A Machine That Turns Plastic Back Into Oil

reply to post by TheOracle


Fantastic ! The ultimate recycling. It does however beg the question : Which came first ? Oil or plastic . It as a 'chiken and egg' situation.

I sometimes wonder why organised crime syndicates went into the recycling and refuse business a long time ago. Did they anticipate that they would strike oil one day ? It all makes sense now ; all the billions of tons of rubbish which we are unsure how to dispose of. Yet all we need is some big furnaces; just like the core of the earth which produce the oil that is drilled.

[edit on 23-8-2010 by crowdedskies]

Every so often I see an idea pop up that isn't a flight of fancy, and this might be it. He's right in that plastic is made from oil, primarily anyway, and therefore contains the basic ingredients of oil.

The poster above who mentioned doing this on a stove is on the right track as well, but with one caveat: you have to heat the mixture in the absence of oxygen. Not only does the pot have to be sealable, but you have to use some sort of inert gas as well for maximum efficiency. The whole point is for the heat to break the hydrocarbon chains and the resulting lighter hydrocarbons to boil off as a gas. Any oxygen allows oxidation at the higher temps and therefore reduces the efficiency considerably.

Easy enough, though. You can buy argon at any welding supply.

I still have a couple of concerns over the technology:

• All of the plastic I saw him use was clean... no food residue, no labels, no chemical residue. I have yet to see a plastic container (aside from maybe a shopping bag) that is not in some way contaminated with residue form its prior use. The chemicals in that residue would be subject to the same forces used to break down the plastic, so what would happen to them? Would that not be a contaminant in the final product?
  
  
• Even the plastics themselves are not made entirely of hydrocarbons. Depending on the plastic itself, it could easily contain chlorine, sulfur, nitrogen, or even various metals. Some of these would no doubt be left behind as waste, but some (like chlorine) would no doubt end up as a contaminant in the gaseous phase itself.
  
  
• The residue which does not boil off into the gaseous stream woud be left behind as a sort of 'slag' in the machine itself, and this could be extremely difficult (or even impossible) to clean.
  
  
• I worry when anyone uses the word 'plastic' to describe a technical process. 'Plastic' is about as specific as 'fluid'... there are hundreds if not more types of plastic, each with its own chemical make-up and properties. ABS, styrofoam, PVC, CPVC, acrylic, polycarbonate, nylon, acetal, Teflon, PTFE, polyethylene, UMHW, polypropylene... the list is endless. I worry about a one-size-fits-all approach due to this. Each type of plastic will respond somewhat differently to the process, and most of the time the user of the plastic doesn't even know what type of plastic they are using. So how could one sort what one doesn't understand?

I like this idea; I really do! I just wonder what the possible effects of the contamination will be and how the various grades of 'plastic' will affect the process. Maybe this guy is on to something!

I have put this idea in my queue, right behind the other fourty-eleven-dozen items to check out. Maybe someday I'll actually get to it, if I don't die first or no one else does it before then.

That was a hint. We need more hands-on experimenters on here, guys.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by soficrow
reply to post by xxcalbier

 

You say there's a net energy loss - but don't provide numbers. ...How 'bout it?

You say there's no profit in this conversion but as posted above, the
Montgomery County Waste Transfer Station uses this or similar technology.

More information and references required please!!!

Still no numbers, no references. Why not?

Originally posted by xxcalbier
perpetual motion has been dis-proven so many times .No numbers I could give you would make you believe it is not possible to get more energy out of a system then you put into it.
Any more then I could ever convince you Obama Is NOT a alien reptile over lord.

Sounds like a cop-out to me.

BTW - I don't think, never thought, never even considered the idea that "Obama Is a alien reptile over lord" - so you do NOT have to convince me.

...Just asking you to back up your claims that there's no merit in converting plastic back to oil.




format oops.




[edit on 23-8-2010 by soficrow]

Originally posted by RainCloud
A good solution but not a very good step. But I do like the idea. Looking at lifetime of plastic this is good solution, but a better way is to use bio degradable plastic in the first place.

Its always break my heart to see floating plastic in the sea, nobody there to pick it up, thats why.

Biodegradable plastic is merely plastic held together by other polymers. That means that very small plastic particles are then free in the environment to be eaten by things like plankton(something that fuels the entire worlds ecosystem("The World Without US"[I don't remember the authors name]) personally I don't want to eat plastic. We need to just stop using plastic.

reply to post by Shadowed

We need to just stop using plastic.

The following items would not be possible without the use of polymers:

• Cellular phones
  
• Laptop or Netbook computers
  
• Iphones, Blackberries, etc.
  
• Underground power lines
  
• Electromagnet coils (at least efficient ones)
  
• Transformers (the efficient models)
  
• High-mileage vehicles (as in economy/hybrid)
  
• Most integrated circuits (includes MPUs in your computer, TV chips, controllers, digital clock chips, ad infinitum)
  
• High-capacity digital storage devices.
  
• Disposable diapers
  
• Disposable trash bags
  
• Lightweight storage boxes
  
• High-insulation UV-retardant windows
  
• Most types of insulation (asbestos excluded of course)
  
• A great deal of clothing
  
• Quite a few tools
  
• Bulletproof glass
  
• Bulletproof vests/armor
  
• LEDs and digital displays
  
• A large number of eyeglasses/contact lenses
  
• Practically any weatherproof lawn furniture
  
• ...and I could probably think of a few hundred more uses if I had time.

Now, if you prefer to go back to the days of automobiles getting 10 mpg, asbestos in the walls of your home, no instantaneous communication, trees being harvested in wholesale fashion for paper bags, furniture costing 50 times what it does today (relative to income), low-efficiency homes using many times the energy required today for heating and cooling, and electricity being a luxury, that's fine. I personally do not want such. I just think you should understand what you are advocating when you say we 'shouldn't use plastic'.

That's a pretty big statement.

TheRedneck

I bet that machine costs more than it's worth the general public but like recycling depot's we all need to get used to saving and returning goods. My biggest pet peeve is that I never see recycling bins outdoors‘. ie. gas stations, parks, walking paths. How many people see garbage pickers searching for bottles, think about it, it would only cost the community to put the bins out and they would pretty much clean themselves. Just an easy idea to reduce waste, instead of expecting people to take every bottle home with them so they can later recycle them just make it EASY for us.

It's a damn good invention, now we just need one to filter all the plastic back out of the ocean. A net won't work we have all seen what they can do.

edit
just wanted to add that I do see the odd outdoor recycling bin but in comparison to the number of garbage bins there are almost none. How many people bring a bag of chips or a chocolate bar to the park over something recyclable like a juice/water bottle

[edit on 23-8-2010 by GummB]

reply to post by TheRedneck


Just to elaborate on the types of plastics and your concerns.

Take BPA,(Bisphenolacetone), for instance. The feed for this plastic is Phenol, an Aromatic Hydrocarbon. Read the MSDS on this stuff. It is used by physicians to remove epidermal non-conformities,(Warts, Moles....). It will also eat a hole through your tissues if not neutralized, 36 square inches of contact with the human torso, will cause death due to the inability of timely neutralization. You can't neutralize it before it goes through you!

Phenol was transported initially in glass-lined pipes thru the factory that produced BPA until improvements in materials and electrical heat tracing automation and controls.

Take a look at BPA, we are already contaminated with this stuff since the 60's & 70's, with massive public saturation in the 80's.

BPA is in all can good food packaging and many other types of foodstuffs packaging.



spelling

[edit on 23-8-2010 by rougeskut]

[edit on 23-8-2010 by rougeskut]

There are different methods to produce these products. As someone posted earlier...why use oil in the first place???

Theres plenty of alternatives.....one of which is Hemp.

This doesnt effect anything......we have a plasitc rubbish dump twice the size of texas in the ocean. The damage is done, we need to be looking at different ways of doing the same thing, without the use of crude oil based plastics.

Learn from our mistakes...not add to them.

How many times can plastic be turned into oil??? surely it loses some of its properties everytime it is reduced back to oil???

Originally posted by RainCloud
A good solution but not a very good step. But I do like the idea. Looking at lifetime of plastic this is good solution, but a better way is to use bio degradable plastic in the first place.

Its always break my heart to see floating plastic in the sea, nobody there to pick it up, thats why.

Use your imagination!

What about creating some robotic ships with this device on it that goes around the oceans "harvesting" the plastic floating there?

Well i seen this before sort of ! in the late 80s

Anyone Remember Back to the Future! The ending ?

The Delorean Time Machine !

Mr Fusion Garbage as Fuel ! ? well Banana's and Beer BIO Fuel

Delorean Time Machine
en.wikipedia.org...

Back To The Future alternate ending

reply to post by rougeskut



Could you provide a link? The only information I could find on Bisphenol A was this:

Transport information

Non-hazardous for air, sea and road freight.

Personal protection

Safety glasses, adequate ventilation.

Maybe we're talking about two different things?

Based on a quick look at the chemical arrangement in the polymer Bisphenol A ((CH3)2C(C6H4OH)2), I would expect a heating/distilling process (which is what we are apparently discussing) to yield a mixture of CO2, benzene, ethylbenzene, methane, perhaps some methyl alcohol, and some carbon monoxide in small quantities. Not exactly high-octane fuel.

Which is my point. The end result depends on what kind of plastics you put into the machine. Certain polymers might yield great results, but others could yield just more mess.

TheRedneck


[edit on 8/23/2010 by TheRedneck]

Every time I see an invention that either gets us off oil or greatly reduces the price we’ll pay for it I know it aint goin nowhere.

reply to post by RainCloud


True but there is so much plastic in the world that is not bio degradable plastic and was made long before there was bio degradable plastic .

So IMHO this is a great step forward because we can clean up the old plastic as well as new non-bio degradable plastics.

reply to post by TheRedneck


* Cellular phones
Not sure but I think most of it could be replaced with hemp or other products
* Laptop or Netbook computers
Hemp again.
* Iphones, Blackberries, etc.
Hemp again.
* Underground power lines
Again.
* Electromagnet coils (at least efficient ones)
Not sure about this one
* Transformers (the efficient models)
Same here.
* High-mileage vehicles (as in economy/hybrid)
Hemp.
* Most integrated circuits (includes MPUs in your computer, TV chips, controllers, digital clock chips, ad infinitum)
Silicium and other
* High-capacity digital storage devices.
* Disposable diapers - cotton did the trick for centuries
* Disposable trash bags - Wouldnt need this if trash would be treated right
* Lightweight storage boxes
nobody died of a kilo more
* High-insulation UV-retardant windows
we wouldnt have the issue with UV to begin with if we would live our lives less para siting the earth.
* Most types of insulation (asbestos excluded of course)
glasswool is good enough with some straw.
* A great deal of clothing
I personally prefer cotton or hemp
* Quite a few tools
Can all be replaced. Downside is that companies would only sell a product once a lifetime... *except parts
* Bulletproof glass
Who needs guns?
* Bulletproof vests/armor
Who needs guns?
* LEDs and digital displays
Yep, these are handy
* A large number of eyeglasses/contact lenses
* Practically any weatherproof lawn furniture
* ...and I could probably think of a few hundred more uses if I had time.


Well it's clear that we need it to some extend but right now it's overkill and most products are really "throw-away".

Good news everyone, we have found a way to extend our fossle fuel for many decades to come...yay

-growls-

hooray for inefficient crappy energy methods...funny how when other alternative energy methods are being pushed to the front, the old dinosaur oil method keeps being reinvented to make us remain focused on it...pure coincidence no doubt..they wouldn't have been soaking us for all these years with no advancement on purpose...naa...they are friendly loving corporations.

reply to post by TheOracle


Simply awesome.

If you make one big enough that can still be transported you just deposit one on top of a landfill and go to work on the plastics.

Now, since the Earth seems to be warming from non-CO2 based causes there is all the more justification in using said technologies to produce the fuel that is needed right now. On top of this since biomass is already being used in a similar fashion to produce oil, a combination plant that processes both would really clean things up fast.

If the powers that be would allow such changes to happen, that is.

This thread is a gem, thanks.

Originally posted by TheRedneck
reply to post by rougeskut

Could you provide a link? The only information I could find on Bisphenol A was this:

Transport information

Non-hazardous for air, sea and road freight.

Personal protection

Safety glasses, adequate ventilation.

Maybe we're talking about two different things?

Not that rougeskut isn't doing a great job, but thought I'd jump in here.

Bisphenol A is an endocrine disruptor, which can mimic the body's own hormones and may lead to negative health effects.[23][24][25][26] Early development appears to be the period of greatest sensitivity to its effects.[27] Regulatory bodies have determined safety levels for humans, but those safety levels are currently being questioned or under review as a result of new scientific studies.[28][29]
In 2009 the The Endocrine Society released a scientific statement expressing concern over current human exposure to BPA.[30]

wiki: Bisphenol A Health Effects

More about Endocrine Disruptors:

MEN: You are being chemically castrated.

reply to post by no special characters

* Cellular phones
Not sure but I think most of it could be replaced with hemp or other products
* Laptop or Netbook computers
Hemp again.
* Iphones, Blackberries, etc.
Hemp again.
* Underground power lines
Again.

Nope, sorry. Unless the ingredients in the hemp are themselves turned into a polymer (after all, oil contains primarily hydrocarbons, the building blocks of all life), there is no way any organic substance could be used to produce the lightweight, compact, and insulating cases that allow us to have small lightweight electronic devices. It simply isn't possible with our present technology. Now if you propose using hemp to form a polymer chain material with the same properties as various plastics, what you are actually saying is "we don't need plastic, we need plastic instead".

* Electromagnet coils (at least efficient ones)
Not sure about this one

* Transformers (the efficient models)
Same here.

The insulation surrounding wires in a coil (commonly referred to as 'magnet wire' in the industry) must be of a microscopic thickness to allow for efficiency in transferring electrical energy into magnetic energy and vice versa. The only material we have that can handle appreciable voltage differentials in such a small thickness, and which will remain flexible enough to allow winding the coils, is polymers... plastic.

Also, to prevent energy loss (and overheating) through hysteresis, cores must be laminated with insulating layers to prevent electrical eddy currents. Plastic can accomplish this in a few thousandths of an inch; other materials may work, but only when applied in much greater thicknesses, increasing the overall size of the device. And I should mention that transformers are in practicaly every electrical device in your home (save a few large appliances that can handle the household voltage directly).

* Most integrated circuits (includes MPUs in your computer, TV chips, controllers, digital clock chips, ad infinitum)
Silicium and other

Silicium is Latin for silicon. Silicon is the stuff the chips themselves are made of internally, precisely 'doped' with various impurities to give it its needed properties. It is not a good insulator compared to plastic or ceramic, and since the chips themselves are made of doped silicon internally, there are inherent problems with using it (diffusion).

Ceramics are used for some chips, but ceramic is heavier and more costly. The majority of manufacturers have switched to plastic after a shortage occurred a few years back from China, the leading supplier of ceramic for chip packages. Using ceramic exclusively would place China in the position of being able to regulate who had technology and would add pounds to practically every piece of electronic equipment used. Sure, no one died from a "kilo more", but it is a fact that lightweight devices are more in demand than heavier devices. Cell phones themselves did not gain popularity for many years until their size and weight was reduced.

* Disposable diapers - cotton did the trick for centuries.

And cotton is still a viable alternative. I just don't like washing them out. Do you? Does anyone?

* Disposable trash bags - Wouldnt need this if trash would be treated right

To some point I agree with this. We could easily reduce our waste considerably if people would take a little extra time and use a little ingenuity. At my home, we rarely throw away anything that can be reused as another need... aluminum cans are kept for sale or possibly for smelting into aluminum sheet; large plastic bottles become funnels, hardware canisters, even piping or flotation devices if there is a need for such.

* High-insulation UV-retardant windows
we wouldnt have the issue with UV to begin with if we would live our lives less para siting the earth.

Yes, we would. There has been no appreciable increase in UV radiation in recorded history.

The reason UV radiation is typically blocked from windows is to reduce the amount of 'waste' (invisible) energy that enters the home through the windows and is then held in as heat. Too much solar heating uses up excess power in cooling the area down. Plastic (mylar, I believe) in UV-blocking windows saves energy.

* Most types of insulation (asbestos excluded of course)
glasswool is good enough with some straw.

'Glasswool' is a type of plastic.

Straw rots after a few years.

* A great deal of clothing
I personally prefer cotton or hemp

As do I, but some things cannot be made from cotton or hemp (unless it is converted into a polymer as mentioned above). Hosiery, for example.

* Quite a few tools
Can all be replaced. Downside is that companies would only sell a product once a lifetime... *except parts

You also forget that size and weight will be greatly increased. No more portable tools, unless you have Schwartzenegger arms.

And forget about cordless. Can't happen without polymers.

* Bulletproof glass
Who needs guns?
* Bulletproof vests/armor
Who needs guns?

I do, and you do, when faced with a criminal who has one and wishes to get you out of his way.

But that's a different thread. We have them. Period. Otherwise no one would be spending the kind of money they do for Kevlar vests and 2" thick polycarbonate glass. That stuff is expensive! I know; polycarbonate sheet is one of my favorite building materials and I keep some of it 'in stock'.

* LEDs and digital displays
Yep, these are handy

Yes, they are! And they're made of polymers.

Well it's clear that we need it to some extend but right now it's overkill and most products are really "throw-away".

I agree with that sentiment wholeheartedly! there is no need to use plastics for temporary uses. Unfortunately, however, people are intent on purchasing items that are wrapped in rolls of the stuff, and then throwing those rolls of stuff in the trash.

The only point I wanted to make is that we do need some plastic to maintain any semblance of our standard of living. And I do believe you now see that point.

TheRedneck


[edit on 8/23/2010 by TheRedneck]

reply to post by soficrow

Whoa-hoa!

Thanks for jumping in! I actually had scanned that page quickly and didn't notice that entire section! (That's what I get for trying to do 25 things at once. )

I'll give on the effects of Bisphenol A... it does appear to at least have a lot of potential for harm.

Thanks again for educating an old redneck.

TheRedneck

reply to post by TheRedneck


You're welcome.

Know what you mean about doing 25 things at once. Hurts.

...Keep up the good work and keep posting...