Misconceptions about Jesus Chist

Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
With no evidence confirming the existence of Jesus it makes little sense to assume he existed until proven otherwise.

Then why don't you apply to all of people of ancient history? Why is there a bias against Jesus for?

I don't understand your first question.

Still though, with no evidence but a strong desire to believe Jesus actually existed people dream up arguments in favor of the idea of him existing. In the end what matters is that there is no evidence to confirm it.

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer

Originally posted by texastig

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
With no evidence confirming the existence of Jesus it makes little sense to assume he existed until proven otherwise.

Then why don't you apply to all of people of ancient history? Why is there a bias against Jesus for?

I don't understand your first question.

Still though, with no evidence but a strong desire to believe Jesus actually existed people dream up arguments in favor of the idea of him existing. In the end what matters is that there is no evidence to confirm it.

I meant to say why don't you apply the same standards for ancient people like Alexander the Great. Using the same standards, scholars believe that Alexander was historical as was Jesus. If you say that Jesus isn't historical the you have to throw out everyone else in ancient history.

reply to post by texastig


Especially considering the first written accounts of Alexander came 400 years after his death.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by texastig

 

Especially considering the first written accounts of Alexander came 400 years after his death.

That is correct. What's even better is that Paul started writing around 20 years after Jesus died. His first book was before the Gospels. These are outstanding sources for being ancient.

Originally posted by texastig
I meant to say why don't you apply the same standards for ancient people like Alexander the Great. Using the same standards, scholars believe that Alexander was historical as was Jesus. If you say that Jesus isn't historical the you have to throw out everyone else in ancient history.

We don't "throw out" people in ancient history that we have evidence for.

Christians MUST establish the literal existence of Jesus because without it their story is useless. However, there still is no evidence of this and no argument from historians or scholars can overcome this inconvenient fact.

reply to post by texastig


" 10. Sunday was the primary day for gathering and worshipping. "

WRONG . The practice of worshipping on Sunday didn't come about until many years later .

" 1. Jesus died by Roman crucifixion. "

Crucifixion was a form of capital punishment that the Romans employed . It was not unique to the jesus story .

" 5. The disciples had experiences that they believed were actual appearances of the risen Jesus. "

So did that shyster Oral Roberts : He claimed that he was visited by a 900-foot tall jesus that was standing beside the City of Faith tower . This 900-foot jesus demanded that he raise several million dollars for the ministry , otherwise the 900-foot jesus was going to take his life .

" 6. Due to these experiences, the disciples’ lives were thoroughly transformed. They were even willing to die for their belief. "

David Koresh also comes to mind ...

[edit on 26-8-2010 by okbmd]

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
We don't "throw out" people in ancient history that we have evidence for.

Christians MUST establish the literal existence of Jesus because without it their story is useless. However, there still is no evidence of this and no argument from historians or scholars can overcome this inconvenient fact.

Then you must apply it to all people of ancient history. The same evidence used to make people believe that Alexander the Great lived is the same evidence that is used that Jesus lived.

[edit on 8/26/2010 by texastig]

Originally posted by okbmd
" 10. Sunday was the primary day for gathering and worshipping. "

WRONG . The practice of worshipping on Sunday didn't come about until many years later .

" 1. Jesus died by Roman crucifixion. "

Crucifixion was a form of capital punishment that the Romans employed . It was not unique to the jesus story .

" 5. The disciples had experiences that they believed were actual appearances of the risen Jesus. "

That is what the majority of scholars believe.

Originally posted by okbmd
So did that shyster Oral Roberts : He claimed that he was visited by a 900-foot tall jesus that was standing beside the City of Faith tower . This 900-foot jesus demanded that he raise several million dollars for the ministry , otherwise the 900-foot jesus was going to take his life .
[edit on 26-8-2010 by okbmd]

To bad he was the 'only' one to see that. There were thousands of people who seen Christ. By the way I agree about Oral Roberts. He was a shyster.

Originally posted by texastig
Then you must apply it to all people of ancient history. The same evidence used to make people believe that Alexander the Great lived is the same evidence that is used that Jesus lived.

[edit on 8/26/2010 by texastig]

Fine with me: let's apply it to all the people of ancient history.

It doesn't matter to me whether Alexander the Great OR Jesus actually existed. It does, however, matter to christians whether Jesus actually existed. But there is no evidence of this: a sad but true fact for the devout.

reply to post by mr10k


" ... I have the fact that the the Catholic church is here. (Clearly if Jesus never existed there wouldn't be one?), ... "

We have the fact that there is a UFO museum in Roswell , N.M. ( Clearly if a UFO never crashed there wouldn't be one ? ) .

Originally posted by traditionaldrummer
Fine with me: let's apply it to all the people of ancient history.

It doesn't matter to me whether Alexander the Great OR Jesus actually existed. It does, however, matter to christians whether Jesus actually existed. But there is no evidence of this: a sad but true fact for the devout.

Then why do you care about what Christians think? Your not going to convince us that there's no Jesus.

Originally posted by texastig
I must respectfully disagree. Why do historians believe that Jesus existed?

Why do some historians believe this you mean?
Because I guess they somehow see the Bible as an historical document that has some kind of validity?

On the other hand many don't, myself included.... which is why people ask for non-biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus.
And no "Christos" is not good enough....

Why do they believe that other people of the ancient exist? Because they have historical data. But when it comes to Jesus why do people scrutinize Him more?

Because there is evidence that they existed, historians at the time made reference to them and/or wrote in detail about them.
There are documents from the time that talk of them and there are writings from people who knew them at the time.

That's how we know anyone existed.... as for someone like Jesus or Robin Hood.... there is no such evidence.

Robin Hood was a tale/story that Jesters told people for amusement and the stories were written and passed on and so on.... until they became myth and then became "Truth".

Much in the same way that Jesus' legend became truth.
There are numerous figures from all over the world and legends from every religion that depict people with the same characteristics as Jesus.....his birth, his other-worldly father and so on.... he is not an original character and certainly not an actual, real historical figure.

The burden of proof rests on those that say that Jesus isn't real.

Really? Do you honestly think that?
You obviously have no clue about "The burden of proof"

As the poster that you so openly slated said....

Prove to me that Unicorns don't exist?
Or Santa Claus or any other mythical, made up character.....

You can't..... you can't prove a negative or a nonexistence and do you know what? People who don't believe don't need to prove.... the burden does not fall upon their shoulders.... It falls upon the shoulders of those making the claims that he does.

And Biblical passages and opinions from people who have already been proven to be fraudulent, don't count.



[edit on 26/8/10 by blupblup]

reply to post by The Djin


I didn't run away! Didn't you read the posts?! There was no argument. At first it was an argument about the aunthenticity of Jesus, then came existence, and then when I try to provide an inch of proof, he brushed it off as - fiction. There's no running away from an argument with no goal, it's simply called ending the argument.

Originally posted by texastig
Then why do you care about what Christians think? Your not going to convince us that there's no Jesus.

I have to care what christians think because too often they do stupid things such as try to get creationism taught in schools (like they did in a local county here a few years back).

I don't care to convince you that Jesus didn't exist. But I will continue to point out that there is nothing in the way of evidence to establish that he did exist.

reply to post by Annee


You said your self you believe Jesus was a Light being. You believe in Jesus. Or do you believe in Light Being as an Alien. Just because you do not think the way others do doesn't make your belief in him wrong. I don't believe God is a giant man in the sky. I believe he is the driving life force of the world, which inhabits everything in nature, which is why he knows what we're doing at all times. He inhabits us. He collects our experiences. That's why it is good to interact with nature, and of course, as people used God to justify their wars, we used plants to create biological wepaons and viruses, and diseases. I believe God is a life force. Jesus is the Word of God, the path, the way. If you don't believ that Jesus, the figure of the Bible, was real, then how can you even say that you are a good person. I don't care if Jesus Christ was a bum on the street, because he preached all the right things, and the right way to treat everyone. So did other reincarnations of God. I never said that Light Beings/ Watchers attribute to the authenticity of Jesus Christ, because if you believe in the watchers, you believe in God, and if you believe in God, you believe that he sent his Word to Earth, whatever shape, form, color, race, age, soul, he may be. simple.

reply to post by TiglathPileser



Of COURSE those things Don't exist. It is PROVEN that they ARE fairy tales created by people for entertainment.

Jesus Christt did live.
His life spawned the creation of the Early Catholic Church
The Early Catholic Church saw that Jesus can be used as a tool for manipulation like the music stars and actors/actresses today.
They burned and took out most of the books
They made Mary a holy firgure
They wove the rest of the books together and called it the bible.
King James translated (and summarized) most of their work, spawning the KJV Bible.
Most people who do not believe in Christ use the KJV as literal evidence pointing out errors, inclusions, false names, etc.

If Jesus didn''t live, Why would there be an Early Church? The Nicaean Council? Explain to me, and show YOUR proof that shows me that the Church spawned from a mythological story/ book written by some random person?

Originally posted by blupblup
Why do some historians believe this you mean?

No, the majority of scholars believe.

Habermas and Licona explain that even "the majority of nonbelieving scholars" (p. 149) accept such facts, not just Christian scholars.
(The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus [Grand Rapids, Michigan: Kregel Publications, 2004], pp. 60, 70)

Originally posted by blupblup
Because I guess they somehow see the Bible as an historical document that has some kind of validity?

That is correct.

Originally posted by blupblup
On the other hand many don't, myself included.... which is why people ask for non-biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus.
And no "Christos" is not good enough....

Here's some ancient "non-Christian" sources forChrist:
www.garyhabermas.com...

Originally posted by blupblup
Much in the same way that Jesus' legend became truth.
There are numerous figures from all over the world and legends from every religion that depict people with the same characteristics as Jesus.....his birth, his other-worldly father and so on.... he is not an original character and certainly not an actual, real historical figure.

Do you have sources on that?

Originally posted by blupblup
Really? Do you honestly think that?
You obviously have no clue about "The burden of proof"

You keep saying that Jesus doesn't exist. You must prove that to me. Nobody came to you to tell you that your believing that Jesus doesn't exist is wrong.

Originally posted by blupblup
Prove to me that Unicorns don't exist?

There is no fossil record.

Originally posted by blupblup
Or Santa Claus or any other mythical, made up character.....

No historical evidence.

Originally posted by blupblup
You can't..... you can't prove a negative or a nonexistence and do you know what? People who don't believe don't need to prove.... the burden does not fall upon their shoulders.... It falls upon the shoulders of those making the claims that he does.

I will quote from the Jewish law teacher Gamaliel from the book of Acts.
Acts 5:38-39
38. "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:"
39. "But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."

After 2000 years, Christianity is still going and growing strong.

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by texastig
I must respectfully disagree. Why do historians believe that Jesus existed?

Why do some historians believe this you mean?
Because I guess they somehow see the Bible as an historical document that has some kind of validity?

On the other hand many don't, myself included.... which is why people ask for non-biblical evidence of the existence of Jesus.
And no "Christos" is not good enough....

Why do they believe that other people of the ancient exist? Because they have historical data. But when it comes to Jesus why do people scrutinize Him more?

Because there is evidence that they existed, historians at the time made reference to them and/or wrote in detail about them.
There are documents from the time that talk of them and there are writings from people who knew them at the time.

That's how we know anyone existed.... as for someone like Jesus or Robin Hood.... there is no such evidence.

Robin Hood was a tale/story that Jesters told people for amusement and the stories were written and passed on and so on.... until they became myth and then became "Truth".

Much in the same way that Jesus' legend became truth.
There are numerous figures from all over the world and legends from every religion that depict people with the same characteristics as Jesus.....his birth, his other-worldly father and so on.... he is not an original character and certainly not an actual, real historical figure.

The burden of proof rests on those that say that Jesus isn't real.

Really? Do you honestly think that?
You obviously have no clue about "The burden of proof"

As the poster that you so openly slated said....

Prove to me that Unicorns don't exist?
Or Santa Claus or any other mythical, made up character.....

You can't..... you can't prove a negative or a nonexistence and do you know what? People who don't believe don't need to prove.... the burden does not fall upon their shoulders.... It falls upon the shoulders of those making the claims that he does.

And Biblical passages and opinions from people who have already been proven to be fraudulent, don't count.



[edit on 26/8/10 by blupblup]

read this what you siad:

Because there is evidence that they existed, historians at the time made reference to them and/or wrote in detail about them.
There are documents from the time that talk of them and there are writings from people who knew them at the time.

Evidence: The Early Church, The effect it had on the Jewish population at the time.
Made Reference: John, Paul, Peter, Solomon, God, almost every Jew believed the saviour was to be born, and almost all of thenm believ it was Jesus Christ.
Wrote in Detail: 700 books in the bible, including ove 15000 manuscripts.
Documents of the time: It was proven that king Herod DID in fact slaughter innocent children to find Jesus (at that time only was known as the saviour).
People who knew him: Jerusalem, and some people in the neighboring countries.

Originally posted by texastig
After 2000 years, Christianity is still going and growing strong.

Sure, and for well over a thousand of those years they'd kill you or torture you if you didn't believe it and participate in it.

reply to post by swordwords


thanks, nice post