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TO all members of the Anti-US crowd

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posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 03:51 PM
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reply to post by Torgo
 


So because one is born into the spoils of western society, they have no right to point out the wrongs?

If no one points out the wrongs, things are only going to get worse.




posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 04:47 PM
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Let's clear up some misconceptions on who started certain things.
Vietnam. This was not our war. France was given Vietnam after WWII to look after and the peoples of Vietnam did not take kindly to said occupiers leading to the indo-china war... ever heard of it? I'm guessing many of you did not. We took over when France had enough.indochina war
As far as Afghanistan, I'm guessing that many of you also do not remember Russia's brutal occupation of Afghanistan. While the justification for our occupation remains cloudy, theirs was downright shady.afghan war

Nukes on 2 cities. Hmmmm The biggest war in a century against a enemy who would not quit, who commited heinous acts against it's neighbors... vivesections on Pow's (unit 731) So let's put you in the hot seat, what would YOU have done? Unit731
As they say hind sight is 20/20, but given the intel they had at that time, I guarantee you would have done the same thing. And in actuality, we saved ourselves from getting nuked as they were also working on the same weaponry, it was a race to the finish... we won.Japan nuke program
So we can throw insults around all we want, I hate all of the world... I see a global disaster and I see my fellow countrymen dip into their pockets and give and give and we get spit and piss in return. When we suffer from a disaster you know what we receive? "Hahahah, you reap what you sow" And it's BS. So the haters can hate, I hope you live long and happy lives and your children are safe and grow up big and strong... eventually my kids are going to get tired of ya'lls crap and I hope you live long enough to see it.



posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by Silver Shadow
Yup.

What Americans call defending freedom and democracy always involves either a bombing raid, unprovoked surgical strike, or some sort of military invasion of another country.

When was the last time America sent UNARMED ships and transport aircraft filled with food, tents, and blankets, to assist another country with humanitarian aid in a disaster ?


Last week when tonnes of supplies were air-dropped into Pakistan that had suffered torrential flooding disasters


The USA provided the majority of it


So you're a blustering idiot for thinking otherwise.

Sorry dude but you asked for that one.


[edit on 23-8-2010 by WatchRider]



posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 04:52 PM
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Obviously he thinks the US has fleets of large transport aircraft unaffiliated with our military just sitting around on standby waiting for a natural disaster to happen to another country.



posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 07:14 PM
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reply to post by 8fl0z
 


No, but if he wants to focus his blame on anyone he should start with his own country, or his mother's, both of which are far from innocent when it comes to crimes against humanity. It makes him look like a hypocritical self-righteous d-bag to paint the US as the sole bad guy in today's world.

[edit on 23-8-2010 by Torgo]



posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 09:13 PM
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What are borders but lines in the sand before the wind blows?

What countries borders were not carved by the edge of a sword?
What history is not written in blood?
If they deny this than they are ignorant.
If we are to call them men than they must be slaves; educate them.

Who dares to feign innocence when compelled to war?
If they are without Will than there is nothing to direct Consciousness.
If we are to call them men than they must be slaves; lead them.

What armies march at the command of a foreign ruler?
If they exist with fear in their hearts than they are cowards.
If we are to call them men than they must be slaves; guard them.

Who suffers and casts blame? Who destroys and cries for salvation?
If they cannot take command of their own fate than they are lost.
If we are to call them men than they must be slaves; rule them.

Who dares to betray truth when their own sins are lay before them?
If they cannot face their own image than they are false.
If we are to call them men than they must be slaves; destroy them.

...

There seems to be a fair amount of hypocrisy on this site. It seems that America has become Kevin Bacon. Mexican drug war...American's buy drugs, it's not the cartels fault for killing people and slinging poison world wide. Nobody else in the entire world buys or sells drugs so Mexican cartels must be American slaves since we are responsible for their actions.

Japan was bombed twice with an abomination against nature. Many people died. Many people also died in a war that they started. But wait...Japan was manipulated to war by American politicians. Since they were manipulated into murdering their own brothers and sisters and accept no responsibility as to the final outcome than they are slaves to America.

They bombed the WTC. Some said America deserved it and that is what they get for trying to police the world. They did it because we had soldiers in Saudi Arabia and it defiled their holy land. Their is always an excuse. They cannot admit to the hate in their own hearts and murdered their brothers and sisters out of fear and self deluding hatred. They had no choice because they are slaves to America

I have lived in America for most of my life. Most everyone I know are hard working, care for their family, do what they can afford for their community and still keep some small piece of this life for themselves. The world portrays Americans as fat, loud, image conscious, fickle and without substance. They call us war mongers, devils, and from what I have read on this site...much, much worse. How does my day to day life seem to differ so much from the "educated" observations of foreign brothers and sisters? It's because that is how America is betrayed...sorry, I meant portrayed in the media. So you all must watch too much television. It's really bad for you.

I read a post on here about Canadian's being overly sensitive about being called American, or how the white people in Canada would easily blend into American society and wage a terror war because they couldn't be easily spotted resembling the population as they do...because the reverse of that theory would never work. I mean, could you imagine pretending to be Canadian just to blow up..um...there is actually stuff in Canada right?

To everyone else. Your governments were not complacent in the destruction of your pathetic little lives. You are ruled because you are weak. Your TPTB rule because they have stuck to a plan for 10,000 years. Most of you can't count that high. Survival of the fittest is a law that transcends time and space.

As with all slaves you complain incessantly; and really, who better to complain about than the biggest dog on the block?

Don't be slaves. Free yourself of your self deluding hatred. Take account of your own words and actions or be silent and be gone.



[edit on 23-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]



posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 11:02 PM
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Well I would like to put it to you that America is far far from being the land of the free. America has been at a permanent state of war for the past 60 odd years, its hardwired into the DNA of your Corporate Fascist State. The saddest aspect of it, is the people of America who for the most part are decent people have been totally fooled into worshiping War, preaching isolationism and thinking there are some beacon for freedom and democracy.

Truth is America's sons and daughters fight for Corporate interests, these same people your cherished men and women in Uniform make up the largest proposition of homeless people in America, classy. America as a westernized country falls extremely short on the basics, such healthcare, education, law and order, basic infrastructure, financial stability of its citizens, why because corporations run your country .. they keep you brain dead with # TV, # food and brainwashed you into thinking killing people on Mass is some to people proud off?

Compare America to most European Countries and it falls extremely short, compare America today to the education systems of India and China and its not even in the same lg ... I have nothing against America, I consider myself and Human #ing being first and foremost, I beileive Nationalism is idiot juice for the little people and the people in power really could not give two flying monkeys about America this Europe that, Christian this Muslim that, its classic Divide and Conquer stuff .. I long for the day when the people of this world wake up and take a long hard look at the real culprits .. the top 5% who have been playing us all like fiddles since the dawn of interest rates



posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 11:18 PM
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Originally posted by Nicey
Truth is America's sons and daughters fight for Corporate interests, these same people your cherished men and women in Uniform make up the largest proposition of homeless people in America, classy. America as a westernized country falls extremely short on the basics, such healthcare, education, law and order, basic infrastructure, financial stability of its citizens, why because corporations run your country .. they keep you brain dead with # TV, # food and brainwashed you into thinking killing people on Mass is some to people proud off?

Well, it's estimated that 23% of homeless in America are vets. I'm interested in the validity of that claim, whether documentation was provided or it went by 'word of mouth'.
Healthcare? Cannot be compared since we used to choose a private system.
Education? I'll certainly not defend our basic K-12 school system. However, to deny that US universities are not among the best in the world is ridiculous.
Law and Order? Absolutely irrelevant considering population, ethnic diversity, income, and laws differing between nations.
Financial stability? Hmm, where are you going with this? The US still maintains the largest GDP, and our median household income is still amongst the best in the world.



posted on Aug, 23 2010 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by Nicey
 


"Well I would like to put it to you that America is far far from being the land of the free." I do what I want, when I want, all day, every day. Please elaborate.

"America has been at a permanent state of war for the past 60 odd years, its hardwired into the DNA of your Corporate Fascist State." I actually served during what must have been a loll in the blood lust of the Roman Mob...I mean American people when the only thing we did was make fun of the British.

"Truth is America's sons and daughters fight for Corporate interests, these same people your cherished men and women in Uniform make up the largest proposition of homeless people in America, classy."

en.wikipedia.org...

and just for fun

en.wikipedia.org...

I got bored and fell asleep reading the rest.


[edit on 23-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]

[edit on 23-8-2010 by TheWrongStuff]



posted on Aug, 24 2010 @ 01:05 PM
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I got to say- I love all this Amerika bashing. Just makes me all gooey inside.

It would seem there are several themes going on within the discussion.

YES / NO Amerika has the responsibility to police the world.

YES / NO Amerika has its problems, but isn't awful like the Nazis / Bolsheviks.

YES / NO Amerika is the same as the Constitutional Republic created by the Founding Fathers.

YES / NO Opponents of Amerika are towel head terrorists, libtards, or ron paulians.


All of this is great evidence of massive polarization. The crash of very different world views coming together in conflict.

I doubt there's much chance that any one will have their views changed dramatically in this discussion- at least not the passionate participants. Perhaps the lurking reader could glean something, and as such I will offer my 2 cents again.

AMERIKAN GLOBAL POLICE: Personally, I say no way jose to this. Primarily because it costs the lives and resources, both of which are taken by armed force for the purpose or benefit of someone else (no, I'm no fan of collectivism). Further, the only legitimate way to begin offensive operations is through a Congressional Declaration of War (2/3rds majority). Absent that, Amerika's global policing is really an extra-Constitutional endeavor of the Executive Branch.

AMERIKA HAS ITS PROBLEMS BUT ISN'T TYRANNICAL: Much could be said of this point. True, people live their daily lives listening to Glenn Beck, buying groceries in the store, and playing XBox- freedom! no? Alternatively, Amerika incarcerates more people per capita than any other nation. Prisoners are forces into labor (labor camps). Most criminals haven't even a victim other than the state. Militarized police, population surveillance, highwaymen preying upon innocent travelers extorting money, are all indications of a Police State.

AMERIKA IS A CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC: Obviously to anyone who has ever read the US Constitution, this political body, "Amerika" is a foreign element. Senate Report 93-549 of 1973 (www.barefootsworld.net...) even indicates the suspension of the Constitution. Without Constitutional powers or restraints, Amerika has a body of law (if any) unknown to the Founding Fathers. The Bill of Rights 1-10 are totally absent from life in Amerika. Free-speech zones, Class 3 licenses, stolen money for DoD salaries, warrantless searches, lawless due process, the suspension of the writ of habeus corpus, the total elimination of common law, forced labor cruelties, reduction of citizen to resident to consumer, denial of state suffrage within the Senate. The BoR are GONE.

OPPONENTS OF AMERIKA ARE TERRORISTS, LIBERALS, CONSTITUTIONALISTS: Most likely true. In the arena of individual rights, "civil rights" and foreign compulsory law, most rising to challenge Amerika are the above mentioned undesirables. Moreover, proponents of Amerika like to employ Delphi, contrived left/right distractions, and vilification of fathers protecting their daughters from Britney Spear's influence, due largely to a total lack of credible foundation for these extra-Constitutional foreign and domestic policies (some say Anti-Constitutional... lets wait to hear what the Grand Juries say sometime in the future ;-).

As evidenced by this tread, the growing polarization of these world views is likely to grow... unfortunately history has taught us how such disparities end: death and war. This is something to keep in mind for all of us. If we are going to use force to compel each other to perform, contribute, or sacrifice, then the outcome is already spoken of in the stories of Spartacus.

A weighty realization for newly awakened.



posted on Aug, 24 2010 @ 02:42 PM
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reply to post by sakokrap
 


Except that your argument, while poorly thought out, also deals with facts in a light that you believe reflects well but in reality only spotlights your ignorance.

Spartacus was crucified with all of the men and women that followed him. So, good luck with that.

I believe the OP's original point was that AmeriCa my be flawed, but so is everyone and everything else. There does not exist one single righteous or pious government on this planet. Men have war bread into their blood and they still call it the reptilian brain. Trying to point a finger and make excuses, deny reality, find a scapegoat, deny accountability, refuse to take inventory of ourselves and expect that we are the salvation that we seek. This is the damnation of the blind and the weak. It is how you are corralled and maneuvered. You cannot get over yourself and see past your own inequity so by default, it must be someone else's fault and they had better fix it because you were built for complaining and pointing out flaws, not actually doing something about it.



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 02:10 AM
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reply to post by TheWrongStuff
 


Unfortunately for you and I sir, together we're the wrong sak of krap ;-)

You reply to my post as an argument poorly thought out. Perhaps English is not a native language to you, so please do forgive me by correcting you that my post was an expression of opinion and summation about the context of the discussions here. Further it was adding my opinion therein. Unfortunately you must have missed that.

I truly agree with your assessment of the outcomes of Spartacus. Some men can live in service and peace, some in sewer holes, and some choose rather to die dueling over a simple verbal assault. The outcomes of all of them are the same: worm food. Good luck to us all trying to avoid that!

I think we caught one of the same veins within the thread- Amerika being bad, but not terrible. You're a keen observer to catch that. Good job.

Unfortunately I am unable to follow your thoughts past that point. I believe you're attempting to say that while mankind is "bread" (bred) to make war, why not it be this one (sorry, I couldn't follow). I assume you're speaking in a general 2nd person sense rather than myself specifically (thank you if that's so).

I believe the "moral" of my story / the summation/ the evidence revealed was effectively delivered (forgive me if it went over your head). I was summarizing the polar world views and attempting to imply (imho) what may well become reality in the not-too-distant future.

Which goes back to what you offered- that mankind is "bread" for war.

Diversions into the reasons, at this point in the thread, is likely rehashing the same old thing. Personal responsibility or collective responsibility (for problems or shouldering the "global policing") is essentially the foundational value contest.

Those who are indebted to their neighbors in collective action will not avert and become personally responsible, and those seeing only their own individual responsibility will continue to refuse it to the collective Borg.

An impasse... for now. (which may well ring in your ears with my post to which you've responded)



[edit on 25-8-2010 by sakokrap]



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 03:01 AM
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Okay, NOT an Anti-US part taker. BUT!, The United States of America is a collected government that was established... You can't claim that they are in the right or the wrong because good and evil are a point of view and all behavior has purpose. From what I have seen by our government is the destruction of a collected concious of knowledge and earthly wealth. The dollor is an illusion of ENERGY and POWER, its a failure to choose what was best. The funny thing is that man cannot rule man, if we are equal then we deserve a full and equal right to any knowledge and energy we choose. This universe is a blessing to all of us and if we cannot learn to use it in the right way then it will be abused exactly the way our government abused our world and our rights. The "humanity law" shouldn't be just basic needs of a society it should be all the needs of a single person... A government cannot support this... Only a collected group dedicated to human rights can. I honestly think that our society had two paths in the past... One to make the control in the hands of few or many... Our leaders had a choice to protect us and either way it would've worked for then, but as we know... Men are corrupt and vile so control was their decision. It boils down to the fact that our country was never a country... It's been a corperation feeding us lies to keep the business going. I am not worried though...

I hope there is no government in my future... No illusion of energy and no lies by the men who think they're better. Only people working for people. If you think about it we could make our lives better with a chance to rise and get into the minds of the blinded.



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 03:09 AM
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reply to post by DrJay1975
 


Nice post. Can you please tell us why USA does nothing for Cyprus, which is occupied by a foreign power for 37 years?



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 08:19 AM
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reply to post by sakokrap
 


So its early but I am going to try and make this very clear. Pointing out spelling mistakes does not make you intelligent and does not support your claims. I haven't had my coffee yet but I am pretty sure that you were drunk when you typed your post. I tried several times to relate whatever it was that you said to my post, perhaps I rambled off on a tangent...I do that when Im drinking...but no, you can't just put words together and call it a sentence.

But since we're going that way, America has a C in it not a K. I imagine that you probably put that there as some ironical joke that most people don’t get and that makes you feel clever
Onto my soap box; America isnt bad or good, it is a place. People suck. All of them, everywhere, all the time, especially you. Unless you stop for a moment, get over your own BS, take a full assessment of yourself and what you bring to the table and make an honest attempt to see through their eyes and understand their suffering.

Or we can just call each other names, point out trivial spelling mistakes and bomb the crap out of everything between us and the apocalypse.

I’m not allowed to call you names and make fun of you personally so I will end the post here by saying that to all the American bashers that are from America, while you have the right to complain, if all you do is complain, well that makes you a punk.



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 06:48 PM
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reply to post by TheWrongStuff
 


Let us forfeit ideas of the grandeur of our intelligences, our aptitude at spelling, or the the nature/extent our our levels of hydration- all of which teeter upon off topic.

To the topic then! Dr. Jay used terminology ("America") in his initial thread, and I have yet to see its lawful definition anywhere. I am certain he is not referring to the continent(s), and my choice of spelling this word is quite relevant to the discussion.

I had proposed earlier that your "America" is not the United states of America created from the ratification of the US Constitution. And truly, we both know there is no such thing, so If I choose to spell a fictional dreamlike entity in a creative way, then I imagine this would be one of the things you can look through my eyes and see my suffering.

My choice of the spelling of Amerika is likely to go over youngsters heads. For the readers a little long in the tooth, they'll recall an old television program, Amerika. I do choose to spell it that way, as the way Dr. Jay and yourself are choosing to use it is just as well founded in law as the Tooth-Fairy. (www.youtube.com...). It could be said that the spelling I choose may be more accurate ;-)

Your complaint is well grounded-

all the American bashers that are from America, while you have the right to complain, if all you do is complain, well that makes you a punk.


...but nonetheless is without merit for the topic of this thread. By insinuating that Dr Jay is a punk isn't likely to benefit the discussion much. Further, I would like to defend Dr. Jay. While he and I may disagree about definitions, values and purposes of our neighbors' lives, I believe his initiative and passion to create this thread is doing something more than complaining. He is engaging the public in discourse, and gaining insights to his own opinion as much as the opinions of others.

Hurray for Dr. Jay! (Dr. Jay, he's right you know- all people, you I and Wrong suck: air)

Now Wrong, with your statement that Amerika is just a place- I agree. Unfortunately, countries with the power to wage war often have some law, limit, character or treatise- and Amerika doesn't have one. If it indeed is a place, it really could be just any old place. "Hey, they just put a new field down in Amerika- you want to go play some football?"

If there is an illusion that this Amerika and the United states of America are the same thing... then we're running into problems, and it no longer becomes "just a place" but rather, "a political body with a defined purpose, limit, and law. That would be the US Constitution for the old UsA.

As Dr. Jay originally posted the importance of dispatching armed men for global police duties... well, there is no function for such within the US Constitution. Accordingly, standing armies can only be raised for 2 year funding, and only in times of war. Obviously, those now dispatched to Iraq (I myself was among them once) have neither a Declaration of War, nor do their enlistments stop at 2 years.

So evidenced, I agree with you that Amerika is just a place. A fictional place of double-think, illusion of credibility, and yet amazingly- still garnering the "consent of the governed." A place full of people sucking air.



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 08:08 PM
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reply to post by sakokrap
 


Long, rambling, boring, irrelevant and extremely pretentious. I can't emphasize this enough. If you live in this country and honestly feel the way you do there is no place for you here and you should be gone. People die every day just trying to get here with nothing more than a prayer and a dream. They slave to the bone for just the chance to make something of their life. American's have it all readily available at their fingertips and yet can't seem to get up off their butt's and do anything more significant with their life. It is typical behavior observed in spoiled and sheltered children. I can already hear you agreeing with me while at the same time deflecting the remark to mean some other American's. Certainly not you, you're special.

But I truly enjoy conflict so lets continue.

Your words are trivial and meaningless. Born of a soft life spent in criticism of all things around you. You can tell by the practiced hand and the over use of the thesaurus.

Where on this planet is your utopian society?

I suggest that it is nowhere physical. You can wax boring about how this country is a sham, the government, the media; whatever happened to personal accountability?

That seems to be the stance of most of the lazy entitled members of this board. You seem to think that these things you believe are your birth right should fall out of the sky and into your lap. Without sacrifice there is no reward. Without a great sacrifice by many many people this country, nor any other country on this planet, will ever achieve its true potential. But "people" like you, those I like to call the other America, fancy they are owed something. That usually turns out pretty well in my experience.

Be the change that you wish to see. Others will decide what they will when the time comes. You cannot force it and to do otherwise would be an atrocity and extremely hypocritical considering your lofty stance. Stop complaining so much. Stop looking for fault in everything. But you wont, you will fail hope just as surely as the government you hate and the country that you don't believe in.

But it truly sounds like there is nothing here for you. France has pretty loose immigration laws...so bye.



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 08:17 PM
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Star and flag OP

As I posted before, I didn't see much money flowing into Haiti, except from the us of a, or how about Pakistan, our military flying in and offering aid. Or what about Indonesia, the tsunami that rolled in, who was there. The us of a? Yes. And in all of this.... China was no where to be seen... So as nations lament and weaklings within the us of a complain about those majestic country.. Remember. China won't be there, the russian star won't be there. It'll be the us of a. Until we are bankrupt.



posted on Aug, 25 2010 @ 08:53 PM
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Originally posted by brutalsun
Let's clear up some misconceptions on who started certain things...

[snip]

...I hope you live long and happy lives and your children are safe and grow up big and strong... eventually my kids are going to get tired of ya'lls crap and I hope you live long enough to see it.


That's one heck of a post right there, thanks.



posted on Aug, 26 2010 @ 02:03 AM
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reply to post by TheWrongStuff
 


No matter the quality of our credibilities mate. You're Wrong, and I'm Krap. Ego is not the subject matter here- but discussing the thread.


If you live in this country and honestly feel the way you do there is no place for you here and you should be gone


That topic is domestic policing, not necessarily global policing as Dr. Jay originally mentioned (the 1st post). Nonetheless, I have often times seen this line of thinking congruous with external policing. Reminiscent of policies carried out in Cambodia, Sudan, Kosovo, German under the Nazis, it often follows the external pushes.

I have little doubt that those willing to dispatch me abroad, after plundering the resources from many families to train and equip me, will have much problem dispatching me through the neighborhood for those who are not completely harmonious with popular politics, race, or religion.

Your suggestion has been offered throughout history, and usually ends up being recalled as a terrible instance in human character. I hope you are the exception.


People die every day just trying to get here with nothing more than a prayer and a dream. They slave to the bone for just the chance to make something of their life.


Same could be said for casinos, prostitutes, heroine and meth. Just because the herd of lemmings is headed towards the cliff doesn't necessarily make it an important value to join them ;-)

[qutoe]American's have it all readily available at their fingertips and yet can't seem to get up off their butt's and do anything more significant with their life. It is typical behavior observed in spoiled and sheltered children. I can already hear you agreeing with me while at the same time deflecting the remark to mean some other American's. Certainly not you, you're special.

Sir, as I've said before- I'm a heaping pile of feces man (is that special?). Your value of significance is something I'm curious about. Forgive my guess, but I'm assuming you mean education, career, salary, family- "success" as often learned in public skewl. Such a person generates taxes, continues to fund the military/medical industrial complex, celebrates the old order/ cultural dominance, and is generally productive.

This "productive" quality (imho) has reduced a citizen to a resident, and a resident to a consumer. So, it could be said that it is very undesirable to get up and "make something of yourself" when Dr Jay's Global Police Force will be plundering your toil. As often learned within the USSR, one needn't work hard to feed from the trough- just enough.

Trust me, my words are as meaningless as I am. I do find it odd that you would be interested in my off topic opinions, or how it is I may arrive at the thoughts or expression. Further, I hope you do realize that neither you nor I are the topic of this thread. Join me in keeping on task?


You seem to think that these things you believe are your birth right


lol! I'm sorry, I can't follow your reasoning. The things I believe are my birthright are what my father's sacrificed for. Generally, I lay claim to rights recognized within the Declaration of Independence. More than that is just fluff imho.

But again, I don't see how that has to do with this thread.


But "people" like you...fancy they are owed something. That usually turns out pretty well in my experience.


I figure I am owed freedom to rescind my consent from Dr. Jay's global police force. I figure that I owe to others a jury trial when tried for Treason against the US Constitution.

Again... I don't know how these deviations from topic are valuable to the discussion. My person, or your person are irrelevant and kinds wrong/krappy ;-)

I think the primary question is- WHERE IS THE LEGITIMACY OF AMERIKA?




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