Misconceptions about Jesus Chist

reply to post by hippomchippo


1:prove a negative? what are you referring to?

2: you're an atheist, or an agnostic?



3: I almost don't feel like doing this anymore. I've tried, but everytime, we try to put up information it's like you guys see right through it.
How about this?:

when you atheists or agnostsics start citing sources as to why Jesus isn't real/ God isn't real, then we can chat.

Originally posted by mr10k
reply to post by hippomchippo

 

1:prove a negative? what are you referring to?

2: you're an atheist, or an agnostic?

3: I almost don't feel like doing this anymore. I've tried, but everytime, we try to put up information it's like you guys see right through it.
How about this?:

when you atheists or agnostsics start citing sources as to why Jesus isn't real/ God isn't real, then we can chat.

You're saying we should somehow prove that a person DIDNT exist 2000 years ago, when the burden of proof is on you to prove he DID exist 2000 years ago.
I hope that cleared things up

Originally posted by hippomchippo
None of those people ever met Jesus.
Please provide evidence that they did.

We will let the authors state what they said.
1John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-- the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John 21:24
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

1Cor 15:8
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

There are two PDFs on this page. I believe it's the one from sourdiesel:

Here

Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by hippomchippo
None of those people ever met Jesus.
Please provide evidence that they did.

We will let the authors state what they said.
1John 1:1-3
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life-- the life was made manifest, and we have seen it, and testify to it and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was made manifest to us-- that which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

John 21:24
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true.

1Cor 15:8
And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

You do know none of the disciples wrote that right?
It was written decades after Jesus's supposed death by anonymous sources.

reply to post by hippomchippo


THERE YOU GO AGGAIN!!



Clearly, I can see all you are trying to do is cover up, because you have no sources as to the non-existence of Jesus. NONE! On the other hand, I have many. I have the Bible. I have the fact that the the Catholic church is here. (Clearly if Jesus never existed there wouldn't be one?), and many more, as you have none, and you fumble cheap shots to make it seem as if I have to be the one to provide sources. I already have Many! 2 PDFs and a bible, some ancient religous cultures, the deluge, similarities between distant gods.! What do you have?



It is so funny because I can find 50000000 faults in specific parts in the NT, yet you have not come up with one source! NOT ONE!

This is why I don't argue with the Agnostic, it's like rock,paper, scissors,cup-----no relevance.

Originally posted by mr10k
reply to post by hippomchippo

 

THERE YOU GO AGGAIN!!

Clearly, I can see all you are trying to do is cover up, because you have no sources as to the non-existence of Jesus. NONE! On the other hand, I have many. I have the Bible. I have the fact that the the Catholic church is here. (Clearly if Jesus never existed there wouldn't be one?), and many more, as you have none, and you fumble cheap shots to make it seem as if I have to be the one to provide sources. I already have Many! 2 PDFs and a bible, some ancient religous cultures, the deluge, similarities between distant gods.! What do you have?

It is so funny because I can find 50000000 faults in specific parts in the NT, yet you have not come up with one source! NOT ONE!

You're rambling now, relax a bit.

How does the book of Enoch prove Jesus was a real person?

The bible wasn't written by anyone who met Jesus, so I don't know how that can prove jesus was real.

The rest of your supposed evidence isn't even relevant to whether jesus was a real person or not.

Originally posted by mr10k
This is why I don't argue with the Agnostic, it's like rock,paper, scissors,cup-----no relevance.

I'm not agnostic, nice assumption.

Originally posted by hippomchippo
Ok, so what EVIDENCE has he used to come to this conclusion.
You can't just point at a scholar and say "see, he believes this, he seems smart, therefore it must be true" that's an appeal to authority.
We're looking for evidence, not just a scholars word.

I am glad that you asked this question. The evidence he has comes from scholarly trends. He went through thousands of New Testament scholars writings which included atheists, agnostics and believers. There is a reason to appeal to authority because all of these scholars who are in consensus of the historical Jesus have a reason to write what they found. What they say is relevant. They just wouldn't be blurting out lies. Plus their work would have been detected as a fraud because Gary Habermas only used the work of those who were peer reviewed.

Originally posted by hippomchippo
And furthur, how does he know what the opinion of "basically all scholars" is?

He did all the research on them himself from 1974 to 2000. We were emailing each other the day and he said that his list is over 500 pages and that a publisher wants to publish it into a book. Most of his books have the scholars cited.




[edit on 8/25/2010 by texastig]

reply to post by hippomchippo




It is over! I have not provided book of enoch. I never said the book of enoch proved JESUS. The topic was just to provide the PDF Book Of Enoch I, as I did not see it on the site. The two PDF links contain the lost books which I clearly pointed out ("SOURDIESEL"). Obviously, you opened the webpage, in an attempt to low blow me about the topic, only to find that you missed. Am I rambling? No, I am merely saying I put up sources, so please stop RAMBLING, and persistently asking for more sources.

Originally posted by texastig

1. Jesus died by Roman crucifixion.

Where are the actual facts to support this?

Please open you Google browser and do some research. When you have researched all that you can about the BIBLE, JESUS, THE DELUGE, ANGELS, DEMONS, and texts of other ancient religions, like the Rigveda, Ancient Vedic texts describing what the gods did in India. Ancient Chinese accounts of people descending from the skies, Gods and dragons, ANcient 'gone' civilizations, Sumerian and Akkadian religous texts. Et cetera, then you can come back.

Originally posted by hippomchippo
You're saying we should somehow prove that a person DIDNT exist 2000 years ago, when the burden of proof is on you to prove he DID exist 2000 years ago.
I hope that cleared things up

By Ben Maas:
"No one questions the accurate reconstruction of other ancient texts, such as Homer’s Iliad and Pliny Secundus’s Natural History. Natural History has a time gap between the original and the earliest manuscript of about 750 years and there exist only seven copies. The Iliad comes in second place among all ancient texts with 643 copies, with the time gap between the original and first manuscript being about 400 years. The book in first place is, you guessed it, the New Testament, standing alone with 24970 manuscripts with the earliest time gap being about 25 years and the time gap before the full copy of the NT was about 225 years. This massive number of manuscripts and small time gap should remove any trace of a trace of a trace of doubt in reconstructing the text accurately."

Why do people treat the Bible differently than other historical texts?

[edit on 8/25/2010 by texastig]

I am glad that you asked this question. The evidence he has comes from scholarly trends. He went through thousands of New Testament scholars writings which included atheists, agnostics and believers. There is a reason to appeal to authority because all of these scholars who are in consensus of the historical Jesus have a reason to write what they found. What they say is relevant. They just wouldn't be blurting out lies. Plus their work would have been detected as a fraud because Gary Habermas only used the work of those who were peer reviewed.

How do you come to a conclusion that Jesus was real by reading the New testament? It wasn't written by any of Jesus's disciples. You said there was historical evidence, not appeals to authority based on one scholar saying he knows the opinions of other scholars. Historical evidence is alot different than what you've presented.

He did all the research on them himself from 1974 to 2000. We were emailing each other the day and he said that his list is over 500 pages and that a publisher wants to publish it into a book. Most of his books have the scholars cited.

Ok, so let me get this straight, we should believe what these scholars say, despite that they have no actual historical evidence, but because there are so many of them, and they've read the new testament and believed it?

Sounds like you're asking us to believe in Jesus because christians do.

Like I said - - if there was any REAL prove of Jesus.

It would be Front Page Headlines - - - all over the world.

To this date - - this has not happened.

Therefore - - all we have is speculation.

Originally posted by mr10k
I never said there were...did I? I'm just saying maybe they couldn't explain what they saw. If I saw a giant metal blob fly down with two giant crab arms...I'd say it was a Pokemon. Skip to 1000 years into the future and people would say "Pokemon dont look like giant crab-like metal blobs. Just like here I say "Men can fly into the skies", but he didn't "fly", he "ascended".
And I'm pretty sure Webster's wasn't back then.

This section of the work deals with the physical and flight characteristics of the flying vehicles in the Bible. It is important to understand that, since many of these descriptions occur in a place called "heaven", learning what the word means is crucial to proper understanding of the verses, in which, it appears. In the obscure language the translators used, heaven meant the sky. The word "sky" or "skies" only appears a dozen times in the entire Bible, although most of the events occur outside. The words "fly" and "flying" occurs 38 times; the word flight is not included as it meant "to flee" in every instance. This reveals examples of "godly" flight but, though these flights are described, in some instances, as being in the sky, they also flew in "heaven". The word "heaven" or "heavens" is translated from Hebrew and Greek words that mean "the sky", or directly related to the sky, in
99.7%, or all but 2, of the 730 times it appears, in both the Old and New Testaments. The vehicles described in the Bible are flying in the sky. The research on this concept can be found here. Heaven Is The Sky



Glowing and flashing lights, light beams, and guiding lights are the most frequently associated technological aspect of the flying objects of the Bible. Broadcasting of voices, sounds, and extreme vibrations are, ever present in close proximity to these craft. The term "glory" emerges as the combination of all these effects and is directly connected to the grandeur of the vehicle's appearance. Devices on board can alter weather patterns, cause earthquakes, dry up seas, level cities, and alter the planet's movements. Beams of light that consume and transport beings and things are clearly described as an arsenal of what can only be called transporter beams, high-tech weapons imagined in science fiction. Mechanical devices adorning the vehicles are described as living things, but their movements point to synchronized movement, metal construction, and attached lights, unknown to primitive society, though easily recognized in this modern age. Human bioengineering, mental manipulation, creating and healing diseases, and bringing the dead back to life that are described that mirror, as well as, exceed modern science. We do not claim that all miraculous events are caused by technological means, but many can be seen directly associated with many things we see in our modern world and the realm of science fiction.

www.bibleufo.com...

Originally posted by texastig

No one questions the accurate reconstruction of other ancient texts, such as Homer’s Iliad and Pliny Secundus’s Natural History. Natural History has a time gap between the original and the earliest manuscript of about 750 years and there exist only seven copies. The Iliad comes in second place among all ancient texts with 643 copies, with the time gap between the original and first manuscript being about 400 years. The book in first place is, you guessed it, the New Testament, standing alone with 24970 manuscripts with the earliest time gap being about 25 years and the time gap before the full copy of the NT was about 225 years. This massive number of manuscripts and small time gap should remove any trace of a trace of a trace of doubt in reconstructing the text accurately.

This says nothing about Jesus authenticity, no one questions the accurate reconstruction of the Iliad because people don't worship a character in it, nor do people go to war over it, the Iliad may very well have been edited throughout the years, but it doesn't make much of a difference unless we find the original.

Originally posted by mr10k
Please open you Google browser and do some research. When you have researched all that you can about the BIBLE, JESUS, THE DELUGE, ANGELS, DEMONS, and texts of other ancient religions, like the Rigveda, Ancient Vedic texts describing what the gods did in India. Ancient Chinese accounts of people descending from the skies, Gods and dragons, ANcient 'gone' civilizations, Sumerian and Akkadian religous texts. Et cetera, then you can come back.

Oh, I see, an ancient astronaut fan here.
But I'm talking about historical evidence of Jesus, not poor interpretations of ancient texts that you try to twist as much as possible to make it look like aliens.

reply to post by Annee


Okay, let's say somewhere in the world is one man who knows that Jesus didn't exist. Assume we do not know him, nor ever can, for he is in total seclusion from the world. Since I, in relation to ALL of your previous posts, cannot prove that Jesus lived, Prove to me he didn't. Right now. On this thread. Here, in this time period. Do it.