Are you a "Debunker" that denies the existence of an Official Story? Here's your sign

Well were going on almost 10 years on this debate and I dont think thiers ever going be a clear answer. I think its just going to linger and fester forever keeping us seperated and fighting amoung ourselves. Like everything else they throw into our faces. Divided we will always fall.

In my opinion and this is only mine I can't speak for others or even change thier minds. I can only present my thoughts and conclusions i've come to from doing my own research. Present my ideas and maybe it will spark something and those individuals will do some further research and think before they come to a quick conclusion.

Thiers really 3 things that stand out to me about the whole 9/11 event which makes me question it at all.

1. The towers comming down seemed to clean. It wasn't messy at all. You had two 110 story building get hit by passenger planes that hit each building. One impact area on each building both in different sections of the buildings. But they both came down so neat and tidy right in thier own footprints. The question is why didnt the tops of the towers just break off and fall to the ground leaving 2 half collapsed buildings. If thier was no foul play then wouldnt the towers have just cracked in half. If you account for gravity and if thier was a say air flow and/or pressure that made the fire burn hotter. Wouldn't the weakest part of the building be the point of impact? Wouldn't it take much longer for the 3 remaining sections of the building to start to weaken since in fact those section were free from any impact and only exposed to heat and fire. You've all played or heard of the game Jenga. Well when you play you always try to take blocks from the middle because you need to keep it stable. What happens when you start taking out the outer blocks? Stability is lost then gravity takes its toll and it TIPS over violently and chaotically blocks everywhere. It doesnt't crumble into dust and pancake down all nice and neat into a pile of easy.
Point is they came down to clean.

2. Building 7, oh building 7 why did you fall down so neat. No Plane hit you with impact you were taken by only fire and heat.
You didn't burn and crumble or show us your insides like most burning steel frame buildings do. Instead you fell into an neat pile of dust just like tower 1 and tower 2
Building 7, oh building 7 what sercrets did you know. It must have been juicy it made you implode.
Did something you behold have to do with gold or maybe some documents that were old. We will never know.
Building 7, oh building 7 your the first of your kind you are on your own. You are a first in all of history, your all alone.
You have accomplished a feat that has never been done or seen before. You trully make wonder and want to explore.

3. The one sketchy video of the plane or whatever hitting the Pentagon. Now come on folks This should be a big bulb burner right here. Seriously one blotchy vid are kidding me. That facility has to be stacked and is in facted stacked with cameras everywhere. You would think this would be the one place to find a whole S!@% load of vids with tons of shots with many different angles. But we get one blotchy dump of garbage video. Thiers other video's so why won't they disclose them already and put to rest least all the talk about it was missle that the Pentagon.

If the government wants me on thier side then show some creditbility and aleast realease the video's already. If everything is how they say it is then what is thier to hide.

SHOW THE VIDS... SHOW THE VIDS..... everyone now SHOW THE VIDS

Originally posted by Dark Ghost

- NIST report was conducted to establish how the buildings fell and what contributed to their collapse (it is a more specific examination of what was already mentioned in the Commission report).
- Government reports made by subsequent Governments would not be considered the OS because it was the Bush Administration in office at the time of the 9/11 attacks (the story given is the same now as it was on the day it happened anyway)
- MSM journalism is based on the MSM coverage of the event which makes it biased in support of the Official Story. (What was reported mirrors what was mentioned in the Commission Report).

Do you conclude that the NIST report is part of the OS?

You state that no report by any administration other than that of GWBush would be part of the OS. Would this be true in all cases?

What MSM journalism do you include? The reports trailed the journalism by years and the journalism didn't always coincide with the reports on all points. Why would you include the journalism at all?

Originally posted by hawaiinguy12

Originally posted by Snarf
are you a paranoid, delusional, fact-ignoring sociopath who thinks everything in existence is a plot by the United States government to steal your RV camper and radio transmission equipment?

Here's your tinfoil hat.


See? It goes both ways.

[edit on 26-8-2010 by Snarf]

So what you did here was basically avoid the legitimate questions I had and just jump to your preconceived notions that anyone who believes 9/11 was fishy is crazy. Good job! You are proven yourself to be another idiot on this tread!

Sooooo, there is an official story that a group of people hijacked planes and flew them into the WTC and the Pentagon - there ya have it, that's the official story. Do you believe that or (recent threads on ATS).....

There were no planes. all controlled explosions. The planes were a hologram.
There were no planes, a great big sphere hit the WTC, no one noticed it was a great big sphere and the planes were superimposed into the 'msm' footage because surely there would be no eye witnesses who would notice it was a sphere
There was a UFO that did this that incredibly looked just like an existing promo ad for the Sci Fi channel.

...... need I go on? Is there an approved alternative theory that all the alternative theorists will agree on so maybe it can be challenged to the same level the story a huge amount of eye witnesses is?

Former FBI agents (allegedly) have said they were in on a conspiracy. Former astronauts tell us there is a monolith on Mars. I have no reason to believe the later, I'm not sure why I have a reason to believe the former, especially as usually, most on this board wouldn't believe a word someone from that line of work says.

As someone on the inside during 911 I always find it interesting to see views of those from the outside. I will say only this, if the entire 911 attack was an inside job or faked or whatever other theory abounds then whomever did it also managed to trick all the American and allied intelligence agencies as well. And I mean they would have had to worked for years and have thousands of people in place to pull it off without anyone inside noticing. Now I know 10, 20 and 30 years down the road when FOIAs start to declassify and make public all the classified documents relating to 911 it will make no difference as those who persist in there own theories ignore all other evidence to contrary including but not limited to experts, the Gov, or other peoples whos theories do not equal their own. The reasons are varied. Some are making a buck praying on the gullible. Some just do not understand or misunderstand. Some do not believe things happen that can not be controled. Some have a politcal axe to grind. Some just want to feel special knowing or having figured something out they think everyone else it to stupid or brainwashed to. And some, sadly are just a little crazy. It is fasinating how so many people can take the same evidence, pick and choose what the want and then come up with so many diffetent theories on what happened. They can not even come to a concesus if planes were in fact involved.

Originally posted by Snarf
reply to post by Esoteric Teacher

 

but not everything is a conspiracy

i can only agree. no where did i say everything is a conspiracy. but, imo, the words we utilize to communicate with is also part of the conspiracy, therefore any communications between us is also a conspiracy.

...no matter how hard to try to be clever.

are you implying it is somehow a bad thing to try and be smart?

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by VirginiaRisesYetAgain

 

What a sheer act of desperation .

Contrary to your opinion , you are the one who is confused . You and yours are accusing the government of lies and cover-ups and crimes . As I have already told one of your bedfellows , it is YOU and YOURS that are bringing the case against the government , therefore , the burden of proof is YOUR responsibility .

And , I notice that you still refuse to address my last post to you in the other thread . What's wrong , you just can't argue with facts and choose to ignore it instead ?

This is pathetic .

the burden of proof is now, and always has been, on the on bringing the claims. the is the official government. the first trick 'they' pulled was to label themselves the irrefutable dispensers of truth, and anyone with anything contrary to say, heretics.

'they' are saying the hijackers, acting under jihad, commandeered planes and crashed them into buildings. that is the claim.

there is reason to believe otherwise.

A wise axiom states that "He who asserts must prove."

The "Official Story" WAS THE FIRST ASSERTION.

People questioned it, found SCIENTIFIC FLAWS with it, and the answers were incomplete and/or ignored and/or ridiculous and/or AGAINST THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.

Therefore, the (and I hate this term) "truthers" are really the DEBUNKERS, because they "debunked" the flim-flam OFFICIAL STORY. The "Debunkers" don't realize that they are the ones who BOUGHT INTO A CONSPIRACY.

"...it is YOU and YOURS that are bringing the case against the government, therefore, the burden of proof is YOUR responsibility."

The last time I checked, the government does not have any rights. The "burden of proof" of which you speak applies to the right of individuals to a "fair" trial (if there is such a thing), in that an individual is always presumed innocent until proven guilty.

This concept illustrates that if the individual is entitled to a presumption of innocence, there is an implied assumption of guilt, or abuse of power, on behalf of the state. The individual is given the benefit of the doubt, because the state cannot be trusted and is more often than not likely to abuse their assumed power.

You should never believe anything the government says. Nothing. If you do, you're a fool, and deserve exactly the government you have. Skepticism and criticism of the government is absolutely vital if you want to be free.

Those who seek to silence dissenting discourse are nothing but slaves--loyally servile to the very same people who oppress them.

Originally posted by something wicked
Sooooo, there is an official story that a group of people hijacked planes and flew them into the WTC and the Pentagon - there ya have it, that's the official story. Do you believe that or (recent threads on ATS).....

There were no planes. all controlled explosions. The planes were a hologram.
There were no planes, a great big sphere hit the WTC, no one noticed it was a great big sphere and the planes were superimposed into the 'msm' footage because surely there would be no eye witnesses who would notice it was a sphere
There was a UFO that did this that incredibly looked just like an existing promo ad for the Sci Fi channel.

...... need I go on? Is there an approved alternative theory that all the alternative theorists will agree on so maybe it can be challenged to the same level the story a huge amount of eye witnesses is?

I don't believe in holographic planes being superimposed on the new footage

neither do I believe aliens shot a beam that took down the towers

personally I believe that there is crazy speculation as to what happened, alot of which could be straight up disinformation with the intent of making any alternate theories seem crazy.

all I know is that the OS doesn't add up.

from the moment the buildings came down, before there were ANY reports, it looked like controlled demolition to me.

looking at the Pentagon, I can't fathom how a plane with 125' wingspan only made a hole 15' in diameter...
the engines are set 25' apart and weight almost a ton each, moving at over 500 miles per hour. there would have been substantial damage from the inital strike well beyond what we saw.

and where was the debris? tail, engines, wings??

Originally posted by Judge_Holden
reply to post by okbmd

 

Thanks for bringing common sense to this thread.

Being a Minarchist Libertarian, I would say that there are VERY few people who mistrust the government as much as I do. I think that the government fails at so many things (schooling, social security, market regulation, Medicare and Medicaid, the postal service, etc, etc, etc), it's not even funny. However, what the American government sucks at the most is covering things up.

As evidence, take a look at the failed "cover ups" of Watergate, the Iran Contra Affair, NSA warrantless surveillance, the Whitewater Scandal, just to name a few. Heck, Clinton couldn't even get a blowjob in the Oval Office without everyone finding out, and you're going to tell me the Bush Administration (quite possibly the worst administration in the last sixty years) can cover up a it's involvement in September 11?

This whole "truther" thing has run its course, and the followers are starting to notice. Maybe that's why so many of them are starting to pull at strings in the hopes that they can grab a hold of something.

I don't know, maybe I should just stay away from these 9/11 threads. I'm relatively new to this board, and I saw a truther actually challenge an individual who claimed that a close friend (or family member, I can't remember) died in the attacks to show him or her proof. I mean, come on. This is just getting sad... And offensive... But mostly sad.

have you ever heard of the Manhattan Project?

please take a look into that, and realize the enormity of successful secrecy that took place there.

reply to post by VirginiaRisesYetAgain

Originally posted by pteridine
Do you conclude that the NIST report is part of the OS?

Yes. It is just an extension of one of the aspects of the OS (how the Towers fell). As I stated before, the report does not concern itself with determining the events surrounding the events of 9/11 (as does the Commission Report), just the actual collapsing of the Towers.

You state that no report by any administration other than that of GWBush would be part of the OS. Would this be true in all cases?

Not in the case where somebody from a different Administration came forward with evidence that shone doubt on the previous Admin's depiction of events. There has been no Official announcement by the White House or people in Obama's Admin that challenge the story given by the previous Admin. If new evidence comes to light in this or future Admins and an Official announcement was made and historical data altered, THEN the OS would have been altered.

What MSM journalism do you include? The reports trailed the journalism by years and the journalism didn't always coincide with the reports on all points. Why would you include the journalism at all?

I will clarify what I meant before by MSM stories. I meant the statements made by Official Government spokesmen in relation to the attacks on MSM channels. (Individual interpretations made by media personalities and journalists about the events of 9/11 are not part of the OS in my opinion).

Click here for more information.

Originally posted by pteridine

Originally posted by VirginiaRisesYetAgain
reply to post by pteridine

 

Alright, after this post will be time for me to stop feeding the trolls again because your convolution of the topic is already totally outweighing any substance in your post.

The definitions are open to interpretation like Bill Clinton's word "is", is open to interpretation. Unless you are denying that government agencies are authorities, or denying that they have described a series of events in their reports, either of which would be so asinine that it wouldn't even deserve a serious response. Just go ahead and say that government agencies aren't authorities, or that the reports don't describe a series of events. I'll let those statements stand without a rebuttal. That's fine. They don't even need one.

And with that, like I said, I'm going to have to starve the troll again.

As you said "the definitions are open to interpretation" which leads us back to my question. What constitutes the "official story?" Does it include MSM reports or not? What Government reports does it include? Does it include internet postings of "disinfo" agents or not? This doesn't deny an official story, it asks YOU to define the limits.
The troll excuse is just that; an excuse. The posts are convoluted in your mind because you hadn't considered all of this before you started on your latest rant and can't answer the question.
As I posted previously, this likely has as many interpretations as people interpreting it. As Ginny is unable to come to grips with the possibility of multiple interpretations, does anyone else want to try to answer this?

"What is included in the official story?"

wow you are dense. by saying what he said about clintons definition of 'is', he means it is stupid and worthy of ridicule to openly interpret the meaning of 'official story'.

Originally posted by Prove_It_NOW
Originally posted by ProdigalSon

then why are the conspiracist so desperate to proove it? What is the diference between them?

Maybe because it set the tone for American policy over the past ten years, got us into trillions of dollars of war spending, created massive division globally, is bascially the FOUNDATION of all political rhetoric heard today considering the Mid East and Domestic policy??????????????????????

It is like religious-atheist endless debate, one group desperately trying to prove the existence of god, and on group trying to desperately disprove his existence.
What is with everybody from both sides having this uncontrolable obsession to convince the others for their beliefs.

Because unlike the things you stated above, the whole issue of 9/11 involves REAL and TANGIBLE evidence that you can see, hear, and dissect. "God" is a concept of imagination or belief.

Belief and FACT = Two different things...but I thought that was obvious.

I couldn't care less if someone does not believe or want to debunk the 9/11 conspiracy or any other conspiracy for that matter, why should i care?
Don't you think these discussions are just pointless?

If it's all "pointless" to you, why are you even chiming in? To hear yourself talk? Or to practice your internet skills?

Sorry, while my understanding of this subject is not so obvious, your statement here is just wrong...

Everything is belief.

The only thing that is not belief is that you exist, but it's belief for everyone but YOU!!! so in essence it is belief too.

Jaden

Originally posted by okbmd
reply to post by VirginiaRisesYetAgain

 

What a sheer act of desperation .

Contrary to your opinion , you are the one who is confused . You and yours are accusing the government of lies and cover-ups and crimes . As I have already told one of your bedfellows , it is YOU and YOURS that are bringing the case against the government , therefore , the burden of proof is YOUR responsibility .

And , I notice that you still refuse to address my last post to you in the other thread . What's wrong , you just can't argue with facts and choose to ignore it instead ?

This is pathetic .

Your reading comprehension is the only thing that is pathetic my friend. He mentions nothing of those things in the OP. Simply defines what an official story is.

The government went to war with 2 sovereign nations based on their official story, the burden of proof is certainly on them by any stretch of the imagination.

It seems the 9/11 conspiracy theories don't add up and each theory doesn't match each other as there are multiple stories and opinions on who was responsible for the attacks.

But whatever, everyone is entitled to their own opinions . All I can say is, 9/11 "truthers" have it easy. They can protest and "expose" the "truth" about that horrible day and get away with it....when Assange exposes truth about a certain matter and is accused of child porn and then sexual assault.

See where I'm going with this?

Expose truth, expect to be targeted.

9/11 truthers can freely discuss and "expose" 9/11 theories and live life happily.

(meaning they're all actually BS and the government does not care)

But like I said, everyone has their opinions and that's fine. That's the point of this web site, to discuss conspiracy theories

I absolutely disagree with those who say this story is 'old hat', and I have to say I don't understand such an attitude.

9/11 happened. BUT it was as a result of the GOVERNMENT's explanation of these events that thousands of lives have subsequently been lost. I think it's vitally important that we separate the event from the Government explanation.

Based on the Government's explanation war was waged in Afghanistan. Hundreds of thousands of innocent people - Afghans, US military, allied military have been lost, all TOTALLY BASED ON THE GOVERNMENT VERSION OF EVENTS.

As a result of the Government's version of 9/11, and them then linking 'terrorism' to Iraq, and as we now know, lying about Iraq'a WMD, hundreds of thousands more innocent lives have been lost.

As a result of the Government's version of 9/11 hundreds of laws have passed which severely impinge on the freedom of the individual.

For these reasons alone, I believe the Government must answer all and every question regarding the indisputable anomalies in and unanswered questions about its version of what happened.

Whether you believe the OS or not, the GOVERNMENT's VERSION of what happened has altered the course of history. It is therefore NOT GOOD ENOUGH that the Government refuses to answer the many questions which have been raised by US citizens and citizens all over the world.

It is a fact that the Government deliberately lied about WMD in Iraq. So, it is proven that they DO lie about the most serious of things. This in itself is another reason why the Government version of 9/11 MUST be re-investigated and intensely scrutinised. The consequences of the Government version on the lives of millions of people, coupled with the fact that they are known to lie, whether you believe their version or not, is sufficient reason for holding a full scale investigation.

I have to say that those who so gleefully write off those who challenge the Government version of events as idiots, nuts, seem to be the kind of citizen who cares nothing for the suffering inflicted in millions as a result. As long as their comfortable little lives aren't disrupted, it seems it doesn't matter. That is a view which I cannot share or condone. As long as it's not them who are being bombed and killed, perhaps it doesn't really matter.

To me it matters very, very much.

I personally want to know if all those millions of lives were lost/affected on the basis of another Government lie. Because if that is the case, those people are not fit to hold any position whatsoever in any government in any country ever again.

The Government presented its version of events. Millions of ordinary citizens worldwide believe the Government story doesn't add up, or that there are serious anomalies in it. Many intelligent, educated, professional people with expert knowledge have challenged the Government version.

The Government is simply ignoring and brushing off all requests for disclosure and investigation. Why? In a real democracy, the Government is answerable to the people. In this situation, the people want answers.
The Government is refusing. In a situation so serious as this one particularly, this makes a mockery of Democracy.

I believe this is true, irrespective of whether you believe or don't believe the official story.

So, I repeat, that I separate the 9/11 tragedy from the Government version of events, because they are not necessarily one and the same thing.

A FULL INVESTIGATION INTO THE VERSION OF EVENTS WHICH HAD SUCH CATASTRPHIC CONSEQUENCES FOR THE WORLD IS AN ABSOLUTE MUST.

NOTHING LESS IS ACCEPTABLE.






















[edit on 26-8-2010 by wcitizen]

reply to post by wcitizen


Interesting post. I'll star it.

I believe the Bush administration was fully aware of the attacks. But instead of taking the warnings seriously, W. needed to enjoy his vacation a bit more.

After the attacks happened, it was a perfect excuse to go into Afghanistan. After that, Republicans played the 9/11 game. What's the 9/11 game you ask? It's when someone mentions 9/11 over and over and over to justify something. In this case, it was war with Iraq. Of course, WMD was a "concern" but 9/11 reached home to many Americans and only a select few agreed to an illegal invasion of a country that never attacked us.

The result: over 500,000 dead Iraqis.

That's the 9/11 game and it's sickening that the SAME (and new) people are playing the game again when it comes to the Mosque near Ground Zero. 9/11 shouldn't justify removing the freedom of religion from citizens of the United States and it's a damn shame it's being exploited by sick individuals such as Palin and her crew of morons.


Anywho, sorry for the long post, just felt the need to share.

[edit on 26-8-2010 by SeventhSeal]

Page three, 15th post:

Originally posted by Snarf
are you a paranoid, delusional, fact-ignoring sociopath who thinks everything in existence is a plot by the United States government to steal your RV camper and radio transmission equipment?
Here's your tinfoil hat.
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Snarf's diagnosis: paranoid, delusional, sociopath....(without ever having met the person diagnosed)

i'll let Snarf reply to this above quote:
page three, 17th post:

P.S. you might want to look in the mirror before you go around calling other people names. Does it make you feel tough? Big Boy?
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Snarf, do you feel tough Big Boy?

See? It goes both ways.

Thunder, thunder, thundercats HOOOO,
et


[edit on 26-8-2010 by Esoteric Teacher]