Revelation; The Beast and the Temple

reply to post by jmdewey60
"I think there is something going on behind the scenes, so to speak.
There was a Greek religion and it had to do with the afterlife. It was I suppose a mystery religion, meaning that it was known only to the initiates. History records someone being killed at what would seem to be a late date for such a thing, for revealing the secrets of this religion."
Like I had mentioned before I am not a scholar. Although many can draw from mystic religions or trains of thought that occur in many ancient text including the Bible. The writers of the new testament [Peter tells us that Paul sometimes is hard to understand] doesn't take away our ability to do so.

You are correct in that you cant take all literal.but ,it doesn't mean that what is being described is not a literal event .When we think of life and death we sometimes add metaphors to describe them . The recent story of the mother cuddling her 2 hour dead baby back to life is really hard to describe but was a literal event .

" Suppose a mystic who well knew the full implications of the more useful parts of this religion came up with a cover to make what would seem to be a totally new religion and coincidentally it works out well with Jewish mysticism." There seemed to be 2 groups of thought ie.the Sadducees and the pharisees . Now if your contending Paul wanted to start such a religion ,you couldn't find a more zealous person to be sure .But it seems that he didn't start out that way,as he admits to persecuting it in the beginning .

"but under no circumstances should my words be taken as having the same sort of meaning as would be understood by those rascally pagans."

There was no shortage of misunderstandings with either the pagans or the Christians either then or now . Thank you for your thoughts and I would ask if you are familiar with this site www.preteristarchive.com... Disraeli had sent it to me and I must thank him as I had it on my old pc but it died and had been looking for it for some time ...peace

reply to post by LAinhabitant

Being a perpetual salt covenant between God and David wouldn't the covenant have to continue? Doesn't Jesus have the keys that open the door to the throne room (veil) as High Priest in Revelations?

The only part of Revelation I really care for is when it says, "and there was no temple there, for God and the lamb are the temple, or something like that." All the gnarly stuff comes before that revelation.

It does cut to the heart of why I'm not a Christian. Jesus turned it all down, the whole son of David gig and king all of it.

Compare 2 Sam 24:1 and 1Chron. 21:1
Jesus was baptized then went into the desert to be tempted, offered all the kingdoms of the world, which is exactly what it would mean to be the son of David, the Messiah, emperor of the world with all the kingdoms of the world sending yearly tribute. He turned it down.

Christians say that Jesus is the son of David. I say there is no son of David. Jesus ended all that nonsense. He quoted Torah, in response to temptation, that has no David, or Jerusalem, or temple, no Jews for that matter, but the 12 tribes of Israel.

Jesus, during his ministry, mentioned people following the words of men rather than the word of God. He was attempting to restore what God wants rather than what man could "get away with", as was mentioned in a previous post. Man got away with kings and one nation demanding tribute from another. Jesus said things like, "it wasn't this way from the beginning".

I like your new signature. That is truly the mind of a reformer.



[edit on 29-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by jmdewey60

There was a Greek religion and it had to do with the afterlife. It was I suppose a mystery religion, meaning that it was known only to the initiates. History records someone being killed at what would seem to be a late date for such a thing, for revealing the secrets of this religion.

en.wikipedia.org...
Pythagoras of Samos (Greek: Ὁ Πυθαγόρας ὁ Σάμιος, O Pythagoras o Samios, "Pythagoras the Samian", or simply Ὁ Πυθαγόρας; c. 570-c. 495 BC[1]) was an Ionian Greek philosopher and founder of the religious movement called Pythagoreanism.

I heard that one of the secrets was the existence of irrational numbers (cannot be symbolized by one number divided by another). There is a story about one of the initiates revealing that secret and getting drowned as punishment.

Some influence still in Rosicrucianism and Freemasonry as well as "Pythagoras is revered as a prophet by the Ahl al-Tawhid or Druze faith along with his fellow Greek, Plato."


reply to post by the2ofusr1
Thanks for that link. I had no idea that there was a Preterist Idealism. It would sure be strange to discover people who have ideas similar to mine.



[edit on 29-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Now if your contending Paul wanted to start such a religion. . .

Let's say there is a Paul (you do realize that the changing of a person's name to begin with a P is the sign of a initiate into the mysteries. . .?) and another person, let's call him pseudo-Paul.
Paul says in 1Thess. "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."
Then this imaginary person, pseudo-Paul, says in 2Thess. ". . .letter allegedly from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord is already here."
How could people even contemplate such a thing, since the readers would have to realize they are not living "in the clouds"?
The writer of this letter we are considering had said, "when he comes to be glorified among his saints and admired on that day among all who have believed – ", giving a different sort of an account of events (than what we read earlier in 1Thes.), as if Jesus comes to join us and not the other way around. So, what sort of place are the saved supposed to inhabiting? It does not say but there is no hint that it would be anywhere other than where they already were, which would be the netherworld.


[edit on 29-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

Let's say there is a Paul (you do realize that the changing of a person's name to begin with a P is the sign of a initiate into the mysteries. . .?) and another person, let's call him pseudo-Paul.

I didn't know that either, about the P, the2ofusr1 doesn't claim scholarship. Are you saying both Paul and pseudo-Paul are mystery teachers who have adopted Christianity yet have differences of opinion regarding after-life? Maybe even the definition of Christ? That would imply two different underlying mysteries.

OP might get mad at off-topic discussion.

Hey, wait a minute, I go by the name P-Thena. What the dickens? Nice trick Thena played on me, I guess. A bunch of bare initiates running around being apostles and teachers and such?



[edit on 29-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena


In Samuel 24:1 and 1 Chronicles 21:1 we see where God allows Satan to tempt David. He had a desire to know the census so he could take pride in his military strength, glorify in its size and power. They were currently at peace so there was no need for a census. God allowed the temptation and David sinned and God punished him.

In Matthew 4:1-11 God allowed the temptation of Jesus three time by Satan by hunger (make bread) safety and security ( dare God to rescue you) and the need for power, achievement and significance ( worship me and I will give you power). Jesus refused all three times. He quoted Deuteronomy 8:3 - depend on God and Deuteronomy 6:16 - don't test God and Deuteronomy 6:13 don't compromise with evil. God rewarded Jesus for not giving in to the temptation to compromise with evil and worship Satan.


I liken it to God being the CEO of the company and Satan was working in the home-office but then was demoted to a small office. There Satan tried to get David to do something that was wrong and he did so God the CEO disciplined David. Satan also try to get Jesus to do something wrong and part of the deal was offering a brand new car. Jesus turned down the deal. The CEO found out and was very pleased when he realized what had happened and he gave Jesus a car. I don't see how Jesus turning down the deal to worship Satan and become the then and there king negates the ability of God to give him the keys to the Kingdom and make him a king.

Jesus says in Matthew16:19 "and I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ..."

Jesus is a descendant of David through Mary.

I don't believe that I need to be preoccupied with "religion" and what "denomination" of religion that I belong to. In Chapter 1 of Isaiah we see God frustrated with the people of Israel. He's sick of their sacrifices and burnt offerings because they are done for the wrong reason. I think it's more important to God that I try to live right, love and help others, attempt to be humble, respect Him and people and have a right attitude.

God also states in Jeremiah 17:9-10 The human heart is most deceitful and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I know! I, the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.

Seems like He looks more at actions than sitting in a pew because it's tradition.





[edit on 30-8-2010 by LAinhabitant]

reply to post by pthena
The P thing may not be relevant but it is something to think about. Ptolemy supposedly got the right for his name from the Egyptian mystics who initiated him.
I don't think the questions ( to summarize; the writer of 2Thess. 1 probably borrowed the "man of sin" theme from a familiar O.T. story, and 2 demonstrates a different understanding of the afterlife) I am raising are too far off topic because it seems to me that there is a lot of end time theology that takes the support of a couple verses found in a so-called letter of Paul which is highly suspicious of being a fake.
I guess fundamentalists are the type of people who buy into this speculative eschatology maybe because they do not allow themselves to see the real problems involved with the piecing together of what we call the Bible.
There is this nice verse about all scripture is good for... and on... that people use to back up this mentality without considering that it was meant to say that we should not discard the Old Testament, and it was written by someone who I doubt regarded his own writing to be in the same class and that he meant himself to be canonized and his words etched in stone, and I mean the real Paul and not the forgers, who very well may have liked for their writing to be immortalized.



[edit on 29-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by LAinhabitant
I'm a bit burned out now. I don't know when I'll feel like thinking again. I actually started my Symposium thread as a general free-for-all type of hangout.

reply to post by LAinhabitant

I don't see how Jesus turning down the deal to worship Satan and become the then and there king negates the ability of God to give him the keys to the Kingdom and make him a king.

Jesus was a human being, like Adam, David and Solomon. I think Jesus died and that is normal for all humans. Even if he never did one action in his life that served the kingdom of Satan, he would still be under the curse of sin. Now God loved Jesus and he was the fulfilment of the most closely held desires of the holy spiritual universe. God allowed for Jesus to be put to death regardless of the fact that such a person as Jesus could have easily taken the throne and been a righteous ruler, if he had survived the persecution that was mounted against him.
Our adversary is not one to be easily overcome by the mass of humanity and the ultimate fulfilment of salvation of the world requires the complete and final end of Satan. The obstruction to that had been the appeal to the mercy of justice that Satan had advocated towards himself for a pardon. How can that claim be supported in the light of the cross, where God's own declared Son was allowed to die?
Jesus said he was the Son of Man. Daniel said he saw one like the Son of Man ascending to be given authority. So Jesus became a different and fully holy thing to rule spiritually till the change comes to us all.


[edit on 29-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by pthena


See you there. I know what you mean about not wanting to think at times.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I appreciate your response and enjoy your posts although at times I have some difficulty following them. My brain has comprehension problems at times it seems.

Do you also think Jesus did not fulfill the promise of God to David?

I understand the Kingdom as being spiritual. We can choose to make Jesus Lord or not. My King doesn't subjugate His people, but says "follow me", bring forth spiritual fruits by works, and live a life of humility, with charity and brotherly love. Transform your inner person and above all, love.

reply to post by LAinhabitant

I think the purpose of the New Testament was to point out that all prophecy has been fulfilled by Jesus. What that would mean on a practical level is that we should not be looking for another Messiah because the best one we could get we already have.
I have the feeling that we could have annihilated ourselves already and could be doing it to ourselves right now, so we really don't need to go out of our way to bring about an apocalypse.
God will not allow there to be nobody left alive and will intervene personally. But it is not like it will be this great thing for all the believers to enjoy, for one thing by the time it happens there will not be a whole lot of believers left.
On the other hand, it would not be beyond the possibility for God to make another planet for us to live on, not that I think that is the plan, but we need to keep in mind that God is not limited by lack of ability.


[edit on 30-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

Would the "Beast of Revelation" also be the "king who occupies the Temple", as found in other parts of the Bible?
And if so, in what way? That's the connection I'm going to be considering.

The beast of Revelation is non other than Satan himself, physically visible. He is the one whole will claim, "I am the Christ" and will deceive many. He will take his seat on the throne located in the inner rooms of the 3rd temple of Jerusalem.

Take note that they are 2 beasts of Revelation. The first beast is Satan who takes the throne pretending to be Christ, the second beast is a priest or a pope who will act on behalf of the 1st beast. Satan cannot act yet for he is restrained for a moment. He needs someone to do his bidding on his behalf.

Everyone on earth will be deceived, except those whose names were written in the Book of Life. Everyone will think that this is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and whosoever will not worship him or receive his mark will be executed.

Originally posted by BoehringerIngelheim
[

The beast of Revelation is non other than Satan himself, physically visible. He is the one whole will claim, "I am the Christ" and will deceive many. He will take his seat on the throne located in the inner rooms of the 3rd temple of Jerusalem.

Take note that they are 2 beasts of Revelation.
The first beast is Satan
the second beast is a priest or a pope who will act on behalf of the 1st beast.

Everyone on earth will be deceived, except those whose names were written in the Book of Life. Everyone will think that this is the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ and whosoever will not worship him or receive his mark will be executed.

sorry.... i read the prophetic outline very differently....

the first beast, could be a figure like a Lincoln/ JFK/Hitler/Marx/Lennin etc

the 2nd beast is the incarnation of the Lucifer...as this personage can cause miracles, make fire fall from the sky, give the 'image' life & speech...
now that is more than just what a False Prophet can do or be..., to me the " False Prophet" is the Satan or Lucifer...who resurrects or creates a lifelike image of the 1st Beast, from the sea


After all, the 2nd beast goes about making a world system to mark the masses & finding & slaying the followers of 'Christ'... those are exceedingly accomplished policies and acts to be carried out within a matter of Days!...
a right-hand-man of the 1st beast would not have that much power or authority.



the 1st 'beast' comes before the 2nd 'beast', i.e. the 1st beast creates a system (perhaps communism/socialism/nazism/state-ism)
the 2nd 'beast' impliments that system again (a 4th Reich?) by authority of the 1st 'Beast'
so in my view, this is part of the great deception...
that there will be the 1st & 2nd beasts in a joint leadership of the final AC empire


afterthought:
the mortal head wound given Stateism was the division of Germany (Reich)... the mortal head-wound recovery was the reunification of Germany,
hence the 3rd Reich can once again rise for its 1,000 year reign
(under the directorship of the 2nd beast, from the land)
America is fast becoming that 'Statism' ideology/ fascist-corporate-govt

[edit on 8-9-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by St Udio
afterthought:
the mortal head wound given Stateism was the division of Germany (Reich)... the mortal head-wound recovery was the reunification of Germany,
hence the 3rd Reich can once again rise for its 1,000 year reign
(under the directorship of the 2nd beast, from the land)
America is fast becoming that 'Statism' ideology/ fascist-corporate-govt

I would concur with this suggestion that the "mortal wound" could be something inflicted on a state.
I would only add that if you're going to go that far in identifying the "first Beast" with a political state, you may as well go the whole hog.
Revelation ch13 does not make any real distinction between the head suffering a mortal wound (v5) and the Beast suffering a mortal wound (v12)



[edit on 8-9-2010 by DISRAELI]

@St Udio

I think your sources are certainly not biblical. There is no such thing as a 1,000 year rule of the 3rd reich.

reply to post by BoehringerIngelheim

I would suggest reading my earlier two threads on the two Beasts;

The Beast-a world-state

The Beast- great leader



[edit on 8-9-2010 by DISRAELI]

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by BoehringerIngelheim

 

I would suggest reading my earlier two threads on the two Beasts;

The Beast-a world-state

The Beast- great leader



[edit on 8-9-2010 by DISRAELI]

Thank you for the links. I'll read what you have to say. My view is that these 2 beasts will rule together. One sitting in throne in the 3rd temple of Jerusalem pretending to be Christ and one acting on his behalf - a priest or a pope. The coming of the first beast will be something never been seen by modern man. He will be coming out of a portal of some kind. The Bible mentioned that this beast will come out from the bottomless pit. This pit is simply some kind of a pit without a bottom or some kind of a wormhole - a connection from another very distant area of the universe.

Originally posted by BoehringerIngelheim
@St Udio

I think your sources are certainly not biblical. There is no such thing as a 1,000 year rule of the 3rd reich.

indeed there is...Hitler himself swore the 3rd Reich would last 1,000 years
the history channel just showed a segment concerning Hitlers sister and the clip of the Reich lasting 1000 yrs was played on TV just yesterday...

google it up my friend... along with the Vril 'force' which gave channeled technology to the NAZIs (vril most likely demonic)

RE:

The Rise - Das Dritte Reich - ThinkQuest 2004 - Team Revelation

The Third Reich was sometimes also referred to as the "Thousand Year Reich", as it was intended by its founder, Adolf Hitler, who believed it would last 1,000 years, as ...
library.thinkquest.org/04apr/01058/low/index.html - Cached

[edit on 8-9-2010 by St Udio]

Originally posted by St Udio

Originally posted by BoehringerIngelheim
@St Udio

I think your sources are certainly not biblical. There is no such thing as a 1,000 year rule of the 3rd reich.

indeed there is...Hitler himself swore the 3rd Reich would last 1,000 years
the history channel just showed a segment concerning Hitlers sister and the clip of the Reich lasting 1000 yrs was played on TV just yesterday...

google it up my friend... along with the Vril 'force' which gave channeled technology to the NAZIs (vril most likely demonic)

The future will be a theocracy where the so called pagan Holy Roman empire will certainty rise again to unify all religion of the world as one.

Yes, perhaps it will be like a 'reichish' rule because Hitler, for one is a pagan occult practitioner. Just like Hitler who slaughtered the Jews, we will be seeing again a repeat history where this time, the Christians will be the ones imprisoned, culled, persecuted, executed, slaughtered and flogged in front of the synagogue.

This will not be a 1000 year reign, but only a short time of 3.5 years.