question how this can be. How can my loving God allow these things to happen?

I have almost stopped praying for anything. I no longer believe that anyone is listening. I have always been taught that God answers ALL prayers, even if we might not like the answer but I must say that why MUST the answer ALWAYS be NO?? I don't constantly ask for things, just a little help with life.

I guess I'm about at my breaking point and floundering for help. Can anyone provide any advice here? Many thanks to you all.


Read the book of Job.

That is essentially God's message to us that being a believer doesn't make it easier, it just gives you something to lean back on when you get deep into the suck.

Read Paul's stuff. He did more arguably than any other Christian in history. Trust me when I say that his life sucked....

I'll pray for you too brother. You need to find other Christians to have fellowship with. It's their job to keep the faith for you when yours falters.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 01:37 PM
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Originally posted by Faiol

Originally posted by CHA0S
I am also agnostic, and I would urge you to listen to the words of the above poster. However, isn't it perhaps a little arrogant to blame "God" when we turn this planet into a living hell?


lol, maybe, but if "GOD" really made us, why would he make such a flawled creature? most people are literally crazy, its hard to find good people nowadays

is our fault that we act like ANIMALS? we are not suppose to be much superior to other species ... thats the truth, we are just like them

for some crazy evolutionary process, we are smarter, but our instincts are still strong

thats how I can explain why our world is $#%&$¨¨&$1


... well, if you were to take the Bible's account of it - we WERE perfect, but sin changed that.

So, I guess it really depends on if you believe in God or not. If you do (at least in the Judaio-Christian (sp?) model, then that's your answer.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 01:43 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by AidanK
 


Sorry to say that you just do not lose your religion like that, if you are doubtful about your religious believes it means you never had them very strong to Begin with.

Our religious believes are passed to us by our family, usually the first knowledge about a God is learned earlier in life from your parents.

We are no born with a religious denomination, or political affiliation this are given to us as choices depending our closes family members own believes.

As we grow up and learn more on our own we tend to make our own choices. . .





I disagree with your original statement. To doubt doesn't mean you're not very strong in your belief, but instead means you're demonstrating a critical mind.

I have doubts, then between prayer, research, and general introspection, I come to the conclusion that I have faith in my Faith.

I would rather every Christian out there doubt their faith and come back to it than just blissfully accept it.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 01:44 PM
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Originally posted by defcon5


Originally posted by endlessknowledge
If god gave us free will, aren't we suppose to use our brain to choose.

Yes, but we are not supposed to second guess things that God himself has directly told us. That is lack of faith in God.


What are you talking about "directly"? do you even know what directly means? Did god personally call you or did he come over for tea?
I would call the info you possess about god to be as INDIRECT as it can get. That is actually my point. Since the bible is written by man thousands of years a go, then it's safe to presume that it could have been changes by the "sinful man", either when if was first written or afterwords.

Thanks for the wikipedia link bu the way..now I know for certain that he lived till he was 930.


Judging by the fact that you said a solid "nope" to my previous question about being force fed your beliefs, its clear that you lack self awareness and are not real to yourself because I truly think that you really believe what your saying is the truth...but IT IS NOT. I asked if you were preached this stuff as a young child and you replied with "nope" followed by I had a bit of doubt in my 20's"...meaning you were force fed this nonsense but then you thought about it for probably a few minutes and went back to conforming. That would mean the answer to my question is YES.

In fact this lack of self awareness is what makes people do bad thing because you can't even decipher between the truth and fiction. I'm not saying your a bad person, but it's this mentality that leads people to do wrong thing and not feel bad about it.

Basically, all of the things you believe in regarding religion has not only be force fed to you at a young age, but is all HEARSAY and the validity of it is questionable at best. But your told that it's a sin to question god.

When you can't even be sure about these thing, how can you preach to other. That's probably how this nonsense started with in the first place. Its akin to the blind leading others to the light. It's just not gonna happen.

BTW, since according to yourself "Devine Inspiration means that God literally put the words right into the authors heads", then why did god need a book to get his message across? why did he not just continue getting in peoples heads directly?

Like I said before, it's very difficult to reach through to someone who has had years of conditioning as a child. You have too much ego connected to your beliefs. In your mind you don't believe in Christianity, you are Christianity and change is very difficult for you. So I'll stop trying to bring light into a flood because it seems over your head as you seem to prefer drowning in your self righteousness. So I'm done!!!

peace and love be with you



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 01:47 PM
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reply to post by AidanK
 


Aidan, I too was raised as a Roman Catholic. When I was 18, I left the church in search of Truth. I found it, or more aptly, it found me in 2005 when I was blessed to have been called into service to God and Creator, Yahweh.

Shedding one's "Religion" is one thing - you will not find the answers to what you seek there as all religions of today are seen as false in Yahweh's eyes because they are not founded in truth.

Shedding one's faith due to unanswered prayers is another. Do you claim to know better than our God in what is best for you and your loved ones? When you go in prayer to God, do you expect your prayer to be answered immediately and exactly how you ask for it to be answered? If so, this may be where the problem lies.

"How can my loving God allow these things to happen?" You ask.

This is not an easy question to answer, because in reality there are many reasons, explanations and possibilities depending on the person asking the question. And it’s also not easy as a minister, who, while having compassion and empathy for those who are suffering, must also say to them in all truthfulness that, “God IS loving, but right now God is also angry.”

In order to gain knowledge as to what we are all experiencing in these End Times and amidst the Tribulation, the first thing to do is to look into what the word Tribulation means because while many of us are aware of the word as spoken of in the scriptures, it helps to actually read the definition so that we might apply its meaning to what we’re currently experiencing and come to a better and more complete understanding.

So what does the word tribulation really mean? It’s defined as being a great affliction, trial, or distress; suffering. But what you may not know is that it’s also defined as an experience that tests one’s endurance, patience or faith.

In learning the definition of the word tribulation, we discover that Father forewarned us all of what we would experience; a period of great affliction, distress and suffering. And that these things would also test our endurance, patience and faith.

Many people feel they are good people of good character and that perhaps they don’t deserve the pain or suffering, but it is important to realize that it’s not by our own standards that we are judged but by Father's.

So what is character? Character is defined as the features and traits that form the individual nature of a person, their moral or ethical quality, reputation, etc.

The building character can mean many things for many people. One sure thing that experiencing any sort of tribulation does, is that it builds character and based on how the person approaches that tribulation or does in response to the tribulation will determine the type of character that is built up within them. It can be either good or bad depending on the choices that are made by the individual.

For instance, a person who is faced with a situation in which they do not have the money with which to pay their rent might choose to turn to Father in prayer or, they might choose to turn their back on Father out of anger and commit an illegal act in which to gain the money they need.

Because our sinfulness is innate, there is always room in all of us for the building of good character. We are, none of us, worthy of the undeserved kindness that has been bestowed upon us. Building character can mean endurance, patience, understanding, obedience, compassion or strength. And it can even mean learning to be surrender and be humble. There are many, many qualities that we are all lacking in and that different tests, trials or tribulations may teach us.

Romans 5:4 “endurance produces proven character, and proven character produces hope.“

So the answer is, yes, Father is angry but Father and Christ DO love us as well, and if you’ve ever loved anyone and been angry with them at the same time, then you know that it is absolutely possible to feel both emotions at the same time.

However, we must not allow the pain or suffering to cause us to question our faith, but instead to build our faith. We must endure because we are all tested in different ways, but we must remain strong and steadfast and obedient to Father's will. This too has also been illustrated in the scriptures as examples for us of Father’s chosen one’s who while they served Father faithfully, also experienced pain and suffering. They too were tested and while some failed, others endured.

Luke 21:19 “By your endurance gain your lives.”

Currently we are witnessing Father making Herself known to mankind through the effects of the Tribulation that is upon us, and over time more and more will question their faith and others will even curse Father for the judgment that is upon us. This is all a part of the culling process and must occur and as it must occur, we must endure so that we may gain our lives.

If at any point it feels that it’s too much, stop and consider this: Christ was of perfect character and without sin, and yet he suffered… for us.

Father does not wish that any of Her children should suffer or die - but these things must come to pass. So please, hold on tightly to your faith and do not let go no matter what. Continue to endure and guard your heart too. I cannot stress enough how important this is in this day and age.

Proverbs 4:23 “Guard your heart above all else, for it is the source of life.”



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:05 PM
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You are losing your religion because you are realizing the truth. It's a truth that you've probably always known, but one that you have suppressed and ignored because it isn't what you wanted to hear and it isn't what you were told to believe. You drank the Kool-aid and you accepted the falsehoods as fact, because they were desirable and apparently what was "right", but they were not.

The truth is that there is no God. Your prayers are not being answered because there is no nobody to answer them.

Ghandi said, "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." If you want to help, you must help others yourself. Even if you can't help poverty-stricken children forced from their homes in Africa, you can help people locally. Volunteer, give your time, and actually go out and help people. Stop begging for help from something that doesn't exist.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:16 PM
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first thougt...listen to REM



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by AidanK
I really can't believe it but for the first time I'm starting to question how this can be. How can my loving God allow these things to happen?


He is not letting anything happen. He gave people free will so it's only our doing. See, humanity is God's best lawyer. Whatever he does, we will just explain it away somehow.

This is hypotethically, if God really existed.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:20 PM
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The OP post....man it touched me pretty deep as I was that SAME person in your shoes a year ago. My long series of unfortunate events lasted a little over 1 year but only difference between you and I? I had been an atheist my entire life and it was those events that caused me to find God for the 1st time in my life.

I am a retired US military combat wounded vet (injured literally weeks before Airspoon...who is a member on here as well, and what is even more trippy is that my injury occurred not too far from where Airspoon got hit weeks later lol), but my point is....is that I had been in some pretty hairy situations in life and not ONCE had I ever called out to God, or asked Jesus Christ to forgive me for my sins and be my savior. Nope never. My dogtags still to this day say NRP down for Religious Preference.

That is....until soon after I retired June 1st, 2009. I never fully dealt with my PTSD while I was still in and was a part of the Wounded Warrior program, and then I was still struggling living in chronic pain from my injuries/subsequent surgeries/other painful procedures. And on top of all that I pretty much had a never ending supply of STRONG Opiate narcotics, and those lovely little small blue pills called Xanax (which to this day I think they were manufactured by the devil himself...if anyone else out there has had...."experiences" on Xanax I am sure might agree).

So...add those to my passion for guns and well...it was a long dark slippery slope into the abyss....one that I almost never made it out from. To this very day I have absolutely no memory of the many crazy events I was involved in while traveling down that downward spiral :-/ I carried a 9mm bullet in my pocket where I had used a Sharpie marker to write my name on it. Unfortunately I had realized that I was living on borrowed time and that when the dust settled...it would be that bullet that would "save me" from whatever misery still awaited me.

Without getting into to much more detail here...I pretty much lost everything I had in that year. My small business which had lost 62% from FY2008 to FY2009, both of my cars (Porsche 996 911 Carrera/E46 AC Shnitzer BMW M3), my apartment...granted I had a pension due to serving 20+ years in the military, when you go from making $150k+ a year to $1200.00 a month it brings about many consequences as a result.

So...I had attempted to knock myself off a couple of times before (in fact it was a miracle in itself that I even woke up on one of the attempts as I had taken around 20mg of Xanax and a couple hundred mg of Oxycontin one night and actually woke the hell up the next day. Still do not understand that one fully...but in hindsight I do feel that I had been being "watched over" for quite some time prior to), so I quickly advanced to loading my 9mm bullet into my Springfield XD-9 and chambered it. It was about 10pm at night. Put my finger on the trigger and before I could even begin to apply over a pound of pressure my cellphone rang and it was my 11 year old son from 1st wife that now lives in Tennessee. He called on a cellphone I had gotten him so he COULD call me whenever he wanted. Thing is his mother never would allow him to call me, and even more so that late at night. I had NEVER gotten a call from him that late and here he was saying "Hi dad what you doing? I am supposed to be asleep but I snuck my phone to call you".

Well...to make this already long story short...I found God not too much longer after that moment (things still got worse believe me). And I will add that I had...for the 1st time in my life, asked for a sign and well...I got it the very next day and will just say that it was the mose spiritual experience I had ever had in my life. From the very moment that I had asked God and Jesus Christ to come into my life and give me strength and guidance, my life began changing for the better almost on the spot!! I am now settled into my career (Aerospace Test Engineer with one of the largest defense department contractors in the world), bought me another BMW M3 just 2 months ago, back with a roof over my head and my household goods returned, yada yada.

But what makes you and I, or anyone for that matter....different in these situations? I honestly do not know and wish I did so that I could be of more use to you in these very difficult times you face :-/ But I will say that...I simply found God/Jesus Christ and established MY OWN CONNECTION with them (and I "speak" to Them and thank Them almost every day). I DO NOT nor will I ever subscribe to any organized dogma as I am a firm believer that ALL organized religions had been infiltrated by both man himself and TPTB many many moons ago and cannot bring myself to believe that...they did not corrupt the original meaning of being spiritual and establishing and maintaining a connection with God/Jesus Christ.

So between that, putting my best foot forward each and every day, and honestly trying my best to become a better person and offer help/assistance to my fellow brothers/sisters (i.e. humanity) whenever they are in need and I am in a position to do so....my life continues on with abundance in it. Again I wish I was able to share more/relate more to your situation and I apologize if I am unable to do so, but I would say that MANY people the world over question their faith on a daily basis...some even stepping away from it for awhile (for good) but that is the funny/cool thing I think about God is that...he understands man and is ready/willing to accept you back into His good grace whenever you are ready ;-) I say it is okay to question things (that is how God designed us anyways) all I say is WHATEVER IS STILL TO COME DO NOT EVER QUIT MAN, DON'T GIVE UP NO MATTER WHAT! When you are ready reestablish your connection with God but perhaps do it a little differently next time ya know? I do not think that the Supreme Being along with Jesus Christ REQUIRES us to subscribe to ANY ORGANIZED FAITH BASED RELIGION MAN...ONLY TO HAVE BELIEF IN THAT THEY EXIST and to do your best to be a good person and to show to Them that you are grateful and appreciative, THAT'S IT! NOTHING MORE, NOTHING LESS.

Good luck and best wishes to you and your family (I will pray for both your mother and you), and U2U me anytime and I be glad to try and help in whatever way I can. Just remember to never give up completely, things will turn around...they always do ;-)

NT



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:27 PM
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If God is real, he's a sick son of a bitch. That said, he's not, and we as humans should accept the circumstances of life and aspire to help others without the reaching for help from an imaginary figure in the sky!



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:32 PM
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reply to post by AidanK
 


A response similar to mine may have been left already and if so I apologize for the repeat, as I didn't have time to read all of the comments, but as a Christian one Bible verse that has been a huge comfort to me personally is the following:

Romans 8:28 (New American Standard Bible)

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

(link www.biblegateway.com...:28&version=NASB)



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:37 PM
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reply to post by AidanK
 


You're not losing your spirituality, you're just beginning your journey - you're beginning to think for yourself.

I recommend you stop watching the MSM (any news source that is controlled by the government) - do your own research - find things out for yourself.

Eventually you will see it's good to shed the religious propaganda you've been having shoved down your throat for so long and to think for yourself.

Once that begins to happen you will further your spirituality even more.

"God" can be many things - we are each our own 'god' in a sense - we are all connected through one consciousness - call that god if you wish, I just call what I believe in spirituality.

I wish the best for you, peace, love & happiness.

Try meditation by the way, even if you still want to stay religious and all, the bible talks about mediation although it focuses more on 'Christ meditation' rather than having an open mind and meditating and learning things for yourself.

Try having an open mind and see what happens... what's the worst that can happen? Things get better?

Good luck



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 02:39 PM
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We each have choices to make. Follow your heart and continue to seek truth. I am sorry to hear things are hard for you right now, best wishes.

Remember though, Christ showed us how to get through suffering by his example.



[edit on 28-8-2010 by slane69]



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