1200 Architects And Engineers

reply to post by Azp420

Sir, you have far more patience than I do. Readers could learn a lot from the very clear and detailed explication here.

What about kinetic energy = (1/2) m v^2 ? That's true but what is the energy required to break each succeeding layer of support so you can "pancake"? It's a lot less if thermite has blown it up first, I can tell you that! And if your kinetic energy is used up (converted to heat) breaking the steel, it won't continue to be kinetic any more.

reply to post by VirginiaRisesYetAgain


I got a belly laugh from that one! I'm getting punchy, time to go to bed.

Yours truly is a fully qualified professional Civil Engineer with 24 years experience.

Lets add a little perspective here.

I've said this before on other threads, and I'll say it again here.

The two planes punched massive holes in the buildings, with an awful lot of kinetic energy - and the towers took full brunt.

No one knows exactly what happened to the towers on that day after the impacts. There are - frankly, too many variables to consider - shear forces, bending moments, elastic tension etc. Then there is the quality of build, the potential for weaknesses in structural elements and areas that loads were spread to - all kinds of things that happen in a structure where loads get re-distributed quickly.

So while I can give an opinion that the failure was unusual (I thought so when I saw it), I cannot say anything other than that - anything else is wild speculation.

Remember that bridge that collapsed a couple of years back in the US? Thats a perfect example of a cascade failure. It started with one element failing and the loads of the structure redistributing to cause other elements to fail.

NIST was a theory. 9/11 "truthers" have a theory.

You could probably (if you had the time, inclination and a whole lot more money) model those impacts on a super computer and get different results every time depending on how you predict certain elements will fail due to their age and condition, and even then you would only have an educated theory

Nothing would ever be exact.

Just because 1200 people think something is unusual, it does not mean they are all automatically right.

It simply means that 1200 people think something is unusual.

With respect, i dont find the collapses of 9/11 "unusual", I find the explosiveness of the collapse unusual....in fact, I dont even like the word collapse regarding 1 and 2...exploded seems more appropriate.


[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/25bb8fe2bd09.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/bbc4c23d8308.jpg[/atsimg]

Thats where, for me, deluded or otherwise, its not unusual...its CLEAR.....

....the plane never brought down the buildings...the explosives did.





[edit on 26-8-2010 by benoni]

reply to post by benoni


Just out of interest...

What do you think happens to a structural element that fails when loads it has not been designed for are forced upon it.

Do you think it just ceases to exist?

If not, what do you think happens to it?

I'm interested in knowing.

reply to post by VirginiaRisesYetAgain


Those are the unrelated video parts. You know very well what is related and what is not. Perhaps you missed the non-artistic parts where it was the wtc event replicated.


reply to post by Azp420


gravity at 1 second. The momentum of the top of the towers against the lower parts.

For all intensive purposes, steel rods versus welding is a house of cards when hit by a large level of momentum.

reply to post by TiffanyInLA


Pool balls do not have the right characteristics in size versus mass. The size and mass of a bowling ball creates similar momentum to the size and mass. Perhaps a bit of physical foreknowledge is needed here?

listen!, every educated person on earth who has looked at the 911 mass murder event and the disturbing facts that surround it with a modicum of honesty and intellectual self respect understand that all 4 "planes "crashes" were simply false flag events ... false flag murders

that the passengers were taken off and probably murdered, that the pentagon killed scores of its staff with a DU missile that about 3000 were incinerated burned of crushed to pulp in the 2 demolished towers
that building seven was demolished later in the day as well and was filled with dead people as well, later murdered , was a new york official
who spoke of building seven publicly,experiences being rescued from building 7 which,i think, is a nice stalinesque touch ,

everyone knows!! , sure there`s millions who believe the official nonsense story of blame , that cave dwelling ."freedom haters" and "evildoers" ,did this cause they hate our way of life!!! these people dont read or think critically these people also have no idea fascism has come to america , believe the earth is 6000 yrs ols and and that noah took dinosaurs on the arc, and consider pro wrestling good fare for the kiddiesand incredibly dont know the relationship between government and media
educated people who have the courage to think of upsetting stuff, difficult matters and don`t choose self delusion or the comfort of silly lies understand that Israel and the american fascist freaks committed this unthinkable psychotic crime.

america and Israel are fast becoming pariah nations on the earth , soon no sane people will have anything to do with them, boycotts are spreading like wildfires, no sane people is confused no moral person would support it or help tptb get away with it

deal with it , the world knows!
the politicials know.... educated professionals know .....military and intel communities know ,... the media knows .....scientists and engineers know....pilots and thinkers know....laypeople who have intellectual self respect know.

Originally posted by neformore
Yours truly is a fully qualified professional Civil Engineer with 24 years experience.

Lets add a little perspective here.

I've said this before on other threads, and I'll say it again here.

The two planes punched massive holes in the buildings, with an awful lot of kinetic energy - and the towers took full brunt.

No one knows exactly what happened to the towers on that day after the impacts. There are - frankly, too many variables to consider - shear forces, bending moments, elastic tension etc. Then there is the quality of build, the potential for weaknesses in structural elements and areas that loads were spread to - all kinds of things that happen in a structure where loads get re-distributed quickly.

So while I can give an opinion that the failure was unusual (I thought so when I saw it), I cannot say anything other than that - anything else is wild speculation.

Remember that bridge that collapsed a couple of years back in the US? Thats a perfect example of a cascade failure. It started with one element failing and the loads of the structure redistributing to cause other elements to fail.

NIST was a theory. 9/11 "truthers" have a theory.

Explain how the mass of the north tower above the impact zone could fall and accelerate all of the mass below the impact zone to the ground in less than 18 seconds even though that mass was DESIGNED to support the weight. Explain why all of the EXPERTS are not demnding accurate data on that mass.

You are just promoting obfuscation.

www.youtube.com...

Is Newtonian Physics still a THEORY?

psik

I CAN'T beleive there are people out there who beleive that the 9/11 attacks WEREN'T a staged event by the Robber Baron class that is working toward their geopolitical agenda. Seriously, I look back to when I beleived that the truth was that a group of highly capable cavemen were conspiring against the west, a conspiracy to take our freedom. Bush was telling the truth when he told us not to beleive outrageous conspiracy theories that deflect attention away from the terrorists. He just didn't tell us that he was part of the terrorist group and the outrageous theory was what the mainstream was peddling. Maybe we are just a bunch of moronic gullible sheep that deserve to be harvested by these meglomaniacs. The vehement defence of the gov't by debunkers makes me lose faith. I forget that I was brainwashed not too long ago and would most likely have reacted the same way as the debunkers do. There is no answer I can offer, needless to say we are not enemies but as we fight our enemies are making more and more ground.

Originally posted by Azp420
reply to post by psikeyhackr

 

I'm sure they do. But designing a building and figuring why a 200 ton airliner could not possibly destroy a 400,000 ton building in less than two hours is a whole nuther story.

A great deal of time and effort went into designing the towers to withstand an airliner impact.

But I haven't seen any mention of the distributions of steel and concrete by the organization since then.

I'm still unaware as to what the distributions of steel and concrete would prove.

So I think getting this settled has to be a serious embarrasment to lots of people with degrees in engineering and physics.

It's not an embarrassment to at least 1200 of us.

Well I guess that says something about what some people claim to UNDERSTAND about engineering.

I had an interesting conversation with a senior physics major in my freshman year at Illinois Institute of Technology. I was saying I didn't get relativity. He actually said don't worry about understanding it just memorize the equations. That is the trouble witha lot of people with degrees. They just memorized the equations.

Every level of the WTC had to be strong enough to support all of the weight above. That meant progressively increasing the amount of steel all of the way down. But more steel means more mass which becomes a factor in the conservation of momentum in a supposed top down gravitational collapse.

When the plane hit the south tower it deflected 15 inches. How much of the plane's kinetic energy went into that deflection and subsequent four minute oscillation? How can the damage to the core be computed withou knowing the energy lost in the deflection? How can that be computed without knowing the distribution of mass?

The degreed EXPERTS seem to be not raising obvious issues for a NINE YEAR OLD event.

www.youtube.com...

www.youtube.com...

I say a skyscraper could not collapse like that even if it was not designed to handle impacts. The engineering required to make a building that big withstand gravity and the wind would make it impossible. Gage and his buddies are just using the argument, "Believe us because we have degrees." They are not explaining the importance of the mass and the Newtonian Physics to the Average Man.

psik

reply to post by Titan Uranus


Why stage that which would happen? It's quite clear that the government got lazy and didn't give a damn. We beat Russia! We were on top of the world. Immortalized. It always happens to superpowers when they beat their main competitors. A bunch of farmers don't like us? What are they going to do? bomb us? ha!

Then it happened. Because we were cocky and not aware of our own mortality. 911 reminded us that we were, in fact, mortal. The fact that Russia died made no difference.

Then they decided to take advantage of the situation to try and regain that glory. Fail.

Do tell. If it was staged, why did they not gain anything and only lose? Congress is at 11% approval. The president is down to 42%, we basically finished off average in iraq and now we are losing Afganastan, and we are going poor and looking more and more like revolutionary France than Nazi Germany.

So do tell. Why do it when they failed miserably. Surely the genius that went into such a plan would reflect in their leadership abilities?

I Watched for over 7 years people claiming Bush would declare himself dictator and take over. Never happened. Now I watch the same with Obama. Admittedly I feel its more likely, but I am just as skeptical.


The question must be asked. Why plan an even that for all intensive purposes did nothing but diminish our super power title and make us hated and disliked and closer to revolution? It seems kind of counter productive.

reply to post by Gorman91


I don't beleive the gov't is controlled in the same way you do. You are thinking as a patriotic member of a nation. I don't beleive the prosperity of America as a Nation was a factor in the deliberations. I beleive the ones that controll your NATION and many (most) others do not hold allegiance to any nation and use them for their purposes only. America has served its purpose and is primed to fall. The America you speak of and your conception of Gov't is still a gov't of the people. The gov't is no longer of the people and is definately not for the people. Sure you have the constitution and there may be a few good men in washington but the constitution is under attack from all sides and the few good men need reinforcements to say the least.

The key here is the American Gov't as you conceive it did not take part in the attacks of 9/11. The entities that control your gov't have far reaching goals that stem beyond the prosperity and success of America as a Nation. They are the ones that funded and ensured 9/11 happened. Sure they may have employed radical cavemen but to beleive that a group of sophisticated sandmonkeys puled off what happenned on that day without the co-operation of the forces that have control within the U.S. is laughable.

Like I said I am not your enemy, I wish you no harm. I do not doubt there are islamic terrorists but I am even more sure of the fact that those who control your country have more sinister aims than simply to make a dollar.

reply to post by Titan Uranus


Geez, that sounds like a piece right out of Mass Effect's reapers.

Then there is an obvious logical hole in that which is the same logical hole in Mass Effect, which they used quite well in that series.

Unforeseen consequences. You see, America is very much so still united more or less. And there is a crap ton of guns. And patriotic generals as well. In fact, I'd bet that if the government did fall, you could see it get replaced with the army and the army rebuild the government.

The unforeseen consequence is a well armed deterrent against this seemingly Power that is that controls all things.

In fact, I will describe that series and relate it to the real world. In that one, ancient powers called Reapers control all nations and will them to the same path, to eventually be harvested, sucked dry, and cast to the shadows, then they wait for new nations later on and repeat. Over and over for eon after eon. However, one nation built another nation known as the geth. Whom over time became stronger and stronger. Then they booted out their makers, rebelled, and made their own nation. The powers that control did not anticipate this. They attempted to regain control of the situation by offering technology and power to the Geth. A small few accepted, the rest remained true to their ultra individualistic views and isolationism. Eventually the Geth became so powerful that they could challenge the powers and all attempts at collapsing them were worthless, for the Geth were so united from their prior experiences with those powers that they could no longer fall from them.

On Earth, America is like the Geth. We are no longer capable of falling. We are too united. And too powerful. Any attempt to make us fall inevitably creates a counter productive movement. The more you push us over, the more united and seemingly national socialist we become. Although we dare not call it that. Indeed even Hitler to some degree had the same idea. He wanted to go against the powers that be. but he was evil. And it was easy to turn the world against him. America's people are not evil. And they are strong. Indeed we have seen numerous attempts to change us, divide us, push us over, threaten us, and do horrible things. But through it all America has seen no success at this. America is an anomaly. And that anomaly is very close now to overcasting the powers that be. In fact we are right now, perhaps, equal to their power.

Like you said, these individuals are only as strong as the nations they control. And they are afraid, for they are losing control of their power base called America. They will try to turn us into the world pinnate. They will try to bring us down. They will try and do many things. But it won't succeed. Because America is an anomaly and now they have lost control of it. We have a fever. And it is removing their blight on us. It is killing them and they are leaving the body. They are desperately trying to find another body. But none will take them, for they have run out of nations to control. Many have grown to be immune, many others are just not genetically compatible, and America is sick with them, but we are now killing them with the fever for change we have. And soon they will be no more, for they will have to either accept and evolve to their changed location in the food chain, or they will go extinct.

reply to post by Gorman91


Max respect to your reply.

I sense sincerity, in your last paragraph especially, and I scratch my head to realise that you beleive that these same powers that the citizens must unite together and show them their true place had nothing to do with 9/11. I guess there is something stopping you from making the connection. As far as Bush being dictator or Obama being dictor, as mentioned in your first reply, this indicated to me that you beleive your President still has some sort of power. I don't beleive they do anything of their own volition unless it aligns with the ends of those above them.

I guess my worldview is more dire than yours, I don't beleive 9/11 would have happened (past the first plane lets say) unless there was co-operation from within. You have more of a naive innocent worldview where 9/11 was an 'oopsie' by those lovable goofs in Washington that try so hard to look out for and protect their people but just goof up all the time. Ain't they cute tho. Sorry for the condescending sarcasm, no offence intended just illustrating a point.

Americans that beleive the official story easily beleive that the 'Muslim Terrorists' are capable and willing to destroy innocent lives. Those same Americans cannot beleive that the same level of evil and hatred can come from the people in control of their gov't.

You are intelligent and I am certain you have your doubts about that day.

reply to post by neformore


Well you're the first person qualified in engineering I've heard to give that much credence to NIST. Others have, for example, said that some aspects of NIST are possible but studiously avoided endorsing that general theory. You aren't endorsing it either, but at least you are mentioning it.

I think NIST is impossible. Other theories we propose here are very speculative but not impossible. We don't know what happened, that's why there are so many theories. If there were a good convincing theory it would dominate the others. But the one theory we dismiss reliably is NIST.

To my way of thinking, it's possible that one could get clean collapses that occurred under the NIST theory. (Well except for the rate of fall, which may dismiss even that possibility.) But the probability of it approaches zero. It's possible in the same sense that Lindsay Lohan could suddenly materialize on top of my monitor. According to quantum theory, that is possible too. To have credence as an engineering theory in my experience, something must be possible in a more substantial sense.

What about building 7?

And there are other events of the day, like the order that grounded our air defenses at just the moment they were needed most, that say to me "we're not in Kansas anymore".

reply to post by Titan Uranus


Never said they didn't. Just doubt the whole demos. You honestly would not need to do much work to have it done. Just have the agents who try to alert the government get re-assigned. Have the officials that try to leak it have an early retirement. Tons of stuff. The government would never know. They would just let it happen. Then you get a man who was always in the shadow of his father in power. Somebody you know would overreact to try and do something to make a name for him. bam. It all comes to full play. No demos. No lies. No anything. Just the right people in the right place.

A bunch of farmers did attack America. But the question you should ask is how was it possible for farmers to attack us. The question should be asked who cleared a path for them to do it.

You would honestly need maybe 20 people in the right place to do it.

As for the president. I do think it's dual in thinking. I think the president thinks he has power but in reality he does not. We see even now serious division within the cabinet and the president. I think these powers did to America what the Europeans did to Africa. They just left. I don't think these powers have control of the American president nor supreme court anymore. Maybe a few senators. I think they are in transition of leaving. I certainly see how they could control Bush. I certainly see how they could have controlled much of the government under him. But I think they are transitioning themselves out. And just as Africa went to hell in a hand basket when the Europeans left without fixing what they broke, They expect the same from America, but they did not get what they'd expect.

Now, like a person stuck in a collapsing wormhole, half of them are stuck and the other half is in transition. They are caught. They can't return, it would be suicide. But they can't leave, because then they'd actually have to compete for their power position. Oh what to do.

reply to post by Gorman91


So you don't rule out involment or at least complicity. You just don't think they were demo'd. k I get it. I don't know, physics is kind of on the side of demo i beleive but then again I'm no Einstein.

Peace

reply to post by Titan Uranus


I look at momentum. I also look at the materials there. Thermite could come about naturally and literally make zinc-sulfur thermit. That's rocket fuel. That plus the fires already weakening it, and they are going down. I mean, I'm no fan of the architectural style. Like I mentioned. Look at the Empire state building when it got hit with a plane. Then imagine the x2 size with many times the fuel. It's a lot of damage.

Originally posted by neformore
Yours truly is a fully qualified professional Civil Engineer with 24 years experience.

Lets add a little perspective here.

I've said this before on other threads, and I'll say it again here.

The two planes punched massive holes in the buildings, with an awful lot of kinetic energy - and the towers took full brunt.

No one knows exactly what happened to the towers on that day after the impacts. There are - frankly, too many variables to consider - shear forces, bending moments, elastic tension etc. Then there is the quality of build, the potential for weaknesses in structural elements and areas that loads were spread to - all kinds of things that happen in a structure where loads get re-distributed quickly.

So while I can give an opinion that the failure was unusual (I thought so when I saw it), I cannot say anything other than that - anything else is wild speculation.

Remember that bridge that collapsed a couple of years back in the US? Thats a perfect example of a cascade failure. It started with one element failing and the loads of the structure redistributing to cause other elements to fail.

NIST was a theory. 9/11 "truthers" have a theory.

You could probably (if you had the time, inclination and a whole lot more money) model those impacts on a super computer and get different results every time depending on how you predict certain elements will fail due to their age and condition, and even then you would only have an educated theory

Nothing would ever be exact.

Just because 1200 people think something is unusual, it does not mean they are all automatically right.

It simply means that 1200 people think something is unusual.

The Towers exploding into untrafine dust is not just' unusual' it is IMPOSSIBLE with only fuel and gravity for energy sources.

Nothing ' collapsed ' on 9-11....all anyone has to do is LOOK at the film of the final moments to see MASSIVE release of energy, with huge plumes bursting upward and outward, turning virtually all concrete and people and virtually everything else into shards.

Remains of humans were found on the tops of buildings in tiny pieces...total and irrefutable evidence of a force so extreme that instead of seeing people crushed or mangled by the debris, we see people blasted apart into the tiniest bits.

Also, WHY are there NO...NONE..not even ONE qualified engineer willing to stand up and defend the official fairy tale? There may be ONLY 1200 or so architects and engineers, so far, that are willing to say the obvious, but there are NO scientists or qualified people that publicly will support the official lie.

The government is so empty of any logical excuse for the facts that they rely on a shill like Bazant...they say: " Look, Bazant has said that there was enough energy to dustify the Towers, and when Bazant is shown to be wrong and totally off target we still get NO official support for their own story.

The government CANNOT defend the story they give out....it cannot be defended with science, or with facts, or in any other way. It is SO plain and clear:

If the official story had any validity to it whatsoever, there would be throngs of scientists with peer reviewed papers proving their case...instead we get insulting to the intelligence excuses totally unproven by any evidence, and we are told to ' trust them ' and not use any thinking skills at all.

If there were 1200 architects that would come forward to defend the official lie, that would be one thing....however, there are NONE...NONE...NONE...no professional wants to destrpy their reputation by backing up an obvious lie....unless they work for the perps, that is.

9-11 truth has all the facts and evidence and proof....the official story cultists only have faith in the elite, and that is a sad and doomed approach to finding the truth...we KNOW what the truth is, and have proved it...the other side cannot prove their assertions, and so they do not even try.

NOT ONE government representative has ever come forth to defend the official account in front of his peers...he knows he wopuld be laughed out of the profession if he dared to defend the official fairy tale..so they refuse to even try..and that is proof in itself of a coverup.

reply to post by psikeyhackr


Hold up..... Why should I do that exactly?

I have made no claims about this. All I've said is that there is no cut and dried position on this from either side because no one actually knows

NIST could be wrong. 9/11 truthers could be wrong. Both are arguing purely from a point of conjecture because, and I will say it again no one has modelled every single structural element of the building, and no one can allow for fatigues, areas of less than perfect workmanship, general wear and tear and the effect those things can have on a building hit by an airplane weighing between 110-120 tonnes travelling at over 400 miles an hour.

And because no one has modelled all of the elements, with all of the variables (and no one actually knows all of the varibles) it is absolute folly to say either that the collapse as it happened is possible, or not.

Neither side can make an absolute claim.