Revelation; The Beast and the Temple

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Further to my first response to you;
I've just discovered (see the post above this one) that the word "falling away", found in the Thessalonians passage, is also used in 1 Maccabees to describe the events relating to the original historical Abomination. So there's a direct verbal connection between the two which I wasn't aware of.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Anyway, this is a fairly formidable consensus in favour of APOSTASIA being something hostile to God.

I don't try to hide the fact that I'm an apostate myself. Sometimes that gets obscured. After reading some of the writings of Rabbi Chaim Richman of the Temple Institute however, being apostate from the G.d he advances the cause of doesn't alarm me one bit.

I am also apostate from the god of the Athanasian Creed, and the Canons of Dort.

[edit on 27-8-2010 by pthena]

Pthena I follow what you are saying ,but am not sure about the boycott .[rebellion is a better word] . 2 thes.. 2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness15 is already at work. However, the one who holds him back16 will do so until he is taken out of the way, [ the one who holds him back ,could be also in control of the Christians .]

If the restrainer of the man of sin takes away his restraint ,then the ones being left to deal with the destruction are left .Who is being taken away, the man of sin,or the one that is doing the restraining ??

You said "If the true followers quit providing cover, then, the evil one could be fully exposed."...... But if the restrainer was to be removed with the Christians . No need for a boycott ,or anything here for that matter .

27-8-2010 by DISRAELI] roup
" Anyway, this is a fairly formidable consensus in favour of APOSTASIA being something hostile to God" .... It seems that you can actually find true Christians travelling around with fake ones,: or is that the other way around ? Well one thing seems to be true is that there is one that is restraining both the apostate as well as the man of sin .Maybe there are other groups as well .

reply to post by the2ofusr1

Pthena I follow what you are saying ,but am not sure about the boycott .[rebellion is a better word] . 2 thes.. 2:7 For the hidden power of lawlessness15 is already at work. However, the one who holds him back16 will do so until he is taken out of the way, [ the one who holds him back ,could be also in control of the Christians .]

I wrote walkout and boycott so as to distinguish from what could be taken as incitement to violence. Some may choose to stay and attempt reform from the inside, the more difficult task, others just walk away.

It could be so, if an angel or angels is restraining the power of lawlessness, it could be similar to the angels of the various churches. I don't know anything about these angels. Rev 7:1-4, Rev 9:13-15

If the restrainer of the man of sin takes away his restraint ,then the ones being left to deal with the destruction are left .Who is being taken away, the man of sin,or the one that is doing the restraining ??

You said "If the true followers quit providing cover, then, the evil one could be fully exposed."...... But if the restrainer was to be removed with the Christians . No need for a boycott ,or anything here for that matter .

The pre-mid-tribulation rapture teachers usually say the Holy Spirit holds back the man of lawlessness from being as bad as he can be. Then the rapture, and thereby the raptured ones go away with their portion of Holy Spirit, thus the restraint is gone, and the lawless one does act as bad as he can, displaying his true colors.

Back in the old days, early church, there were very many different groups of believers who had wildly different teachings. Most of these groups didn't continue to exist. The writings from and to one group could be incomprehensible to another group. I don't accept the Pauline authorship of 2 Thess. but consider it as a writing from a different school of thought, which I don't understand. For all I know, it could refer to the Jewish rebellion against Rome. What I do understand is that if I see something very destructive going on, I should not only withhold support but also encourage others to do the same.

Consider the sign of Jonah. A prophesied destruction does not have to happen. People shouldn't take a fatalistic view, such as, "well, it's going to happen anyway." No, it doesn't have to happen. And neither should people be upset if others are spared.

In fact, the more I think about it the more likely it seems that if the author heard that Jesus had told of the destruction of the temple as per Matthew 24 as something to happen before the end, that would explain why the letter of 2 Thess. was written. Jewish rebellion, Roman retaliation, destruction of temple. Tied in with Daniel 12:7. As such, the letter is a relic bearing witness to what Christians thought before the destruction of the temple, of historic significance, but that's about it.



[edit on 28-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena
ABISHAG THE SHUNAMMITE
Solomon is God, Adonijah attempted to make himself above God by having a wife only allowed to a god.
He forfeited his life by making the request.
Once he was killed, the hindrance was removed so that Joab, the "man of sin", who stood in the tent holding the horns of the altar, could be struck down where he stood.
2Thess. "not everyone has faith"



[edit on 28-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by DISRAELI


Here's an interesting article on apostasia.

www.dbts.edu...

reply to post by LAinhabitant

Thank you for supplying that link.
Unfortunately something in the way my browser works prevents me from accessing PDF files. I just can't read them. But thank you anyway, I'm sure it will be valuable to others.

reply to post by pthena


Pthena:

In fact, the more I think about it the more likely it seems that if the author heard that Jesus had told of the destruction of the temple as per Matthew 24 as something to happen before the end, that would explain why the letter of 2 Thess. was written. Jewish rebellion, Roman retaliation, destruction of temple. Tied in with Daniel 12:7. As such, the letter is a relic bearing witness to what Christians thought before the destruction of the temple, of historic significance, but that's about it.

Perhaps the day of the Lord spoken of in the prior verses is not an end-times scenerio but was actually speaking of Gods judgement on the Jewish people when he allowed the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD,the fall of Jerusalem and the nation for their unbelief. The Prophets made reference to the day of the Lord,

This is another interesting study.
faculty.gordon.edu...


JMDEWEY60- nice pattern!

reply to post by the2ofusr1

On the subject of "the restrainer", my daily reading has just brought me to this passage in Jeremiah ch6 vv10-11;
"The word of the Lord is to them an object of scorn...Therefore I am full of the wrath of the Lord, I am weary of holding it in".
In all the translations that I have at hand, this portion is punctuated as the speech of the prophet.
Very suggestive.

reply to pthena
" Consider the sign of Jonah. A prophesied destruction does not have to happen. People shouldn't take a fatalistic view, such as, "well, it's going to happen anyway." No, it doesn't have to happen. And neither should people be upset if others are spared."

For much of my early teachings I found myself sort of given 1 or 2 ways of looking at things .The sign of Jonah was either that he was in the whales belly for 3 days or that at the hearing of the message the people of Nineveh would repent . It Seems that Jonah knew they would repent but he didnt want them to.

2thes starts address from Paul .I am far from being a scholar so I usually take the simple approach . 1:10 when he comes to be glorified among his saints and admired on that day among all who have believed – and you did in fact believe our testimony. [ on that day among all who have believed ] The author is looking forward to a day in the future .

"Back in the old days, early church, there were very many different groups of believers who had wildly different teachings. Most of these groups didn't continue to exist." There are more groups today , and as much disagreement as well. The early groups were persecuted out of existence.

"The pre-mid-tribulation rapture teachers usually say the Holy Spirit holds back the man of lawlessness from being as bad as he can be." I often find myself thinking in that vein,so its not much of a surprise I express myself that way.

My above post may seem rather enigmatic so I should fill in some.
Pthena said he did not know the language of 2 Thess. but I think it is something that can be easily found. Something analogous to the current situation that the writer of the letter perceived as being, that could be found in the traditions of the Old Testament.
There is a couple odd things about the letter, one is this title, Lord of Peace, the second is this thing about "glory".
Solomon was speaking like a Lord of Peace, in the manner of being the dispenser of it.
1Kings 2:33 May Joab and his descendants be perpetually guilty of their shed blood, but may the Lord give perpetual peace to David, his descendants, his family, and his dynasty.
Substitute in glory for dynasty.

[edit on 28-8-2010 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by DISRAELI

Unfortunately something in the way my browser works prevents me from accessing PDF files. I just can't read them. But thank you anyway, I'm sure it will be valuable to others.

You can right click the link and select "save as" to download, then use a pdf reader such as Foxit Reader which is free. That's assuming a MS operating system.



[edit on 28-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena

Thank you, I might try that.
I haven't been very adventurous in IT matters.

reply to post by LAinhabitant

Perhaps the day of the Lord spoken of in the prior verses is not an end-times scenerio but was actually speaking of Gods judgement on the Jewish people when he allowed the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD,the fall of Jerusalem and the nation for their unbelief. The Prophets made reference to the day of the Lord,

Jesus himself used words like, "I leave unto you your house desolate", which I take as referring to Isaiah 22:20-25, (key to house of David, what he opens none can shut, what he shuts no one can open. All the glory of the family hangs on him, the peg. Peg breaks, it all smashes down) When Jesus broke that was the end of the house of David. So I think that is the way Jesus understood it.

I don't look forward to any revival of the house of David. If such a thing happens I will oppose that too.

On the Day of the Lord, as used by the prophets has much Hyperbole, exaggeration, such as an invasion against a village elicits images of all life on earth gone, the sky is black, even the birds of prey cannot be found. When it's just one village effected. But on the other hand, to an inhabitant of that village it is that serious.

Americans have a habit of thinking something isn't serious unless they see it in their own neighborhood. Blindness, I say. When American bombs fall on peoples houses, it is no small matter, even though you can't see it in an American city.

reply to post by jmdewey60

ABISHAG THE SHUNAMMITE
Solomon is God, Adonijah attempted to make himself above God by having a wife only allowed to a god.
He forfeited his life by making the request.
Once he was killed, the hindrance was removed so that Joab, the "man of sin", who stood in the tent holding the horns of the altar, could be struck down where he stood.

The Ever Virgin Abishag! Too holy for anyone but a god. The Davidic kings as son of god goes back pretty far. And so it seems the imagery of "supporters of pretenders to the throne" being cut down, with no appeal to save them, even the horns of the alter.

Jesus made mention of all the blood shed

LK 11:47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, `I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.

It will be interesting as to who we identify as Babylon the Great in Revelation, seeing how the same curse for bloodshed seems to be repeated.

One question for those who support ethnic cleansing in Jurusalem: Just how many times must the "eternal" city be rebuilt?

[edit on 28-8-2010 by pthena]

Great thread, S+F.
If there's any truth to the bible, in my mind, you'll be the one to find it.

reply to post by the2ofusr1

2thes starts address from Paul .I am far from being a scholar so I usually take the simple approach . 1:10 when he comes to be glorified among his saints and admired on that day among all who have believed – and you did in fact believe our testimony. [ on that day among all who have believed ] The author is looking forward to a day in the future .

The typical lay-out of pre-trib or mid-trib rapture is a "secret rapture" of believers and then 3 1/2 years or 7 years later the "visible" return, when anti-christ gets killed or otherwise punished.

So if you ask the question: "did the author of 2 Thess believe this type of lay-out of events?" Look in Chapter 1: 5-10. Evidently, this was a persecuted group of people. The relief from trouble and punishment for the trouble makers is to occur simultaneously when "the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire..." Unbelievers shut out on the same day that the glory is revealed in believers.

I would conclude that the author didn't hold any view of rapture as a separate event.

On the Fiery return for mass destruction of human life: not all of the early Christian writers depict the return or appearance of the Christ in such terms. Maybe only 2 Thess. and Revelation, maybe 2 Peter and Jude. Other than those, those sorts of images aren't presented.


[edit on 28-8-2010 by pthena]

reply to post by pthena
Thank you for your reply,pthena . I see the comming of the Lord as ...In a moment,in the twinkling of a eye ,we who are here will be changed . You could describe that as a rapturous event .

1thes.4:13 Now we do not want you to be uninformed,14 brothers and sisters,15 about those who are asleep,16 so that you will not grieve like the rest who have no hope. 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that17 God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians.18 4:15 For we tell you this by the word of the Lord,19 that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not go ahead of those who have fallen asleep. 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel,20 and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 4:17 Then we who are alive, who are left,21 will be suddenly caught up22 together23 with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. 4:18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The ones described as asleep here I take as believers that have died .barried and us who are alive waiting for their resurection and our change . peace



[edit on 28-8-2010 by the2ofusr1]

reply to post by pthena


Being a perpetual salt covenant between God and David wouldn't the covenant have to continue? Doesn't Jesus have the keys that open the door to the throne room (veil) as High Priest in Revelations?

reply to post by the2ofusr1
I think there is something going on behind the scenes, so to speak.
There was a Greek religion and it had to do with the afterlife. It was I suppose a mystery religion, meaning that it was known only to the initiates. History records someone being killed at what would seem to be a late date for such a thing, for revealing the secrets of this religion.
Suppose a mystic who well knew the full implications of the more useful parts of this religion came up with a cover to make what would seem to be a totally new religion and coincidentally it works out well with Jewish mysticism. This way it could be broadcast to the world without the stigma of being traitors to be reviled.
So underneath Earth's surface is this other world where the souls of the dead go. The less favored by the gods souls have a less than materially real existence in a shadow land while the blessed have a life-like existence with a lighter body and live in the bright fields of Alysia.
The New Testament is full of figurative language based on the old religion and never goes about saying something like, "of course this should not be taken literally, but I am restrained by the nature of the Greek language, and have to use these words we are given, but under no circumstances should my words be taken as having the same sort of meaning as would be understood by those rascally pagans."