Fidel Castro: bin Laden is a CIA agent

Originally posted by contraband

Yes, Osama Bin Ladin was on the CIA payroll. Yes, we did give him tons of money and support.

Sometimes, I wonder why I even bother posting. In one ear, out the other. I may just hide in the weeds and watch. That way I can save my energy for other things.

Most people in the mideast didn't even know who Bin Laden was until after 9/11. We need a boogie man. American's attention spans are short...people don't research or pay attention. Americans believe that they come all the way over here to commit suicide and kill innocents because they hate our freedoms.

That much is true. I feel better now.

If this is true, I am hoping and praying that it will be brought to the public's attention. I hope Wikileaks or anyone on the inside will expose this. Show the American people the hypocrisy of our evil and corrupt foreign policy.

Sigh. There's really nothing for anyone on the inside to 'expose' in this particular matter, except maybe Castro's creeping senility.

Does anyone think the remaining unreleased Wikileaks documents may reveal that 9/11 may be a false flag? Or that Bin Laden is still a CIA operative? Their latest release may be a prelude to something like this since it talks about the United State's export of terrorism. If something like this is released, there could possibly be a revolution in this country.

Sigh again. Their latest 'release' was a wargaming sort of document from Red Cell. Red Cell is fairly old, and is sort of like the CIA's version of OPFORS. They come up with 'what-ifs', and play them out as thought experiments. This latest document is a 'what-if' of what could be potential ramifications of foreign governments being influenced by the perceptions of those who believe that the US government is exporting terrorism. The document clearly states that that impression could be fostered by US citizens going abroad in the individual pursuit of foreign policy, in a terroristic manner. It in no way implicates the US government in such dealings.

It's just not the smoking gun you're looking for, but if I were you, I'd keep looking.

[edit on 2010/8/27 by nenothtu]

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

SKL, You appear to be confusing a war with an operation within that war, in the same way that many conflate bin Laden to equate with Afghanistan.

Do not confuse my "confusion" with speaking of historical precedents.

The House of Saud was nice and cozy with Mohammed bin Laden, Osama bin Laden's father, building and rebuilding Saudi Arabia.

And yes, Operation Cyclone was an operation, within a Covert War.

A surrogate war, wherein the C.I.A. wanted deniability, against the Russian Bear.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Operation Cyclone was a CIA Op to arm, train and fund Afghani mijahideen. It was run for the most part out of Peshawar, with some cross-border ops for gathering intel, and some training in country. Most of the materiel was delivered to muj agents in Pakistan, (notably in the still problematic Waziristan area), and taken across the fence by muj, on things sometimes as mundane as donkey trains.

I do know the history, but due to the topic, I was not going off topic.

Which is why I referenced those books to anyone wanting to explore more about O.B.L.

Fidel Castro referencing anyone is a C.I.A. Agent or Asset is a kettle calling the pot black.

Originally posted by nenothtu
A lot of the funding was laundered through the Saudis and Pakistani ISI, which was also problematic. ISI skimmed more than their share, and claimed more power and control than they really had a right to. CIA was, for the most part, content to let that slide, as part of the plausible deniability of the op, which turned out in the end not to have been all that plausible OR deniable.

Yes, the Saudi's and Pakistani Government, and Intelligence Organizations were bluffing.

Puffing up their chests, if you will, claiming something so their graft could kick in.

Part of the very real problem with using a foreign government is there inbred corruption.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Bin Laden was not an Afghani Muj, he was a foreigner (there were lots of foreign muj in those days). He was in control of a small contingent of other foreigners, and brought his own money (and even some equipment - construction equipment). He actually refused any funding that he thought may have had it's origin in America as 'tainted'. For the most part, he provided his own funding. He spent some time around Jalalbad, and actually participated in the 'improvements' to the cave complexes in and around Tora Bora and the Milawa Valley which gave the Soviets such headaches, and which the US seems to have rolled right over.

I do know Osama bin Laden had his own money, ultimately, a lot of it came from Mohammed bin Laden.

Of course, he did go raising funds, for his terrorism-oriented "business model".

Just as much as the "Bin Laden" family actually built U.S. bases overseas.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I reckon what I'm trying to say is that bin Laden WAS there, but was not Afghani muj, nor was he Pakistani muj which the ISI formed the core of the Taliban from. He was 'in' the war ( mostly directing, financing, and construction, not so much actually getting his hands dirty with fighting), but shied away from Operation Cyclone, and tried to pull his own freight. The issues of bin Laden and Operation Cyclone are two entirely different issues, and to a degree, the Taliban and Cyclone were separate issues as well, but in the latter case there was some indirect bleed through due to ISI involvement.

[edit on 2010/8/27 by nenothtu]

I think we both know Osama bin Laden has much more sway in Afghanistan though.

While we're both talking about the same things, and along the same lines, I am more curious as to why Fidel Castro is opening his big mouth, again, and this time about someone like Osama bin Laden, specifically why he's claiming he is a C.I.A. Agent.

Muddying the waters?

Vying for attention?

Just ranting before he dies?

With Castro anything is possible.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
I am more curious as to why Fidel Castro is opening his big mouth, again, and this time about someone like Osama bin Laden, specifically why he's claiming he is a C.I.A. Agent.

Muddying the waters?

Vying for attention?

Just ranting before he dies?

With Castro anything is possible.

His handlers are just as delusional as his senility is bad.
I even call out the Cubans on these supposed [Fidel Castro] statements.

The man is a relic, a old cold war delusional dinosaur. His side lost and he still sees himself as a global player. Or those who change his manpons want to portray to the world that he still is.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Agreed.

Castro is a Cold War relic.

I have zero doubt of that.

But it is curious why he rants about this but ignored a chance to demonize America, for the most part, because of the B.P. Deepwater Horizon Disaster.

Think about it for a moment where he had a perfect platform if you will, pun intended, where he could verbally harass and or harangue Barack Obama, yet he let that pass and picks this piece of information to harass the U.S.?

Odd.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

SKL, An impeccable analysis as always.

Do not confuse my "confusion" with speaking of historical precedents.

The House of Saud was nice and cozy with Mohammed bin Laden, Osama bin Laden's father, building and rebuilding Saudi Arabia.

And yes, Operation Cyclone was an operation, within a Covert War.

A surrogate war, wherein the C.I.A. wanted deniability, against the Russian Bear.

That's absolutely so, but it looked to me like several posters were insinuating (and some outright claiming) that bin Laden WAS/IS a CIA agent. Even though what you say is absolutely so, it doesn't go far enough to support their thesis in that matter.

Fidel Castro referencing anyone is a C.I.A. Agent or Asset is a kettle calling the pot black.

And that cuts pretty close to the bone of the matter. Why are folks so willing to fall hook, line, and sinker for the ravings of one CIA agent over another? The answer lies in how strongly it supports their thesis. In this case, the rantings of one alleged agent are to be preferred against another alleged agent because those rants (unsupported, I might add) have a direct bearing on what they WANT to believe about an entire agency, and by extension the government fostering that agency.

To be honest with you, I firmly believe that if they knew of the real dealings of the CIA, their toenails would curl right up, and they would wonder why they allowed themselves to be set to chasing smoke and mirrors for so long when there really ARE things that they would consider 'dirty' that have gone on, things that would give them some measure of justification for their gripes.

Yes, the Saudi's and Pakistani Government, and Intelligence Organizations were bluffing.

Puffing up their chests, if you will, claiming something so their graft could kick in.

Part of the very real problem with using a foreign government is there inbred corruption.

The Saudis weren't skimming off all that much before they'd send it on to the ISI, but man, the ISI were like kids at a Christmas party! That WAS the usual route: US to Saudi to Pakistani ISI to the muj or their agents. I think that probably everyone along the way pinched off a piece of dough, but the ISI grabbed handfulls. Along with that, ISI has had a long standing interest in influencing the balance of power in that area. The combination was explosive, and the folks who are claiming that we did all this for bin Laden aren't looking at the real culprits or chain of events.

In a round about way, they may be right, but the arrive at the wrong end product. The ISI has done what they've done with money pinched off from us, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that they are doing precisely the same thing right now. When all of this blows over or blows up, there will be something like a "Taliban Mark II" to deal with. I have to wonder who's turn it will be to deal with that situation there, and which nondescript individual who is in the game at the moment will be the next scapegoat like bin Laden is this time.

I do know Osama bin Laden had his own money, ultimately, a lot of it came from Mohammed bin Laden.

Of course, he did go raising funds, for his terrorism-oriented "business model".

Just as much as the "Bin Laden" family actually built U.S. bases overseas.

All too true, but still it doesn't provide the direct linkage that people seek. Personally, I'm of the opinion that someone has set that line of inquiry into motion to obfuscate the REAL facts, so that no one discovers them. Everyone has been set to chasing bin Laden's CIA shadow, which they will never find, and all the while the band is playing on.

I think we both know Osama bin Laden has much more sway in Afghanistan though.

He does NOW, because of how he chummed up with the Taliban, but not so much back then, except in a regional way. He did a lot of good for the folks wherever he went, and more or less 'bought' their support through his projects, gaining a good name among them regionally.

After the war, and then even later as the Taliban was forming up, he found common cause (fundamentalism) with them, and used his previous sway to ingratiate himself with the Taliban, thus ending up with even more power and influence than before.

While we're both talking about the same things, and along the same lines, I am more curious as to why Fidel Castro is opening his big mouth, again, and this time about someone like Osama bin Laden, specifically why he's claiming he is a C.I.A. Agent.

Muddying the waters?

Vying for attention?

Just ranting before he dies?

With Castro anything is possible.

I've never trusted Castro that much, and I don't think he's just trying to get anything at all off of his chest before he dies. Attention probably doesn't hold as much appeal for him now as it once did. I'd have to assess it as muddying the waters, and trying to give this futile line of inquiry a new boost.

He's protecting someone else, and most likely doing it at their bidding. He's trying to make sure the bloodhounds stay off of the right trail.

[edit on 2010/8/27 by nenothtu]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

While we're both talking about the same things, and along the same lines, I am more curious as to why Fidel Castro is opening his big mouth, again, and this time about someone like Osama bin Laden, specifically why he's claiming he is a C.I.A. Agent.

Castro is in a rather precarious political situation that he isn't used to being in on the Island.

He turned most of the day to day power of running the Island over to his brother 2 years ago when he first became ill.

Most people including possibly Fidel himself did not anticipate Fidel recovering or ever being able to play a true active role in governance again.

He has though recovered and while he continues to hold the most important title in the Government his brother has entrenched himself in the day to day operations of the Islands and installed a lot of his own people in key positions.

So Fidel is worried now, as Raul has hinted to the people that economic reforms are forthcoming that entail opening up to foreign entities that Fidel would prefer to keep out of the Island.

So Fidel fully recovered is using his position of supreme power to force Raul to put those things on hold.

This though is bound to dissapoint the people and hurt Fidel's popularity so he has to now repaint the powers that Cuba would crawl in bed with for economic reform as dangerous and snake like ones that can't be trustred, in a bid to seduce the people away from wanting economic reforms and possibly throwing their support behind Raul instead of him in a Power Struggle.

Of course it's trickier than that because he can't tarnish Raul in the process since ultimately if he does they both might be swept out of power.

At the same time Obama is publicly appealing to American Cubans to support ending the embargo, which of course is the kind of external pressure that gives a lot of Cubans internally hope within Cuba that economic reform is possible.

Cuban Americans have a lot of money and political power, and would in fact invest heavily in the Island if Fidel and Raul were gone and there were mechanisms to protect those investments.

Fidel has little choice now but to go back to demonizing America for the domestic audience.





[edit on 27/8/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

Originally posted by nenothtu
SKL, An impeccable analysis as always.

And to you as well, nenothtu.

Originally posted by nenothtu
That's absolutely so, but it looked to me like several posters were insinuating (and some outright claiming) that bin Laden WAS/IS a CIA agent. Even though what you say is absolutely so, it doesn't go far enough to support their thesis in that matter.

Sure, several people are claiming that, specifically, I am not however.

There are no absolutes in the Intelligence Industry.

I'm not supporting anyone else's claims than my own and even then I'm limiting the information I pass on, because I'm just not stupid, not that you or anyone else is implying that, I'm stating it because I hold back a lot more on ATS.

Originally posted by nenothtu
And that cuts pretty close to the bone of the matter. Why are folks so willing to fall hook, line, and sinker for the ravings of one CIA agent over another? The answer lies in how strongly it supports their thesis. In this case, the rantings of one alleged agent are to be preferred against another alleged agent because those rants (unsupported, I might add) have a direct bearing on what they WANT to believe about an entire agency, and by extension the government fostering that agency.

Because they want to believe in something even if it's potentially another lie?

Everything is pretty much a wash as far as I'm concerned.

One "Agent" outs another "Agent" is silly.

This isn't Spy vs. Spy nor Mad Magazine.

Originally posted by nenothtu
To be honest with you, I firmly believe that if they knew of the real dealings of the CIA, their toenails would curl right up, and they would wonder why they allowed themselves to be set to chasing smoke and mirrors for so long when there really ARE things that they would consider 'dirty' that have gone on, things that would give them some measure of justification for their gripes.

Agreed.

If Americans knew even 1% of what our Government does in our name?

There would be lynchings for the next five decades.

I have yet to have broached more than 1/10 of 1% of what I know on ATS.

And I'm not planning on divulging that information any time soon.

About Castro, Osama bin Laden, or anyone else either, for that matter.

Originally posted by nenothtu
The Saudis weren't skimming off all that much before they'd send it on to the ISI, but man, the ISI were like kids at a Christmas party! That WAS the usual route: US to Saudi to Pakistani ISI to the muj or their agents. I think that probably everyone along the way pinched off a piece of dough, but the ISI grabbed handfulls. Along with that, ISI has had a long standing interest in influencing the balance of power in that area. The combination was explosive, and the folks who are claiming that we did all this for bin Laden aren't looking at the real culprits or chain of events.

Of course not.

They do not want a resolution.

What they want is endless funding.

Hence why 9/11 was a Covert Intelligence Fundraiser not a "Terrorist Event".

As far as I'm concerned and I can connect all the dots of every name affiliated with it.

Originally posted by nenothtu
In a round about way, they may be right, but the arrive at the wrong end product. The ISI has done what they've done with money pinched off from us, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that they are doing precisely the same thing right now. When all of this blows over or blows up, there will be something like a "Taliban Mark II" to deal with. I have to wonder who's turn it will be to deal with that situation there, and which nondescript individual who is in the game at the moment will be the next scapegoat like bin Laden is this time.

You mean who is the next Puppet Dictator and or Boogeyman?

Sounds like a potential for my next thread.

A Where's Waldo of Puppet Dictators if you will.

Originally posted by nenothtu
All too true, but still it doesn't provide the direct linkage that people seek. Personally, I'm of the opinion that someone has set that line of inquiry into motion to obfuscate the REAL facts, so that no one discovers them. Everyone has been set to chasing bin Laden's CIA shadow, which they will never find, and all the while the band is playing on.

Only if people are lazy and speculate without doing their homework.

All of the information is out there to be found.

As long as someone is patient and methodical.

Originally posted by nenothtu
He does NOW, because of how he chummed up with the Taliban, but not so much back then, except in a regional way. He did a lot of good for the folks wherever he went, and more or less 'bought' their support through his projects, gaining a good name among them regionally.

Of course.

Any good tactician knows the Hearts and Minds mantra.

Good will buys secret hiding places and caches for weaponry.

Originally posted by nenothtu
After the war, and then even later as the Taliban was forming up, he found common cause (fundamentalism) with them, and used his previous sway to ingratiate himself with the Taliban, thus ending up with even more power and influence than before.

A regular politician of sorts if you ask me.

Originally posted by nenothtu
I've never trusted Castro that much, and I don't think he's just trying to get anything at all off of his chest before he dies. Attention probably doesn't hold as much appeal for him now as it once did. I'd have to assess it as muddying the waters, and trying to give this futile line of inquiry a new boost.

He's protecting someone else, and most likely doing it at their bidding. He's trying to make sure the bloodhounds stay off of the right trail.

Do you think I've ever trusted Castro?

Hell no.

I realize his origins and I commend him for seeing the assassination plots, but that's just a tactician admiring tactical use of strategy, nothing more, nothing less.

I do not admire the man and I see Puppet Dictators as inherently evil.

Just as evil as those putting them into power.

Fraud compounding fraud.

All for funding.

Money just is not that important to me nor is power as trust in Government.

Which I have zero.

I wonder how many people have said before,

"If Bin Laden is still a CIA asset why haven't any of our enemies pointed it out yet?"


Just another reminder that, despite the stupidity of Donald Rumsfeld's use of the phrase to justify the invasion of Iraq, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Old Fidel could have been sitting on this opinion for years and just never spoke up because he didn't feel like being further demonized by US media. It's not like they don't take every opportunity to smear him anyway, and I'm sure he realizes that.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by AquariusDescending]

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

Castro is in a rather precarious political situation that he isn't used to being in on the Island.

He turned most of the day to day power of running the Island over to his brother 2 years ago when he first became ill.

Most people including possibly Fidel himself did not anticipate Fidel recovering or ever being able to play a true active role in governance again.

They misjudged the man then obviously.

That sure is a bad pattern people get in with Castro.

Misjudging him.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
He has though recovered and while he continues to hold the most important title in the Government his brother has entrenched himself in the day to day operations of the Islands and installed a lot of his own people in key positions.

So Fidel is worried now, as Raul has hinted to the people that economic reforms are forthcoming that entail opening up to foreign entities that Fidel would prefer to keep out of the Island.

So Fidel fully recovered is using his position of supreme power to force Raul to put those things on hold.

What you're saying is Castro is staging a coup d'état on his brother?

I find that quite funny.

Plausible too.

Considering Cuba is an ally of Venezuela I wonder where Chavez fits in.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
This though is bound to dissapoint the people and hurt Fidel's popularity so he has to now repaint the powers that Cuba would crawl in bed with for economic reform as dangerous and snake like ones that can't be trustred, in a bid to seduce the people away from wanting economic reforms and possibly throwing their support behind Raul instead of him in a Power Struggle.

Well, this is of course, dependent upon Fidel's health.

He is going to need to come out strong or Raul will lay waste with him.

Pointing towards a glorious past while simultaneously putting Fidel out to pasture.

I wonder if Fidel has one or two more dirty tricks up his sleeve.

I have no doubt he would slit his own brothers throat.

Or have someone else do it for him.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Of course it's trickier than that because he can't tarnish Raul in the process since ultimately if he does they both might be swept out of power.

And therein lies the rub as the bard tells us.

Castro could take out Castro thereby not only overthrowing his own brother, but taking himself out, due to his willingness to take on family.

This means a cut-out and or deniability will be a factor in Fidel's choices with Raul.

Is Fidel Castro's claiming Osama bin Laden is C.I.A. just to lure Raul Castro into a trap?

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
At the same time Obama is publicly appealing to American Cubans to support ending the embargo, which of course is the kind of external pressure that gives a lot of Cubans internally hope within Cuba that economic reform is possible.

And will cause our Government to lose face either way.

Support Castro, lose face, with the babyboomers and Cold War relics.

Decry Castro, and lose face, because he's an old man almost out to pasture.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Cuban Americans have a lot of money and political power, and would in fact invest heavily in the Island if Fidel and Raul were gone and there were mechanisms to protect those investments.

History repeats itself yet again in Cuba.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Fidel has little choice now but to go back to demonizing America for the domestic audience.

[edit on 27/8/10 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]

But why did he miss out or ignore the Deepwater Horizon incident?

Is Fidel Castro slipping?

That was the perfect event to use as a catalyst to bitch about Obama.

Especially considering the oil could have been pushed around to Cuba.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

They misjudged the man then obviously.

That sure is a bad pattern people get in with Castro.

Misjudging him.

Castro has long been a master at defeating coups against him by actually creating the circumstances and supporting the coups through cut outs to see who they ensnare.

It is entirely possible he was not even ill to begin with and it was all an elaborate ploy to draw out his enemies through Raul.

What you're saying is Castro is staging a coup d'état on his brother?

I find that quite funny.

Plausible too.

Considering Cuba is an ally of Venezuela I wonder where Chavez fits in.

Castro has probably selected a younger successor someone similiar to Chavez who can carry on his legacy for decades.

Raul is just a few years younger than him, and by leaving power to Raul then it falls on Raul to preserve the legacy of the Revolution. It is doubtful Fidel wants his legacy to be in Raul's hands in that fashion.

So he may have in fact tricked Raul to bring all his own network out into the open and install them in government so he can identify them all and eliminate them and his brother along with them to name a younger successor that he feels will carry on in his tradition.

Well, this is of course, dependent upon Fidel's health.

He is going to need to come out strong or Raul will lay waste with him.

Pointing towards a glorious past while simultaneously putting Fidel out to pasture.

I wonder if Fidel has one or two more dirty tricks up his sleeve.

I have no doubt he would slit his own brothers throat.

Or have someone else do it for him.

There is a reason Fidel's sister and daughter chose to move to Miami.

Fidel is increasingly reclusive and paranoid, he is nearing the end of his race and he knows it.

In other words the revolution is never over, until he dies, and installs a successor he feels comfortable can carry on the legacy long into the future.

In his recent public appearances Raul has been along side Fidel, and while Fidel proclaims they are united in policy, Raul has hardly spoken more than a handful of words at each public appearance with Fidel doing most of the talking.

Raul probably has brought everyone out of of the shadows in his own network to protect himself once Fidel did step aside so Fidel basically has them all exposed now where he wants them to be.

The beauty of leaving a dictatorship behind to a younger agressive career military man is that its easy enough for them to use their own network to eliminate other networks within the Officer Core come the witching hour.

Amazingly as they do, they expose their own Network so Fidel basically knows who to keep an eye on next.

He's stayed in power a very long time this way.

And therein lies the rub as the bard tells us.

Castro could take out Castro thereby not only overthrowing his own brother, but taking himself out, due to his willingness to take on family.

This means a cut-out and or deniability will be a factor in Fidel's choices with Raul.

Is Fidel Castro's claiming Osama bin Laden is C.I.A. just to lure Raul Castor into a trap?

Well one thing is for sure if Osama Bin Laden could be C.I.A. well then so too could Raul!

Ultimately though I think Raul will just die suddenly of some medical condition.

His henchmen rounded up in the night and executed against some wall and dumped in a trench, and the local newspapers not saying a word.

Cuban politics as usual.

And will cause our Government to lose face either way.

Support Castro, lose face, with the babyboomers and Cold War relics.

Decry Castro, and lose face, because he's an old man almost out to pasture.

The Cubans who grew up under communism that now live in the U.S. are really economic refugees and not political ones. The older ones are political refugees.

While the economic refugees are not rabid anti-Fidel they are largely dependent on the Exile Community here to help them get situated in America and then beholden to it moving forward.

If you have ever seen fresh arrivals from Cuba it's pretty heartbreaking, most of them are really skin and bones from malnourishment.

Six months to a year later they look like completely different human beings.

Older Cubans are as passionate about maintaining the embargo as American Jews are in supporting Israel.

Cut ranks and a lot of doors close for you.

History repeats itself yet again in Cuba.

Be a shame to loose that lease on Gitmo!

I imagine something will be worked out by that point in time.

But why did he miss out or ignore the Deepwater Horizon incident?

I am sure Fidel quietly took a boatload of petro dollars off of BP and kept it on the down low.

He needs dollars desperately and was probably willing to settle quietly and cheap.

Is Fidel Castro slipping?

I wouldn't place a bet against him, would you?

That was the perfect event to use as a catalyst to bitch about Obama.

Better event not to and pick up some much needed hard currency reserves through back channels.

Especially considering the oil could have been pushed around to Cuba.

Lot's more oil out there than people think and corexit too!

reply to post by lynxlynx


Thank you. S&F,

YEA! wikileaks, BRAVO Assange.

I do so want ALL the truth to come out.

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas

Originally posted by nenothtu
And that cuts pretty close to the bone of the matter. Why are folks so willing to fall hook, line, and sinker for the ravings of one CIA agent over another? The answer lies in how strongly it supports their thesis. In this case, the rantings of one alleged agent are to be preferred against another alleged agent because those rants (unsupported, I might add) have a direct bearing on what they WANT to believe about an entire agency, and by extension the government fostering that agency.

Because they want to believe in something even if it's potentially another lie?

Everything is pretty much a wash as far as I'm concerned.

One "Agent" outs another "Agent" is silly.

This isn't Spy vs. Spy nor Mad Magazine.

I can't honestly think of a single case where one spy has outed another, especially from the same agency. I can think of a couple of cases where politicians have outed spies, even their own, for political points. In a couple of the more entertaining ones, they've gone so far as to 'out' a 'spy' who was nothing of the sort, and then sat back just to watch the confusion and fun. In one case I can think of, an analyst was 'outed' as a field agent.

Nearly any time a politician does it, though, it's for political points, and so should be immediately suspect.

Spies don't out spies for a number of very good reasons. If such becomes problematic, it usually gets 'handled' in-house. You already know that. I just pointed that out for the readers of the thread, some of whom may NOT know that.

I have yet to have broached more than 1/10 of 1% of what I know on ATS.

And I'm not planning on divulging that information any time soon.

About Castro, Osama bin Laden, or anyone else either, for that matter.

That will doubtless make some folks sleep better at night.

Originally posted by nenothtu
In a round about way, they may be right, but the arrive at the wrong end product. The ISI has done what they've done with money pinched off from us, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that they are doing precisely the same thing right now. When all of this blows over or blows up, there will be something like a "Taliban Mark II" to deal with. I have to wonder who's turn it will be to deal with that situation there, and which nondescript individual who is in the game at the moment will be the next scapegoat like bin Laden is this time.

You mean who is the next Puppet Dictator and or Boogeyman?

Sounds like a potential for my next thread.

A Where's Waldo of Puppet Dictators if you will.

It will be interesting to see if you can identify him or her ahead of their demonzation!

Originally posted by nenothtu
After the war, and then even later as the Taliban was forming up, he found common cause (fundamentalism) with them, and used his previous sway to ingratiate himself with the Taliban, thus ending up with even more power and influence than before.

A regular politician of sorts if you ask me.

Precisely. I've ALWAYS maintained that, even as far as AQ goes, bin Laden is just a mouthpiece, a public face. Al-Zawahiri, I think, does more of the actual behind the scenes work of pulling it all together and running it.

Do you think I've ever trusted Castro?

Hell no.

I realize his origins and I commend him for seeing the assassination plots, but that's just a tactician admiring tactical use of strategy, nothing more, nothing less.

I do not admire the man and I see Puppet Dictators as inherently evil.

Just as evil as those putting them into power.

Fraud compounding fraud.

All for funding.

Money just is not that important to me nor is power as trust in Government.

Which I have zero.

Castro started out as a puppet, and has played the part for 50 years. He's STILL playing the part, and will likely do so until he dies.

That, sir, is why I believe he has managed to live to such a ripe old age.

As far as trust in government goes, I have none either, for good cause. It rankles a bit, however, when I see some folks on here pushing things to unwarranted extremes. Reality is bad enough as is. What they do with these wild goose chases is attempt to put others off the trail. What they do by going to extremes is to make the entire question laughable, and by extension any associated questions.

In that way, they can actually STOP a lot of questions before they're even asked, and certainly keep them from gaining traction if they ARE asked.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
reply to post by SpartanKingLeonidas

 

Castro has long been a master at defeating coups against him by actually creating the circumstances and supporting the coups through cut outs to see who they ensnare.

It is entirely possible he was not even ill to begin with and it was all an elaborate ploy to draw out his enemies through Raul.

Any good tactician knows you have to hedge your bets, control the outcomes, and never waste a disaster, that is simply politics and warfare.

With chaos comes an element of control one has if they are smart.

This is how Castro operates as many dictators do, historically and currently.

The Ancient Romans and Ancient Greeks come to mind here.

I did suspect Castro was faking from the first time I heard Raul was stepping up.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Castro has probably selected a younger successor someone similiar to Chavez who can carry on his legacy for decades.

Raul is just a few years younger than him, and by leaving power to Raul then it falls on Raul to preserve the legacy of the Revolution. It is doubtful Fidel wants his legacy to be in Raul's hands in that fashion.

So he may have in fact tricked Raul to bring all his own network out into the open and install them in government so he can identify them all and eliminate them and his brother along with them to name a younger successor that he feels will carry on in his tradition.

One final coup d'état before taking on the man in horns with the pitchfork.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
There is a reason Fidel's sister and daughter chose to move to Miami.

Fidel is increasingly reclusive and paranoid, he is nearing the end of his race and he knows it.

In other words the revolution is never over, until he dies, and installs a successor he feels comfortable can carry on the legacy long into the future.

In his recent public appearances Raul has been along side Fidel, and while Fidel proclaims they are united in policy, Raul has hardly spoken more than a handful of words at each public appearance with Fidel doing most of the talking.

Raul probably has brought everyone out of of the shadows in his own network to protect himself once Fidel did step aside so Fidel basically has them all exposed now where he wants them to be.

The beauty of leaving a dictatorship behind to a younger agressive career military man is that its easy enough for them to use their own network to eliminate other networks within the Officer Core come the witching hour.

Amazingly as they do, they expose their own Network so Fidel basically knows who to keep an eye on next.

He's stayed in power a very long time this way.

Of course.

Fidel Castro is no fool.

To make your enemy do half your work for you is the best strategy.

Always use your enemies weapons against them first.

Before ever raising your sword or shield.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Well one thing is for sure if Osama Bin Laden could be C.I.A. well then so too could Raul!

Ultimately though I think Raul will just die suddenly of some medical condition.

His henchmen rounded up in the night and executed against some wall and dumped in a trench, and the local newspapers not saying a word.

Cuban politics as usual.

Yes, a medical condition, or a "medical condition".

Maybe he will have a "brain hemorrhage".

You know the red dot from a mile off with a Barrett M82.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
The Cubans who grew up under communism that now live in the U.S. are really economic refugees and not political ones. The older ones are political refugees.

While the economic refugees are not rabid anti-Fidel they are largely dependent on the Exile Community here to help them get situated in America and then beholden to it moving forward.

If you have ever seen fresh arrivals from Cuba it's pretty heartbreaking, most of them are really skin and bones from malnourishment.

Six months to a year later they look like completely different human beings.

Older Cubans are as passionate about maintaining the embargo as American Jews are in supporting Israel.

Cut ranks and a lot of doors close for you.

Of this I have no doubt.

I think our definition of heartbreaking differs though.

I do not see a boat full of Cubans washing up on our shore as heartbreaking.

I see them as shark-bait.

Go South not North from Cuba.

Sorry, I'm not a fan of "Illegal Immigrants", no matter the reason.

Color me heartless.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Be a shame to loose that lease on Gitmo!

I imagine something will be worked out by that point in time.

There's no way we're ever going to lose that lease on Guantanamo Bay.

No way, no how, not going to happen, just as it will never close.

Oh sure, on paper, it might close, that just means it will become a Secret Prison.

Deniability.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I am sure Fidel quietly took a boatload of petro dollars off of BP and kept it on the down low.

He needs dollars desperately and was probably willing to settle quietly and cheap.

Well, considering Chavez forgave Castro a lot of debt, a few years back that makes sense.

And Chavez requested Russia to forgive Castro as well.

Castro owes Chavez mucho.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
I wouldn't place a bet against him, would you?

Only if it was myself waging war against him personally.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Better event not to and pick up some much needed hard currency reserves through back channels.

Of course.

Plus gaining more sway with a dictator.

Them bastards as BP PLC sure are smart.

Originally posted by ProtoplasmicTraveler
Lot's more oil out there than people think and corexit too!

Yep.

That is a definite.

Notice the silence after the well was capped.

It has yet to survive a hurricane coming through.

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by lynxlynx

 

Thank you. S&F,

YEA! wikileaks, BRAVO Assange.

I do so want ALL the truth to come out.

Assange is a Hero .... PERIOD
he is a REAL patriot
far from being a traitor
the truth always prevail at the end
he did a great service to the American nation by displaying the truth
from a good marine ....another REAL and Patriotic HEROOOO
this truth will save lifes in the futur ..
ALL HAIL ASSANGE


ASSANGE

Originally posted by SpartanKingLeonidas
That Castro might say this is sort of silly considering America put him into power.

Huh? I always thought that the United States (and Truman and Eisenhower) supported the Batista regime until the march on Havana.

Originally posted by nenothtu

I can't honestly think of a single case where one spy has outed another, especially from the same agency. I can think of a couple of cases where politicians have outed spies, even their own, for political points. In a couple of the more entertaining ones, they've gone so far as to 'out' a 'spy' who was nothing of the sort, and then sat back just to watch the confusion and fun. In one case I can think of, an analyst was 'outed' as a field agent.

Nearly any time a politician does it, though, it's for political points, and so should be immediately suspect.

Spies don't out spies for a number of very good reasons. If such becomes problematic, it usually gets 'handled' in-house. You already know that. I just pointed that out for the readers of the thread, some of whom may NOT know that.

Yes, the halls of Congress has gotten many spies outed, Washington D.C. leaks like a sieve.

Of course, some leaks are done just to embarass others, some are accidents.

Still, the Congressional seal, should have a sieve on it.

Originally posted by nenothtu
That will doubtless make some folks sleep better at night.

Not necessarily.

Information is power.

And that will make those people squirm about me for a while.

Originally posted by nenothtu
It will be interesting to see if you can identify him or her ahead of their demonzation!

I pick South America.

Who it will be is another question.

I think I will let the ATS'ers figure it out but give some history and precedents.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Precisely. I've ALWAYS maintained that, even as far as AQ goes, bin Laden is just a mouthpiece, a public face. Al-Zawahiri, I think, does more of the actual behind the scenes work of pulling it all together and running it.

Having the local man in there guarantees foreigners are kept out.

Originally posted by nenothtu
Castro started out as a puppet, and has played the part for 50 years. He's STILL playing the part, and will likely do so until he dies.

That, sir, is why I believe he has managed to live to such a ripe old age.

As far as trust in government goes, I have none either, for good cause. It rankles a bit, however, when I see some folks on here pushing things to unwarranted extremes. Reality is bad enough as is. What they do with these wild goose chases is attempt to put others off the trail. What they do by going to extremes is to make the entire question laughable, and by extension any associated questions.

In that way, they can actually STOP a lot of questions before they're even asked, and certainly keep them from gaining traction if they ARE asked.

Well, compounding this is when people try to slant the whole opposite direction.

The story and or event leans left, they lean right, the cover-up happens by a certain party, they decry that party, instead of looking from both sides.

This is why I am not a "left-wing" nor "right-wing" supporter.

I am a Centrist.

As well neither am I a Republican nor a Democrat,

But a registered Indeepdent.

I agree, reality sucks as it is, with our Government doing dirty, nasty, and criminal actions in our name, while it is not the Government itself, but those people within certain factions, it still represents our Government as a whole.

And the ripples make huge waves eventually.

Some people just toe the party line echoing the same partisan rhetoric.

I often wonder if those people really believe that or are merely parroting.

I enjoy thinking for myself.

Without strings attached.

Whereas Castro played his part and quite well I would hate the Puppet Dictatorship.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by SpartanKingLeonidas]

This doesn't surprise me in the least bit and further solidifies my reasons why I do not trust the United States Government in any way shape or form.

Well Fidel and Brzezinski, Carters National Security Adviser, the guy who admitted in his book that he created Bin laden, actually agree on something, imagine that...

Maybe there is common ground for peace in the world after all...

Too bad most people would rather watch TV then read a book.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by Danbones]

AL Qaeda translated means, "The Toilet". OBL's CIA name is Tim Osman.
Why would a group call themselfs, the toilet. There's a poker player who calls himself, The Toilet, this must be because he plays shiite hands and wins. I'm really glad Castro is voicing his opinion about the shadow government. This must mean he's not in the loop.

Everyone works for the CIA ! Obama has for ages ! Osama has for many years ! Sadam was terminated because he wasnt needed any longer... Its called New World Order agenda...