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Schizophrenia & Magical Thinking

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posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 05:45 PM
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When I try to think in terms of "New Age" and Magic, I often hit a roadblock. The borderline between real science and magic is similar to the borderline between reality and insanity. How do you make the distinction between schizophrenia and magical thinking? for instance, a charm that "carries" magical properties because of its appearance of pink and because you left it under the moon for so long. Isn't that more just telling yourself something, purely placebo effect and psychological?

How does one draw the line without proof? Is belief really that important? Is faith an end means to magic and miracles? Is this what Jesus talks about, belief vs. knowledge? But belief without proof is...what? It's a delusion, that's what it is...it's also a dream, an imagination.

See what I mean? What's the difference between a delusion and a miracle, magic, something that you perceive that doesn't necessarily exist. Is magic a form of illusion? Is magic simply creating a perception that is internal? Then, how do you explain shared delusions, or dreams? Is there a reason, or is the whole point that you need no proof to escape the laws of reality, that consciousness itself is a tool that you can use to bypass reality? And the naysayers just read too much?




posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 05:47 PM
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Is there a difference? I think you are making the case that there isn't. Do you believe in miracles and magic? If you don't then you've answer your own question. If you do, then let's establish that line....



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 06:08 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


If it provides comfort and meaning to an otherwise chaotic life and doesn't adversly affect another being ~ is there really any harm in magical thinking?

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 06:34 PM
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reply to post by kalinda
 


Schizophrenia and magical thinking are two very different things.

"Magical Thinking" is damaging because the person typically exists in a self-created fantasy world, which can prohibit reaching one's potential.

The general characteristic of a "magical thinker", is a fairly young, somewhat immature person, not always, but usually female, who is bored with their life. They start to believe they can "read minds", or their dreams come true and are prophetic, or they have strong "premonition" tendencies.

It is when the perceived ability is false, that the idea of magical thinking comes to light. Many practitioners believe the "Indigo" children are magical thinkers. As these folks mature, they generally leave the "magical thinking" behind.

Schizophrenia on the otherhand is a major mental illness. Hallucinations and thought disorders are present, and not simply dreamed up and wished for, as with the magical thinker.

[edit on 8/26/2010 by ladyinwaiting]



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 06:36 PM
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Magnets.... How do they work?!?!
and I don't want to talk to a scientist, they doin nothin but lyin and gettin me pissed - The infamous Shaggy 2 Dope!



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by GENERAL EYES

If it provides comfort and meaning to an otherwise chaotic life and doesn't adversly affect another being ~ is there really any harm in magical thinking?


Now i appreciate your perspective , but i have since been persuaded that out of this `magical realm`- this protected reservation where wild ideas roam , comes fanaticism .
It hides amongst the gentler playful delusions .




Many people except the idea that God talks to people , but when a schizophrenic converses with imaginary people- well they are not so excepting.




(forgive my tired mind
... ATS in the AM )



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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reply to post by GENERAL EYES
 


other than generations of such circle jerking creating a glass ceiling where anyone who taps on it is murdered.

thats happened ALOT thoughout history...



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 07:42 PM
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Originally posted by kalinda
"How do you make the distinction between schizophrenia and magical thinking?
' consciousness itself is a tool that you can use to bypass reality? And the naysayers just read too much? "




To many questions with few acceptable solutions.
As I am sure you are aware there are many types of schizophrenic disorders. The distinguishing characteristic between schizophrenia and Magical thinking, Magical thinking is embraced and nurtured by the individual espousing their *chosen* philosophy of life.
Book shelves abound with authors engaged in Magical thinking.
Schizophrenics............ well, not a venue they are able to engage.
Can conscious thought bypass reality ? It depends on how one defines reality. Metaphysics - Science of Mind, Affirmations, Conscious thought
effecting the outcome of ones definition of reality. " Oh Lord would ya buy me a Mercedes Benz " Janis Joplin . She got a Porsche ! Who knows.



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 08:02 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

reply to post by UmbraSumus
 


I suppose that's why (ultimately) a rational balance of realists and dreamers should always be in place...each to keep the other from going too far into the realm of their own respective madness.

I agree extremes on any single perspective are detrimental to not only the individual, but the overall collective as well if left unattended for too long.

reply to post by Wertdagf
 


Hence the disclaimer of and doesn't adversely affect other people.

What harm comes from a gifted child who builds and imagines a fantasy world within his sandcastle - where he or she is a kind and just ruler? Who knows where that inital train of thought may lead later in life?

Charities, Goodwill, Philanthropy...bad ass comic books or anime films...and the list goes on...and on.

(I understand what you're getting at though. It's a valid concern in regards to some personals and/or groups and the overall direction of their mystical agendas.)

Most conflicts of which you describe throughout the course of man have occured because two previously isolated schools of thought came into rather abrupt contact with one another, and both sides being stubborn, refused to integrate and/or see the similarities within their particular viewpoints/perspectives....but that's another debate in and of itself.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 08:38 PM
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Originally posted by GENERAL EYES



I suppose that's why (ultimately) a rational balance of realists and dreamers should always be in place...each to keep the other from going too far into the realm of their own respective madness.




It is quite a precarious balancing act . Our ability to imagine has been such a rich source of joy but also a dark breeding ground .

If you haven`t gotten around to watching either of these yet, i think you would enjoy them.






posted on Aug, 27 2010 @ 12:46 AM
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I suppose I will start with the disclaimer... I have a family history of schizophrenia.

I have never had any problem with understanding magical thinking. I fully accept the fact that, as Heilin so adequately put it, "any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indestinguishable(sp?) from magic".

I often wonder about those who cannot accept that there may be more to the universe than what our scientists have yet to discover.



posted on Aug, 27 2010 @ 12:02 PM
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Originally posted by rogerstigers
I suppose I will start with the disclaimer... I have a family history of schizophrenia.

I have never had any problem with understanding magical thinking. I fully accept the fact that, as Heilin so adequately put it, "any technology, sufficiently advanced, is indestinguishable(sp?) from magic".

I often wonder about those who cannot accept that there may be more to the universe than what our scientists have yet to discover.


My problem is that....how do you define either? And I feel the topic flew over people's heads a bit. I've read that people with schizophrenia have lower IQ's, talk to themselves, live in other worlds....but I don't understand...

Can you compare someone who founds their magical thinking in something that has no scientific back-up, as a hysteric?

Like Crowley for instance....or is there something we missed? As society? In general, about the nature of belief?

Just because you say it is so, doesn't mean it is....How do you know that someone is delusional? Just because You don't see what they see? Or could there be no proof if all we are doing is experiencing life subjectively?

Hive mind, group mentality...I notice it more these days.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 01:19 PM
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reply to post by kalinda
 


Interesting points. I'll admit that the subject of what is considered "sane" is a bit iffy to me. I have a very close friend who is documented as insane. She has severe post traumatic stress disorder, anxiety disorder, and a few other disorders. She is on medications that are illegal to even have in your possesion without a script. I have seen her in some bad times when she was bouncing from persona to persona rapidly and I have seen her in normal lucid and functional state.

I asked her about this subject. After bantering about what the actual question was, we came up with a few points:

1) Schizophrenia is an actual physicial neruological disorder. It can be measured and treated to correct (although not cure) the condition. There is also no connection between Schizophrenia and IQ.

2) A true mental health disorder is a bit more tenuous. One can have an affliciton of the mind that has no physical connection. These can be accomodated with drugs to a point of preventing the person from being a hazard to themselves or others, but a medicated person could still see "Harvey" in the corner.

3) As for "normals", belief is king. Christians believe in an invisible man in the sky that grants wishes based on some arbitraty lottery system. Myself, I believe that macrosystems of life forms can become sentient through their collectivism. There is no proof in either case, nor is it really needed because the belief in and of itself does not threaten ourselves or others.

So I guess the line in the sand according to conventional thinking between magical thinking and thinking based solely on fact (or strong cultural bias) is whether the magical thinkers are dangerous.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 01:59 PM
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As a magican I have seen the effects having done the training. It is reproducible but difficult to quantify. At it's simpliest, magic is a technique for sneaking past our barriers between the conscious and the uconscious to achieve results via the subconscious. Beyond that I would invoke Jung to explain the similariities between religion

Many of my fellow magicians are ultra sane and firmly rooted. Boundaries between magical thinking and real life are extremely important.
I hope this clarifies.



posted on Aug, 28 2010 @ 05:10 PM
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so maybe people should start stopping their antipsychotic meds and let the magic happen!



posted on Jan, 12 2011 @ 08:51 PM
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posted on Jan, 13 2011 @ 01:33 AM
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reply to post by kalinda
 


Well your OP could be split up into perhaps three different OPs. Anyway I still starred it. Someone once told me that magic is controlled schizophrenia. In someways I agree with it however there is a electromagnetic element to magic also.

I do not like the "newage" at all.


edit on 13-1-2011 by tiger5 because: (no reason given)



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