69% of America: Rescind Bush tax cuts on rich

Originally posted by links234
I don't understand this belief that poor people don't pay taxes, as if that amount deducted from their paycheck doesn't count for anything.

'A poor man never gave me a job!' Well, have you been paying attention the last few weeks? Rich people aren't giving you a job either. This is happening right now:

Profits are up.
Productivity is up.
Joblessness is up.

This is all corporatist, capitalist greed!

Step 1: Fire Bob.
Step 2: Threaten Joe with firing, Joe works harder.
Step 3: Profit.

Optional step 4, go on TV and explain you had to fire Bob because liberals are going to tax you more and that keeps you from rehiring Bob...irregardless of your profit margin.

Im not sure where you got this but profits arent up. Productivity isnt up. Nor is the amount of employed, but rather unemployment is still up. Do you realize that the so called rich pay the majority of the taxes now? Something rediculous like at least 50% of the income comes from the so called rich? How bout, instead of raising the taxes we instead look at cutting spending first? Wouldnt that make sense?

If you were on a budget would you spend outside of that budget and then expect your boss to raise your pay so you can cover that money?

To be honest, I think the tax cuts should stay for now and we should cut the hell outa spending. Then....cut taxes even more FOR EVERYBODY. Not just the rich, not just the poor but FOR EVERYBODY. Everybody should be entitled, in my opinion, to keep what they want out of what they earn.

If you make more than $250k/year I want to ask you something and I want you answer me honestly.

Do you realize you make up only 2% of the total population of the nation?

It's true, 98% of the population (that's more than 300,000,000 men, woman and children) make anywhere between $0 and $249,999. Ninety-eight percent! If you make that minimum $250k you're still making five times more than the national average for an individual.

It never ceases to amaze me how someone so obscenely wealthy can not fathom making anything less when nearly everyone else does it every single day. Yet there are still people in that 98% that defend the other 2% tooth and nail...

So you are saying everybody should make the same amount of money as each other? So how bout we flip the tables a bit? Instead of just taxing the rich 30 some odd percent, why dont we tax everybody the same amount? Let everybody feel what its like to open up that paycheck and see that the government took out .33 on every dollar that you earned cause they want to give it to somebody else for some other thing. It isnt always that they give it to the poor mind you, they also have their self named library's to build, pig farms to rid of odor, bridges to nowhere to build, etc. Wouldnt cutting spending make a bit more sense and you might even be a little more proud about your government and where it spends YOUR money in the end.

reply to post by marg6043


I had heard that. Pensions, SS, and other assorted programs like that I have no problems with... After all the people getting them, earned them. Other things such as farm subsidies being paid to farmers not to grow stuff are just more than slightly outrageous.

Other things I have some issue with are entitlements such as welfare, foodstamps, etc... that are subject to high levels of fraud and abuse. These are meant to aid people in making their way, not a lifestyle choice.

And of course, there is Washingtons never ending fave game called pork-barrel spending...

Cut down on all of these, and others that I haven't mentioned, and loe, there's money to spend on important things such as infrastructure.

But hey, apparently many think it'll be easier, and more politically feasible to
"soak the rich"...

A flat tax is still a viable solution. This will level the playing field. But get the corrupt hands out of the cookie jar first. the Flat tax has never been used in America. (I am pretty sure) lets give this a try?

reply to post by seagull


there's a little apple juice producer (well it isn't that little) up in central NY..
central NY used to have a ton of apple orchards and well, this factory would buy their apples from the local producers...
then the trade agreements came into play.....the gov't is paying this little factory to import frozen juice concentrate from overseas.....and well, the apple orchards are for the most part left unattended...

I don't think we should have to increase anyone's taxes, I think the american population pays way too much in taxes to begin with..
the problem is how our gov't is using our tax money, and if we give them more, they will only use it to screw things up more, so they will need more! and the circle never ends!

Originally posted by bluestar.ranch
A flat tax is still a viable solution. This will level the playing field. But get the corrupt hands out of the cookie jar first. the Flat tax has never been used in America. (I am pretty sure) lets give this a try?

That would be great if we could get some people in government that are just everyday people. I feel sad that they Tea Party has been swayed because they are going to get swayed into voting for somebody like a Palin or whoever else. Living in Florida, Marco Rubio is the "next big thing" but to me he is just another career politician that knows how to say everything just right enough to get voted in. Ill bet $100 that he flip flops on a major amount of issues by the end of his career as they might be profitable to him. I find it really sad that we the people are getting pushed and pulled into believing in people like this and a major amount of people are going to be let down again. And I can only see two results of this.

1) Revolution. Not just of peoples minds but an actual revolution with a war and all.

or

2) Everybody just sticks their heads in the ground like an ostrich and go back to ignoring what is happening in Washington because they realize they just got duped and feel stupid.

reply to post by dawnstar


Those are valid points...if it's tax money that's being siphoned off into undeserving pockets, by all means find it, and get it back. Do you think I'd have a problem with that? However (and you knew there'd be one, didn't you?), I wasn't actually referring to those folks who are in a very real sense, committing fraud of sorts.

I was referring to, and should have made myself clearer, folks like farmers and, in my area, vintners who do make a good living, yet earn that living through working their collective butts off. ...and oddly enough, are the major employers in many areas.

Though there are farmers who make a killing with subsidies that are paid out to notgrow certain crops. This, too, I consider to be a form of fraud on the American people.

You're right, there are no clear cut, painless answers. But it's becoming more and more clear, to more and more people that further taxes on Americans are not the solution. The solution is less govt spending on things we don't need, and are wasteful.

It'll take diligence and labor, but controlling spending, eliminating fraud and waste are the only answers. Higher taxes on a portion of the population isn't.



[edit on 8/24/2010 by seagull]

reply to post by dizzie56


No bet.

Flat tax is a great idea, and one I'd support. But until such time as term limits are established at state and federal levels it'll remain a pleasant fantasy. There are too many vested interests in Washington DC and in state capitols for this to ever be implemented with any surety of success.

Term limits. Then, and only then, will a flat tax be feasible.

IMHO, of course...

reply to post by seagull


It is sad in the end, that while many of us see "been filthy rich" as unfair the truth is that due to the downgrade of our nations economy and the work force it is those same filthy rich the ones that are paying more into our taxes and all those entitlement programs that pays for those down the ladder that makes no enough or make nothing at all.

But then again what will happen to this nation without the fifthy rich support.

Yes they get to put in their pocket more than any of us will dream to put in ours in lifetime but they also pay as much into taxes and the economy.

Originally posted by seagull
reply to post by dizzie56

 

No bet.

Flat tax is a great idea, and one I'd support. But until such time as term limits are established at state and federal levels it'll remain a pleasant fantasy. There are too many vested interests in Washington DC and in state capitols for this to ever be implemented with any surety of success.

Term limits. Then, and only then, will a flat tax be feasible.

IMHO, of course...

And term limits are a fantasy as well. Id definately support them but to be honest, we are asking the people that we elect to basically put in a law that fires themselves after so many years...not gonna happen. In florida we had something similar happen and it never went thru. Politicians were, actually i should say are, double dipping. That means they get a government job, work the amount of years that they need to work to get a pension, quit for a year, and then go and get another different government job while still collecting the pension. I dont agree with them doing it but I laughed when I heard that the people of this state wanted to put it up for a vote in the state congress. The very same people that they are asking to stop double dipping are the very same people that have the power to make it happen or not. What do you think happened?

As much as I would like to see even a good ole boy from down here that would be like Mr. Smith goes to Washington in a sense, I realize that it wont happen. Power corrupts people to what amount I cant even begin to realize. People change and turn into what we never wanted in the first place. And even if they dont change, our perception of them changes from time to time because we dont agree with every little vote that they make. All of this comes down to the self. The majority of people in the world really do not have their emotions in check and do not use logic to provide the path for the future actions that they take. When everybody can start to use logic and not just fuel from their emotions to do whatever it is they do then the world will be better, and so will our government.

reply to post by seagull


and who are these farmers hiring?? and are they paying these farmers enough to support their employees?? let alone the employees families??

if not, well, the how do you think these employees are supporting their families?? are they bringing their wife and families into the fields to earn their own living, are they taking on another job, or are they visiting the nearest welfare office where they are being handed food stamps, a medicaid card, ect???

that's another part that is out of whack with our economy. the businesses want more money for their goods and services than they are willing to pay their employees to enjoy those goods and services...so at the end of the day, those farm hands go home, and yet, can't afford to buy the produce that they have worked 40 hours to produce!

Now the controversy about Bush tax cut to the poor comes to the propaganda by the democrats that it has cost to the nation about $2.3 trillion.

And that if the Republicans win congress this November they will expand the tax cuts for another 10 years.

The Republicans already are looking into Freezing the $230,000,000 billion in the Obama stimulus package if they take hold of congress again.

www.dailykos.com...:-Economic-and-Fiscal-Policy-After-the-November-Election

But what neither Democrats or Republicans are talking about is that Obama economic stimulus just made a dent on the economic crisis it didn't fix it, extending the tax cuts to the rich will add more deficit to our already mammoth one as money has to come from somewhere, but freezing the Obama economic stimulus will only make things worst and the $2.3 trillion lost on the rich tax cuts will double in no time.

Meanwhile Obama already have a panel to look into raising the SS tax on the rich, yes is a panel already working on this, as Obama said back in 2007 that he will have not problem raising SS on the rich

www.boston.com...

www.huffingtonpost.com...






[edit on 24-8-2010 by marg6043]

reply to post by marg6043

most of the money that went into "fixing" our economy and preventing the crash went straight into the wall street casino...it saved the rich man's arse, and left main street basically out in the cold! why should anyone out on mainstreet who's never been in the wall street casino have to pay for their bailout??
it was the casino players that created the mess, it was those very same players that got the bailouts....it should be them also who ends up paying the tab!

Originally posted by dawnstar
reply to post by seagull

 

and who are these farmers hiring?? and are they paying these farmers enough to support their employees?? let alone the employees families??

Whomever they can is the obvious answer. The answer to your second question is, as you obviously suspect, not as clear cut as we might want. It depends largely upon who it is being hired. Legal vs illegal. Educated vs not. ...and a whole plethora of other factors. My guess is most are being paid a fair wage, at least in the eyes of the employer...and that's going to vary from one to another... Can it support the worker and his/her family? That would depend very greatly upon lifestyle, would it not? At a very basic level my answer would be yes it would. The next question is...does it? No, in many cases, it does not. That, however, is not the fault of the farmer/orchardist, at least for the most part. Some yes...but doesn't the worker bear a large portion of the blame, as well?

if not, well, the how do you think these employees are supporting their families?? are they bringing their wife and families into the fields to earn their own living, are they taking on another job, or are they visiting the nearest welfare office where they are being handed food stamps, a medicaid card, ect???

Many families do go to the fields, it's multi-generational in many cases. I don't know many who have second jobs. ...and yes, many do utilize various aids available at the local welfare offices.

You seem to be operating under the assumption that I don't approve of these help programs? When in fact I do. I just happen to have issues with people who treat these programs as a lifestyle. I have no issue with a worker who needs a little help around the edges when times are tough. That is what those programs are for. However, those same people had better not be driving around in brand new Suburbans or things of that nature... That's the nature of the issues I have with these programs, they are much too easily subjected to fraudulent users. The farmers should pay a decent wage, so that these programs wouldn't have to be used by a gainfully employed person... But that farmer has his/her own issues that may prevent that...bills, taxes, and other expenses.

that's another part that is out of whack with our economy. the businesses want more money for their goods and services than they are willing to pay their employees to enjoy those goods and services...so at the end of the day, those farm hands go home, and yet, can't afford to buy the produce that they have worked 40 hours to produce!

The costs of goods and services are directly effected by their expenses, just as much as by their desire for a profit... So the workers can't afford certain things? Welcome to the real world...it's that way for all of us who aren't Bill Gates...you have to make choices. I can't afford that 50" plasma TV? Then I'm just going to have to make do with my ordinary 21" TV, and sit a little closer to it... Hamburger instead of steak. Pork or chicken instead of beef. Life isn't fair. For the most part I'm sympathetic, I really am. Yet I'm one of those folks, too. I don't work in the fields, but I have. I've worked in the fishing grounds in Alaska, and on the North Slope (not for long, that job was horrible)...I am, what is euphemistically called the "working poor". These are the choices I've made all my adult life, and the ones I watched my parents make when I was a child.

What it comes down to is this. We have to make our own way, govt. can't, and shouldn't, have much of a roll in this. For it to be otherwise is to abrogate our freedom as individuals. I may be in the minority here, but I'll do without long before I'll live at the whim/say so of some govt. flunky. That's my choice. You all are, of course, free to choose otherwise.

I want my taxes cut. Who doesn't? But I'm not a big proponent of having my boss pay my freight either.

Sorry. I tend to get a little carried away when that soapbox beckons.

I've worked for the company I am working for now for over five years....
I've sat down with pen and paper and did the calculations as to how far that paycheck would take me if I had to depend on it solely (what can I say, my husband sounds like he would rather just take care of himself and to heck with the rest of us.) my kids are grown, so well, I wouldn't have to worry about them....
tell ya something, I've started with the top priority...rent..
then well, the next, the untilities for that apartment...
then the next, a car, gas, insurance....I and over 50 years old and I have trouble with my feed, ain't gonna make it far if I have to walk everywhere I go....especially grocery shopping....
and that is as far as I can get before running a deficit!
and well, those groceries I would need is dependant on the car I would need to get them home!

so, no, it's not about lifestyles....it's about life!!

we often place the pricetag on the stuff we print, so I know how much they are selling for....someone, on down the line is making a nice profit off of this stuff...doubt if it's my boss though, just like I doubt if it's the farmer...
but still...someone down the line is making a killing!

pick any line you want, and you will find someone somewhere down the line...coming out quite nicely!

that is what I mean by the system is too wacked out, and there isn't any easy answers...
the easiest way (although painful for all of us) would be just drop the credit cards, the welfare checks, food stamps, ect....and let the system adapt to the idea that it has to run on what people earn....
you would find the lower wage earners eventually earning higher wages, and some of those who have been making out so nicely currently, having to settle for less...

but, well, don't expect those lower wage earners to settle for less....because, well, I work with alot of people who can't incorporate something as basic as a phone into their budget! and well, this causes a problem at work, since many of them don't call in, they just leave us wondering what is going on with them!

reply to post by seagull


There is a system in place for everyone to diminish their tax burden.

All rich people know this and take full advantage of it. I'm far from being wealthy but I have enough intelligence and initiative to take advantage of it also.

For those that feel they are being overtaxed; do a little research, actually use a little follow thru, fill out the forms and stay abreast of current market trends and make your money work for you.

One years $$$ worth of beer, smokes, eating out, and other frivolous expenditures can be enough capital to make your life a WHOLE LOT more comfortable.

I worked my ass off for the man too as a youth, but it's not necessary if you are willing to make a sacrifice for a short time.

Leona Helmsley said it years ago and it is still true today.

"We don't pay taxes, only the little people pay taxes"

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by links234
If you make more than $250k/year I want to ask you something and I want you answer me honestly.

Do you realize you make up only 2% of the total population of the nation?

Yes you are right, but is that a sin? and more importantly does that mean I should pay more in taxes than you? So I make 50k with a family for four and so I basically pay 0 federal taxes but then if I make 250k with a family of four I will pay about 80k in taxes. No issues with that I take it.

It never ceases to amaze me how someone so obscenely wealthy can not fathom making anything less when nearly everyone else does it every single day. Yet there are still people in that 98% that defend the other 2% tooth and nail...

Defend the fact that the Government wants to pay for all their mistakes by taxing the top 2% more and more. Please tell me how much should it cost to be an American? It seems 50% of America get that right for free.

Also that top 2% will be the top 5% and then the top 20%....they get you to hate the rich then they will suggest the top 20% are also rich and need more taxing.

Originally posted by dawnstar
I've worked for the company I am working for now for over five years....
I've sat down with pen and paper and did the calculations as to how far that paycheck would take me if I had to depend on it solely (what can I say, my husband sounds like he would rather just take care of himself and to heck with the rest of us.) my kids are grown, so well, I wouldn't have to worry about them....
tell ya something, I've started with the top priority...rent..
then well, the next, the untilities for that apartment...
then the next, a car, gas, insurance....I and over 50 years old and I have trouble with my feed, ain't gonna make it far if I have to walk everywhere I go....especially grocery shopping....
and that is as far as I can get before running a deficit!
and well, those groceries I would need is dependant on the car I would need to get them home!

so, no, it's not about lifestyles....it's about life!!

So we need to take those who happen to make enough to pull themselves out of this situation by taxing them more and more so they canfall back in the pit that many live in.

I'm not talking about people who make well over 500k per year, but 200k or 250k is not as much as people may think. It is about enough to pull you out of the pit. So if I get taxed 40% at 200k that puts me to 120k and if I was taxed at 28% at 100k that lowers me to 78k and the 50k doesn't pay anything so he is at 50k the so called rich get closer and closer to the so called poor...isn't it nice how we can all be equal one day with the right amount of taxes? hehe geez



[edit on 24-8-2010 by Xtrozero]

Originally posted by whatukno
What would be interesting is if they let these tax cuts expire, however, gave tax incentives to businesses that hired people.

Say make it cumulative, that way if a business hires a lot of people they save a lot on taxes.

Wouldn't that help unemployment more than trusting already greedy people taking advantage of the tax code to somehow magically become less greedy?

What is to stop the cut of wages to hire more employees? What about part time workers? If yes, then why would I hire one full timer at 15 dollars an hour when I can hire two part timers at minimum wage and get more in tax rebates?


I think we can all agree our system of taxation is not very good. We do need to find a new system of taxation.

reply to post by grimreaper797


Let's see, what could we do to encourage businesses to hire more people, and at the same time give them a break on their taxes so that hiring people is a good idea?

Because obviously Bush's tax cuts haven't done it.

Because the only thing that is going to get this economy moving again is people getting back to work, the only thing that will make consumer confidence increase is if those consumers have money to spend.

Government cannot get this economy going by itself, and those tax cuts aren't doing it, and obviously we cannot afford them anyway with this outrageous deficit we are running.

So how do we fix it?

reply to post by marg6043

Meanwhile Obama already have a panel to look into raising the SS tax on the rich, yes is a panel already working on this, as Obama said back in 2007 that he will have not problem raising SS on the rich

Something has to happen Marge. The top .1 percent...which is the extremely wealthy...have to start paying at least what they payed under Clinton and IMO close to what it was before Reagan slashed it.

We also HAVE to raise tariffs. No tax plan is going to stop what is happening unless we do it.

It's at the point where ideologies simply no longer matter. If we want to save the wealth and power that this country once had...and is no losing...we have to go back to policies that were working before the last 30 years of disasterous free tree policies and complete lack of anti-trust law enforcement.

I simply so no other way to fix this. Would this solve all of our problems? No way...but we have to start somewhere.

Democrats haven't done anything...and Republicans won't do jack either. They continue to push for more corporate tax cuts which is complete insanity. They push for the estate tax to continue to be gone...they push for more tax cuts for the extremely wealthy...but yet go on talking about cutting social security or raising the age...privatizing it.

They have been blocking unemployment benefits. Damnit they have damn near tried to block anything that might help American families...but they'll back a tax cut...but corps have to get some of that action.

Why aren't small businesses distancing themselves from the completely insane alliance they are taking with INTERNATIONAL CORPORATIONS??

This needs to end.