Revelation; The Beast and the Temple

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher

Originally posted by Baloney
The Antichrist was NERO CAESAR, the END.

there are still many other possibilites of who or what the beast is and may be. your response was a little single minded i think.

Yes, isn't it odd how the determined unbelievers can sometimes be as blinkered as any stubborn believer.
I did a different thread on the various possibilities of "666".
Thank you for your encouragement.
I hope you're right in the suggestion that I'm helping to keep ATS fun. I would like to think so.

hey dis...i know youve seen me post this video before but i want to put it here because it fits and its also one of the best videos that ive seen that explains what we are talking about. all of you please check it out if you havent......

this is part 1 of 6





part 2 of 6





part 3 of 6




part 4 of 6




part 5 of 6




part 6 of 6

reply to post by Funkydung

Thanks for those videos.
I think I did start looking at them before.
(Though I may have remarked at the time that I prefer reading things than hearing them spoken on video, simply because it's quicker)





[edit on 23-8-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by DISRAELI


Enjoying the thread Disreali, hard to argue with most of your info.

Would like to add my thoughts, i beleive 2012 marks the end of a
reoccuring cycle. The progression of the equinox is coming into line
with the planetary alignment and the suns positioning with the centre of our galaxy.



This is the catalist for a massive upheaval of the earths crust and possible
tilting of the earths axis, changing land masses and oceans as we know them.

Could this be an explanation for a beast rising from the sea?

Originally posted by lestweforget
This is the catalist for a massive upheaval of the earths crust and possible
tilting of the earths axis, changing land masses and oceans as we know them.
Could this be an explanation for a beast rising from the sea?

Thank you for your thoughts.
I did a thread on the "Beast from the sea".
I think the sea in Revelation is actually meant symbolically, meaning the "source of evil". The image goes back to the beginning of Genesis, where the waters of the sea are supposed to be part of the original waters of the "abyss".
Then Daniel's vision described four kingdoms in the form of four beasts coming up "out of the sea" (meaning the source of evil, again), and I think Revelation ch13 is just echoing that.
So I took it to be a symbolic picture describing a great world-state.

reply to post by DISRAELI

Perhaps I ought to add that this discussion was originally drafted as my interpretation of Revelation ch11 vv1-2 (some signs of this line of thought still remain in a couple of lines). But I wasn't able to justify limiting those verses to this theme, so I loosened the connection. Ch11 will be discussed properly another time.

Before serious engagement in this thread I must first introduce the name of Desmond Ford, a theological giant in the Seventh-day Adventist Denomination, a bit too much of a giant to be long tolerated within a parochial group. I bring up his name in order to give him full credit for "The Apotelesmatic Priciple" with respect to prophecy interpretation.

en.wikipedia.org...
Ford has expounded the "apotelesmatic principle" - that there can be multiple fulfillments of prophecy. He no longer supports the year-day principle of prophetic interpretation, although he had supported it earlier in his commentary on Daniel.

If you read the wikipedia article, you will note the mention of Robert Brinsmead, a lay theologian also from Australia. I was among his group, after he dropped the perfectionism and was concentrating on teaching Justification by Faith as opposed to concepts of righteousness through sanctification as taught in the SDA denomination at the time, more similar to Roman Catholic doctrine than Protestant.

"In April[1976] a group of church leaders and theologians including Ford met in Palmdale, California to discuss the meaning of righteousness by faith. Ford was the "center of attention", and the resulting document known as the "Palmdale statement".

In early 1980, on my way to the Philippines, I stopped by the California office of Brinsmead's Magazine and had a chat with the associate editor. A chat most likely recorded without my knowledge or consent. It consisted mainly of my views on Covenant Theology and certain inconsistencies I had detected in Brinsmead's Theology.

In 1983, upon returning from the Philippines, I attended a Brinsmead seminar in which his "new and improved" views were presented. Certain notables were slapping me on the back for being the one responsible for the new views. But to my shock, I discovered the views to not be mine, but rather views adopted in order to side-step my views. That's the last dealings I had with that group.

Just a little note: underline mine.

en.wikipedia.org...
He believed Paul tried unsuccessfully to unite the two groups (Romans 14:5-7). This historical approach led him to reject the Sabbath. He published Sabbatarianism Re-examined in 1981 attacking the Sabbath. This led to a response by Desmond Ford, and then further dialogue between the pair in Spectrum magazine. Ford described it as the strongest case against the Sabbath he had ever seen, also describing Brinsmead as "a very intelligent man.

I'm the guy he got that "strongest case against the Sabbath he [Ford] had ever seen" from. And no, my name does not appear in the article, or in the book.

That little autobio should put you on your guard, for I do possess some small skill in polemics, and since I am now an apostate and a pagan (outsider), I am in a position to direct my skills toward Christianity itself. My intention is not to overthrow Christianity or replace it with something else, but rather to point out the great danger it is faced with today.

According to Ford's apotelesmatatic principle, prophecies are repeatedly fulfilled, not exactly the same way, so one to one comparisons are not required or even desired in issues concerned with the present. It is part of the nature of Christianity that each generation views itself as the last generation, the generation that looks forward to witnessing the "final climax", the "end of history". I believe that Jesus set it up that way, and intends for it to be that way. With this view, the Church then has a sense of urgency, and should continuously be re-examining itself for the inroads of harmful error.

Growth and maturity in understanding are to be encouraged

1CO 3:5 What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe--as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

Corruptions and turning away to other Christ's are to be exposed. It is well that the OP has identified the temple of God as the believers individually and collectively. For I shall endeavor to point out two false temples. One that calls itself Christian but is not, and the other which the first is attempting to have made out of stone.

Let's deal with 666 right off the bat. No calculations, no fancy decoding, just a quick word search will do.

1KI 10:14 The weight of the gold that Solomon received yearly was 666 talents, 15 not including the revenues from merchants and traders and from all the Arabian kings and the governors of the land."

1KI 10:23 King Solomon was greater in riches and wisdom than all the other kings of the earth. 24 The whole world sought audience with Solomon to hear the wisdom God had put in his heart. 25 Year after year, everyone who came brought a gift--articles of silver and gold, robes, weapons and spices, and horses and mules.

In further posts I shall endeavor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Christian Zionism is the anti-Christ of today, and that their mad schemes of having a stone temple built in Jerusalem endangers the existence of all life on earth. If you detect my manner of speech as accusatory, you are correct in assuming that I am the accuser in this instance. But I do not accuse the true temple of God, but rather the false.

With that, I shall retire for now.



[edit on 24-8-2010 by pthena]

Originally posted by DISRAELI
Would the "Beast of Revelation" also be the "king who occupies the Temple", as found in other parts of the Bible?
And if so, in what way?
That's the connection I'm going to be considering.

Wrong word. It's the "Master of the Temple."
And the Master holds the reigns that controls and directs the Beast (network).
And it is we the people who give power to the Beast and bring it to life because we give it our consent.

It is not something in the future. It is something that is current and present and has been very silent, subtle and cunning in the past, as it has built momentum.

We have the power to stop it with only 4 words. "I do NOT consent."

Originally posted by pthena
In further posts I shall endeavor to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Christian Zionism is the anti-Christ of today, and that their mad schemes of having a stone temple built in Jerusalem endangers the existence of all life on earth.

Thank you for that contribution.
I wasn't in a position to talk about the plans of Christian Zionism in the OP because I know almost nothing about the movement apart from occasional allusions on this site. You know from the end of the OP that I see no necessity to expect a new physical temple.

reply to post by DISRAELI


very interesting read and view~! I would agree with your interpretation that this has to do with the church body as a whole and the dictation of what can and can NOT be preach, taught and order of worship should be according to what the 'beast/anti-Christ' deems so..

THAT in itself would be setting yourself up as God, wouldn't it? It is up to the preacher/pastor/denomination that receives 'unctions' on what should be preached.

As many times as I've read Revelations, it occurred to me that what John was seeing was NOT a physical occurrence.. but spiritual one perhaps. We all think in the physical because we are physical beings, it's just natural.

Look at Nicodemus when he said, " how can I enter my mothers womb again?" when Jesus outright said he must be born again...BAM.. then said..

Jesus: "Aren't you a master of Israel, and you still don't know these things?"

Nicodemus was thinking physically.

How many times did Jesus reference the physical world around us to give us an example what a spiritual principle was like.

However, DISRAELI, they ARE building the temple as we speak.. and that says a lot as well..

Originally posted by Komodo
As many times as I've read Revelations, it occurred to me that what John was seeing was NOT a physical occurrence.. but spiritual one perhaps. We all think in the physical because we are physical beings, it's just natural.

I certainly agree with that. It's often occurred to me that the attraction of the more physical interpretation is similar to the attraction of "the letter of the law" as against "the spirit of the law". It is part of the cast of the human mnd to prefer things we can "take hold of".

However, DISRAELI, they ARE building the temple as we speak.. and that says a lot as well..

Is that what's happening? I thought they hadn't yet got beyond the "hoping to" stage?

reply to post by DISRAELI

AS far as the interpretation for John's own time is concerned, I'm coming to the view that;
The Harlot is Rome the city
The first Beast is Rome the Empire
The second Beast is the Emperor.
Applying the interpretation to a later time then involves distributing those three concepts.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, the harlot & the 2 beasts may once have been Rome/Empire/Emperor...in John's moment in time,


but taking into account the principle examined in this post:

RE: www.abovetopsecret.com...

According to Ford's apotelesmatatic principle, prophecies are repeatedly fulfilled, not exactly the same way, so one to one comparisons are not required or even desired in issues concerned with the present.
It is part of the nature of Christianity that each generation views itself as the last generation, the generation that looks forward to witnessing the "final climax", the "end of history".

yes, its cyclic. & its not just scripture prophecies its history & myth & pantheonsof gods and heroes...as outlined in 'Hamlets Mill'...the Visions of John are morphing into;

Harlot=socio-political-economic 'System',
(which through the ages included organized religions like Papacy/Protestents/Pagans/Synagog of Satan-- with all their incarnations like the Inquisition, the continuing Pharmacy of natures drugs, aka 'spirits')


First Beast=this will be an 'empire' built on a cult of Personality, a singular individual

2nd Beast=the False Prophet, (the Pope is the Vicar, The Maitreya is the bringer of the word ~which might equate to Prophet~
there are several religions in the world which have a 'Prophet'='Servant'
of the GOD as their messenger, so i'd look at one of those powerful religions to be the source of the end-time FalseProphet from the Land,
who will perform miracles and wields the Authority to cause all to receive a 'Mark')
the list may include a prominant future Bahai, a Baba/Mehr BaBa, a Mahdi, a modern Buddah, perhaps even a Jesuit or a Zionist Jesuit at that... who knows?
as things will continue to change as prophecy becomes 'Full'
only when the blood shed by the Saints & elect is enough will the End-Time 70th week begin to play out....& the 'beast' to be revealed

Originally posted by St Udio
First Beast=this will be an 'empire' built on a cult of Personality, a singular individual

2nd Beast=the False Prophet, (the Pope is the Vicar, The Maitreya is the bringer of the word ~which might equate to Prophet~
there are several religions in the world which have a 'Prophet'='Servant'
of the GOD as their messenger, so i'd look at one of those powerful religions to be the source of the end-time FalseProphet from the Land,

Thank you for that contribution.
I'm inclined to agree with you on both halves of the above, with only a slight difference in the way I would fit the two halves together.
It seems natural to me to understand the second Beast as that Personality on which the cult of personality is based, with the first Beast as the system built round him. Was not Hitler the "prophet" of his own cult of the "Volk"?

How would a "prophet" figure from one of the major religions become such a dominating person? Well, my speculation in other threads has been that the great catastrophe in ch6 precedes the final version of the Beast, and that the Beast actually rises to power on the strength of being able to lead the world out of that crisis. In those circumstances, it could be easier to see how the political and religious roles might become combined, whether by a religious leader taking charge or by a political leader being treated in religious terms. It would be a "this man has saved the world!" situation.

reply to post by DISRAELI


indeed the NAZI & Hitler may be the forerunner of the end-time scenario.

i would keep in mind the contribution post 'pthena' which brings up the brick & mortar Temple instigated by the Christian Zionist 'beast'

both the forecast '7 year Treaty' & the physical (3rd) Temple
just might be the elements that spark your 'global catastrophe' which ushers in the AC & the Prophet cohort to global dominion & control for about 3 1/2 years ... until the 10 kings unite to completely burn down/utterly destroy, the Empire/City of the 2 Beasts (AC & false prophet)

[edit on 24-8-2010 by St Udio]

reply to post by St Udio

Your scenario looks like a very plausible way of implementing my scenario.
My mind is certainly open to that possibility.

Thank you Funkydung for the vid ...It would be hard to imagine that what is shown in the vid's is not part of prophecy being fulfilled .I am not sure about what I was told about the rapture in a dispensationalist view are correct ,but I also don't think it necessary for salvation . Just seeing Him would evoke a rapturous feeling .

Thank you Disraeli for your post.S&F ...Keep up the good work,it is much appreciated .

Thank you pthena for joining into the discussion . You definitely make me think and reconsider my position on many things Christian. peace to all ..

reply to post by DISRAELI

I wasn't in a position to talk about the plans of Christian Zionism in the OP because I know almost nothing about the movement apart from occasional allusions on this site. You know from the end of the OP that I see no necessity to expect a new physical temple.

Neither do I see the necessity for a stone temple to be completed. It is, in fact the attempt which subverts the church,(a portion, at least). I will quote a paragraph from a book I highly recommend.

By assessing the Jewish state's entitlement to territory in the light of the Old Testament promises God made to Abraham, Christian Zionists are aiding and abetting the activities of a highly motivated minority of right-wing and religious Jews in both Israel and America who oppose the establishing of a Palestinian state and so all peace plans. In this way and via American ballot box Christian Zionists are pouring more fuel on the flames of the dispute that lies at the heart of the Muslim world's sense of grievance against the West, and at the heart too, most would say, of the West's current struggle against Islamic fundamentalism.

None of the issue's fiendish complexity, none of its tragic and growing intractability, interests Christian Zionists. Millions of devout American Christians will never retreat from their unconditional support for the greatest of all possible Israels because they believe it is God's will. A poll conducted by Pew Forum of Religion and Public Life in July 2006 found that 42 per cent of all Americans believe 'Israel was given to the Jewish people by God' and 35 per cent believe that Israel is 'part of the fulfillment of biblical prophecy about the Second Coming of Jesus. In 2006 a Zogby International poll tightened up the question of Israel's biblical claim to the land and found that 31 per cent of Americans either 'strongly believe' or 'believe' that Israel must have all the promised land, including Jerusalem, in order to facilitate the Second Coming
Victoria Clark, Allies For Armageddon: The Rise of Christian Zionism, pg 5, Yale University Press, copyright 2007

I don't think it is appropriate to link all Jews, whether religious, not religious or otherwise as in some way Zionist. Among the religious and secular Jews are very many who want nothing to do with the current so-called Jewish state of Israel, or its Zionist agenda of eliminating all that is not Jewish from Palestine. From a religious view:

Two thousand years ago, the Jews were sent into exile by God's decree, where they must remain until they are redeemed by God, as He has assured them through the prophets. The idea of a return to the country prematurely, without divine redemption, is wrong. In view of this, the Land of Israel belongs to those who have lived there for hundreds of years: the Palestinians.

The idea of a premature return was first conceived of by the Zionists, who at the beginning were a small Godless group, completely rejected by mainstream Jewry. They forced their plan upon the Jewish world through years of political maneuvering. Their slogan was that the Jewish people would finally stop waiting for divine salvation. "It is now time to take our destiny into our own hands," they said. "We must forget our past; we must leave behind the Divine message and the ancient role of the Jewish people in the world. Israel, the people of the Bible, must be transformed into a secular nation."
. . .
Now we are being given a unique, perhaps last chance to end the Zionist state on our own initiative, because if we do not, God will do it - the same God who sent His people into exile. He wants His people redeemed not by the Zionists but by Him alone, as He has repeatedly announced through the prophets. There is no getting around God's plan. Therefore, let us have the insight to put the solution into action under all circumstances. There is no time to lose!
Neturei Karta has a Solution to the Middle-East Problem

Yet the Christian Zionists have no care about who suffers or who dies as long as all the Palestinians are wiped away. They think the rapture will take them away before TSHTF.

America is not blameless.

reply to post by pthena

Thank you for making that contribution and putting the work in.
Does Victoria Clark quote any figures for the proportion of American Christians who believe a stone Temple ought to be built? Because of course this is a much narrower issue than the question of whether a Zionist state should exist in that land- it would be perfectly possible for someone to believe the latter without extending it to the former, so I was wondering what the figures were. Not living among American Christians, I've got no personal experience to enlighten me.

Please forgive if I am incorrect, but aren't the Elect of God those who were chosen before the Foundation of the Earth? If this is so, wouldn't God's true nation of Isreal be those who were scattered among the Nations from the 12 Tribes to the four corners of the Earth? If the Third Temple can be viewed as both Real and Symbolic, might not the true nation of Isreal be symbolic as well, in a geographic sense?

Originally posted by deadred
but aren't the Elect of God those who were chosen before the Foundation of the Earth?
If this is so, wouldn't God's true nation of Isreal be those who were scattered among the Nations from the 12 Tribes to the four corners of the Earth?
If the Third Temple can be viewed as both Real and Symbolic, might not the true nation of Isreal be symbolic as well, in a geographic sense?

Thank you for that contribution.
I've deliberately broken it up, so that I can see the line of argument more easily.

My first reaction is that the second sentence doesn't necessarily follow from the first. Given that the Elect are chosen in advance, why assume that they must be chosen from the "scattered" Israelites? (If that's what you mean)

Having said that, I then agree with your third sentence anyway. Because that's how the Church has traditionally regarded itself, I think; as the true "Israel of God" having taken over the role from the Jews.
In fact it's been a long-standing tradition to take OT "God will save Israel from their enemies" statements and reinterpret them as "God will save the Church from Satan" statements.
So, yes, I think the church does, traditionally, regard the true nation of Israel as symbolic. Perhaps that line of thought is sometimes getting forgotten.