Debunk evolution once and for all

Originally posted by randyvs
You know what X? The Damn thing is still a freagin fly man.
Turn a fly into a spider and you will have my undivided attention.

Another person that can't grasp the enormous span of time.. So sad..

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
Can anyone explain how "AWARENESS" came into being ???

Everything living creature has self awareness, we just can't express it due to language barriers.

Look at ants for example, that small, with probably no brain and they function beautifully and communicate amongst each other in colony to colony bases.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
Can anyone explain how "AWARENESS" came into being ???

Awareness: I am who i am.

Awareness always was and always is. Awareness exists in two different dimensions: Infinite and finite.

Why?

Finite can not have something the infinite doesn't have.

Originally posted by strangleholder1
reply to post by oozyism

 

You have no understanding of anything it seems. Why do you continue to post your drivel on these boards? Why dont you realise that you are from a backward civilization who still believes in god and the destruction of the US.You have nothing of note to say because you arent as clever as a westerner and thats why we own you, your god allah and have turned your region into another 3rd world petrol station.

LOL

What>?

U = Atheist?

Has anyone heard the theory that our universe is actually within a black hole? This explanation would actually make the "Big Bang" more reasonable in the sense that all of this matter here did not simply explode but is the rear end of this black hole.

With that in mind, the big bang doesn't really sound all the special anymore does it?

What is the Evolutionists "theory" of how "Awareness" came into being ???

Not what "Awareness" is..... but How it came into being ???

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller


First, we need an operational definition of awareness, aka consciousness. This is a question that has plagued philosophers for all-time. Modern researchers have provided a few hypotheses as to how human consciousness came about. The leading hypothesis is that it is an emergent property of emotion. However, my favorite hypothesis, put forward by Julian Jaynes, is that consciousness has its origin in language. If you are interested I highly suggest reading his book The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind or at least reading what his hypothesis proposes. If you're interested in the emotion hypothesis then look into the researchers Joseph LeDoux and Antonio Damasio.

reply to post by ShakeNBake



Not only can evolution explain the bacterial flagellum, its the only theory that does. The Bible certainly won't be giving you any answers there, neither will the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita. The parts of the flagellum that don't work as a motor to propel the bacteria have each been shown to have separate functions.

Evolution of Flagellum

Arguments from irreducible complexity are just big arguments from ignorance. Simply because we haven't quite cracked a mystery or figured out how evolution led to certain features doesn't mean the mountains of evidence we already have for Evolution vanish. It also definitely does not mean we need a magic man from the sky or that magical Creation makes a better answer.

Evolution doesn't explain morals

Epic Fail. Evolution is the only way we can explain morals. Think about it for a second. Where is a better place to get our morality from? A supernatural magical being OR an innate moral nature that we posses because we are a social species and so were all our ancestors before us.

The fact is that human beings are not physically better than most animals so in order to survive we form communities. We are social animals at our core and morals, which are a blend of both innate instinctual programming and socially learned guidelines, stem directly from this.

Do some research on Altruism in nature, we're not the only species that has morals...

reply to post by oozyism

Why do we oppose Evolutionists? Because they haven't created a new specie yet.

Face Palm.

We have created a new species.

Immaculate creation: birth of the first synthetic cell

or did you mean watching Evolution happen in real time? We've done that and all you need to do is look up OBSERVED SPECIATION. We've watched one species diverge into two separate ones. Evolution is a directly observed reality and is not accepted on faith. In fact your claim that we believe doctors on faith is absolutely absurd because you contradict yourself a moment later - we have evidence that doctors know what they are doing so it requires no faith.

A well informed belief is one that doesn't require faith because it is backed by evidence.

and say it is not a theory any more.

Why do so many people not know the definition of theory... You know technically Atomic Theory and Gravity are just theories right? A theory is a broad framework for explaining things in science. It is not the same as the term used in normal conversation. Evolution will never be promoted beyond theory, because theory is the appropriate scientific term for what it is.

reply to post by randyvs

If there is no guiding hand in all that is, then that means everything happened by chance

Chance makes it sound random when it isn't. The Universe changes according to the laws of nature. Evolution isn't a random chance process like many make it out to be, it is effected by various factors that guide it.

It is true that the Earth is in the habitable zone on our sun but honestly there are trillions of stars and every single one has a habitable zone.

Turn a fly into a spider and you will have my undivided attention.

Do you know how long that would take Randy?

Let's just say you and I will be dust in the wind long before we'd get a fly turned into a spider. Even if we had the time to wait to see them evolving whatever the fly would evolve into would be very different from a spider.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by The Matrix Traveller

Can anyone explain how "AWARENESS" came into being ???

My I do like your thinking.

Another person that can't grasp the enormous span of time.. So sad..

Because I do not accept the enormous span of time needed doesn,t mean
I can't grasp the concept. It is certain that I would have to be in a drawer
full of spoons to be the sharpest knife. That's for me to admit. Not for you to tell.
I'm sorry you feel so bad

Evolution isn't supposed to explain how life began. If you ask me that's where you need a magician.
It took along time foir me to accept that evolution at least to a large extent does happen. I was very hard headed to that fact. It absolutly in no way means God does not exist.

TITEN

Do you know how long that would take Randy?

Yes I do Titen. That's one of the things that make it a chance happening for me . I think a giant asteroid( As just one of thousands of things that could happen before a fly turns into a spider) would strike the earth and obliterate everything that was coming together first.
Had to star Titen for that last one. The more time involved the more you increase the negative.

Do you agree to that Titen?

[edit on 27-8-2010 by randyvs]

I was going to say something but I dont think Titen-Sxull could have explained my views any more clearly, well said!

reply to post by randyvs


While evolution does typically take a very very long time it can also happen very fast (see Cambrian Explosion). I mean look at corn, corn is technically a type of grass, it didn't used to be the tasty yellow-white thing we know and love. The native Americans bred it into all sorts of different shapes and types, that's us manipulating evolution before we even knew what it was

If that asteroid hits it might actually speed up evolution for creatures living on the other side of the world, since the changes in climate and environment caused by the asteroid might force them to evolve or die... Sort of like what happened with the dinosaurs, some went extinct but some resilient species survived and evolved into birds.

I don't think the timescales involved cast any doubt on Evolution, through reproduction there is a limit to the changes that can occur between one generation and the next.

Originally posted by nottheonlyone
reply to post by MrXYZ

 

I already told you I do not support either theory. There is not yet a label for what I believe.... So don't try to label me. I am not a creationist and I am not a member of any religious organization. (I'm not an Atheist or an Agnostic either.) So to your comment that those are the only people apposed to the Theory of evolution.. That is a pretty bold statement - you sure about that?

Again my point is that it is a THEORY. If it was fact then we could call it that. Backed by fact or based on fact put it how ever you want. At the end of the day we cannot call it truth because it is still strung together by an idea or hypothesis.

I can play your game though.... Only an Atheist would argue the fact that science does not come down to faith.

You have faith that the scientists have their facts strait. You have faith that the links you post are unaltered and true. These things only make sense to you because someone told that is how it works. You have faith in others - through your faith in others you end up with faith in your beliefs. Deal with it.

Not going to argue any of my other points...? Too mad at faith huh?



[edit on 26-8-2010 by nottheonlyone]

You come across as someone who has no idea what the word "faith" means.

Please do us a favor and define faith.

Originally posted by The Matrix Traveller
What is the Evolutionists "theory" of how "Awareness" came into being ???

Not what "Awareness" is..... but How it came into being ???

Evolution is in no way obligated to explain how awareness "came into being"

reply to post by Xcalibur254


Thank you for your response....

I shall definitely take your advice and read Julian Jaynes book, “The Origin of Consciousness” as well as take a look at the researchers "Joseph LeDoux" and "Antonio Damasio".

Thank you for these referrences....


What you wrote.... Quote;

First, we need an operational definition of awareness, aka consciousness.

and….

my favorite hypothesis, put forward by Julian Jaynes, is that consciousness has its origin in language.

I agree 100%...

_________________

My next question is.....

Which Language ???

As this very "experience" we are have right now, involving our individual "body" and its "Environment" i.e. this Universe, is also presented in the form of a Language, involving “Geometry” or “Picture Language” (including the other 4 senses (also involving Geometry)...

It is through “Geometry” we recognise and react to "Shape" and "Position"…

And our Experience of this Universe and the body, is in the form of a Geometric “Story”…

i.e. "The Experiences Of".... for example Xcalibur254 or The Matrix Traveller...

So we could say, that this “Universe” and each individual “Species” involves Geometric Language, Yes ???

And therefore; this Universe could be said to be a “Communication System" whose base format is “Geometry” ???

Thank you once again for your response….

reply to post by randyvs

It is certain that I would have to be in a drawer
full of spoons to be the sharpest knife. That's for me to admit. Not for you to tell.
I'm sorry you feel so bad

Sorry you've lost me....

I think you have misunderstood my Communication, perhaps it's because of my dreadful English ???

I don't feel bad as you put it.... I asked a "Queston" and didn't tell you anything....

A question is Not an Answer, or is it ???

Guess I need to know more about Your language ???

____________________________

Evolution isn't supposed to explain how life began. If you ask me that's where you need a magician.
It took along time foir me to accept that evolution at least to a large extent does happen. I was very hard headed to that fact. It absolutly in no way means God does not exist.

The reason for the question was… to come to how "Awareness" develops through "Evolution"....

Not whether Evolution exists or Not ???

But to first discuss the development of “Awareness” through/by “Evolution” we first have to Identify “Awareness” which another ATS member picked up on… and gave me some informative advice, which I shall definitely take...

My thoughts have never been.... whether "Evolution" exists or Not.... but rather what is going through the "Evolutionary Process"... The "Cause" or the "Effect" ???

Is the "Effect" just the "expression" of the Cause ???

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Face Palm.

LOL

We have created a new species.

Immaculate creation: birth of the first synthetic cell

Reverse engineering, nothing new.

or did you mean watching Evolution happen in real time? We've done that and all you need to do is look up OBSERVED SPECIATION. We've watched one species diverge into two separate ones. Evolution is a directly observed reality and is not accepted on faith. In fact your claim that we believe doctors on faith is absolutely absurd because you contradict yourself a moment later - we have evidence that doctors know what they are doing so it requires no faith.

A well informed belief is one that doesn't require faith because it is backed by evidence.

Why can I have sex with an isolated population of human beings and still have kids?

reply to post by oozyism

Why can I have sex with an isolated population of human beings and still have kids?

Because they haven't been isolated long enough to be a different species. We've only been around about 200,000 years and most of that we spent in Africa together.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull

Because they haven't been isolated long enough to be a different species. We've only been around about 200,000 years and most of that we spent in Africa together.

How many generation did it take for those experiments you are talking about? for speciation to occur?

reply to post by oozyism


I don't know the specific generation times for any of the lab experiments but in the lab experiments my guess is they were replacing natural selection by selecting for certain genes.

Outside of a lab Evolution happens in varying degrees in a species. My guess is it takes longer for more complex lifeforms like us humans but then again look what just the last 200 years has done to us. We're taller on average, fatter on average, this is an evolutionary reaction to changes in how much food is readily available for us to consume (although it might also be epigenetic and not permanent). So evolution doesn't go at a constant rate...

The Talk Origins page has a whole section about the fruitfly experiments (section 5.3 I believe)

Talk Origins Speciation