ADHD doesnt exist

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by hotbakedtater

It is a neurological disorder, and more a disease/disorder of the mind.

Most girls who have it present with vastly different symptoms than little boys, including daydreaming, scatterbrainedness, messy rooms, disorganization.

Messy rooms and daydreaming are no indicators of mental illness.


++considering adhd is not a mental illness I agree, per adhd, but messy rooms can certainly be indicators of mental illness such as depression.++

There is plenty of evidence stating this disease/disorder is real.

There is evidence that something else is going on in the brains and chemistry of these kids, not that they are "ill".

++I agree, they are not mentally ill, nor are they "ill" at all++

I do not understand how this thread is able to stand with no evidence

Would you too like it removed?

Heavens no, I am all about freedom of speech, and where did I remotely suggest removal? Would you like it removed?

This thread has been wonderfully informational.

Originally posted by rrobbins
reply to post by Skyfloating

 

As a practicing Therapist for 15 years, specializing in working with adolescent clients, I am shocked that this type of thread is still debated. Similar debates took place over depression, in the past, with many not understanding the actual neuro physiology involved in the disorder. Unfortunately, ADHD is real, albeit, overdiagnosed. In the past, there have been many disorders and conditions that were regarded as not legitimate, such as depression, fibromyalgia, MS, and others, until medical technology advanced to a point where we could actually see the physical evidence to support the diagnosis.

This thread is actually quite irresponsible. To question overdiagnosis is great. But to state something is not real, when a simple google search will reveal the overwhelming clinical data that shows it is real, is not helpful.
For more information, look up the work of Dr. Amen if you would like to learn more. He is one of the top experts on the subject.

I do like the artificial sweetener and preservative hypothesis as an explanation of many cases of "ADHD" however, and believe it needs much more study.

Remember, an opinion that is not based on empiracle evidence when discussing psychogology or physiology, is simply an opinion with little merit. In the middle ages, medical opinion believed that bloodletting and trephoning were effective treatments.

Respectfully submitted,

Rod in Oregon

Of course. As a "Therapist," your livelihood is DEPENDENT upon the supposed "existence" of this ridiculously diagnosed illness.

The more kids that come in with it, the busier you are.

But...AS A THERAPIST, you would expect that stronger parameters would be made for the diagnosis of this "ILLNESS."

Until there are ways of determining this in a "Laboratory Environment," I think we should be leaving out the prescriptions of drugs that have worse side-effects than crack coc aine. In fact, with the amount of drugs being prescribed for this "disease," they might just as well be giving the kids heroin, because some of the side-effects are very similar.

1. Subjects are doped up and slowed down.
2. Subjects report feeling either too tired, or too jacked-up.
3. Subjects experience severe withdrawal when coming off of these seratonin replacement drugs.
4. Subjects CANNOT focus AT ALL without said drugs. (getting the next fix)
5. Subjects often report suicidal thoughts, on said drugs.

I'm sorry "Therapist." But, without further research and more defined parameters regarding this "illness" that are testable in a laboratory environment, we shouldn't be putting our children on ANYTHING AT ALL.

Would you feel good prescribing children heroin if the drug itself proved to be effective in reducing what you perceived as ADHD? No? Well then why are we putting them on Ritalin or Adderol? Do you know that there is an entire fringe element of people who use this garbage to get high the same way that they would with coc aine?

And let me tell you something, if there was ANYTHING that would calm down ADHD, it WOULD be heroin. Subjects would be docile, quiet, loving, and patient. Does that mean that we should put them on such a drug just because it would be effective in getting the results that WE WANT, and not our CHILDREN? Its their bodies...NOT YOURS. And, guess what...all of the withdrawal symptoms and side-effects of heroin are quite similar to that of Adderol. Why are they so similar? Because they both effect the same seratonin receptors that get altered when these drugs are put to use.

Here's a list of the side-effects and withdrawal symptoms of Adderol:

Dextroamphetamine and amphetamine may cause side effects. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away:
nervousness
restlessness
difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep
uncontrollable shaking of a part of the body
headache
changes in sex drive or ability
dry mouth
stomach pain
nausea
vomiting
diarrhea
constipation
loss of appetite
weight loss

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

What is wrong with the medical industry these days??? ADHD only exists in the minds of those who BELIEVE the drivel that comes out of the current medical community that THRIVES very well on the over-medication of Americans who have the INSURANCE to pay for it. Otherwise, this condition doesn't exist for those who cannot afford the BILL.

So, it doesn't surprise me that a "therapist" would support the "supposed" existence of this MADE UP epidemic. Your livelihood and reputation is dependent on its existence.

FAIL.

[edit on 22-8-2010 by PsychoX42]

reply to post by romanmel

No one can help another who is determined to be a "victim" regardless of the facts to the contrary. We are surronded by "victims" today whining about how fate has befallen them. Grow up...get a life. Stop whining and start living life.

do you also think diabetics are victims - victims of their own beliefs?

do you believe that there is nothing that can affect the way your brain works? It's a completely separate thing from the rest of your body?

it will always work just fine - regardless? For everyone? In exactly the same way - each and every time?

All brains work exactly the same way - and those people that seem to do some things with difficulty or claim to have 'learning disabilities' just don't 'perform' correctly? They're lazy whiners - and that's all there is to it?

They choose to fail?

real nice

by the way - amazon.com is not research - that is lazy and irresponsible

ADHD is the most commonly studied and diagnosed psychiatric disorder in children, affecting about 3% to 5% of children globally[4][5] and diagnosed in about 2% to 16% of school aged children.[6] It is a chronic disorder [7] with 30% to 50% of those individuals diagnosed in childhood continuing to have symptoms into adulthood.[8][9] Adolescents and adults with ADHD tend to develop coping mechanisms to compensate for some or all of their impairments.[10] 4.7 percent of American adults are estimated to live with ADHD.[11]

Neurodiversity
Main article: Neurodiversity
Proponents of the neurodiversity theory assert that atypical (neurodivergent) neurological development is a normal human difference that is to be tolerated and respected just like any other human difference.

Wikipedia may be pretty easy - but it's still better than what you gave us:
en.wikipedia.org...

Frontal lobe disorder is an impairment of the frontal lobe that occurs as a result of a number of diseases as well as head trauma. The frontal lobe of the brain plays a key role in higher mental functions such as motivation, planning, social behaviour, and speech production. A frontal lobe syndrome can result from a range of causes including head trauma, tumours, degenerative diseases and cerebrovascular disease. Impairment of frontal lobe functioning is also found in a range of psychiatric conditions including schizophrenia, attention deficit disorder and antisocial personality disorder. Frontal lobe impairment can be detected by recognition of typical clinical signs, use of simple screening tests, and specialist neuropsychiatric testing.

en.wikipedia.org...

there's plenty more out there - something even our OP was all too happy to ignore

when people give us their opinions - without having offered up any research whatsoever - what it does is exactly what's happening here

people want to blame 'the victim' or the stupid, uncaring, irresponsible, lazy parents of the little victim

the problem with this is - there are no victims here

unless you count the kids who won't get the help they need early on because everyone has decided that their difficulties in school and elsewhere are the result of bad parenting, a lack of discipline, too much television or too much sugary cereal

you have no idea how different the rest of these kids lives could be with the right tools

you would deprive them of that?

based on what - your uneducated opinion?

reply to post by romanmel


Please reread my posts (you can do so for any poster in any thread by going to the bottom of one of their posts and pushing the thread button).

You will see that neither me nor my children are medicated, and I have mentioned several non medication ways that a parent can deal with this disease/disorder, including cbt. There are things in the classroom that can be implemented to help children with focus issues, or hyeractivity issues. None of the methods include medication.

Education of course is the key, and the more educated one becomes on this subject the more they can advocate for their children.

No parent wants labels on their child, except perhaps the label of loved.

You accuse hordes of posters of riding to the defense of Big Pharma due to the fraud of adhd yet you continue a fraud of your own by suggesting all of the posters who are offering education and real life experience with this disease/disorder are drugging their children looking for an easy way out. That too is a fraud!

I do see both sides of this excellent topic so I'll just toss in my 2 cents...
Had a nephew whose Mom,my sister was rather "hard on" because she needed him to be bent to HER will and way of doing things in life,basically ignoring what he enjoyed doing.
Not saying she didn't have "his best interests" in mind but it truly was more about her when he was growing up.She insisted he had ADHD and found doctors who would agree to medicate him so he'd be more compliant...lots of years of mind- altering meds caught up with the kid at age 24 and he had a seizure and died.I stll hate the fact that I didn't try harder to save him / do more to try and make her see but she does now I think.
Long-term and combinations of the drugs used to control ADHD can be lethal not to mention that they don't really KNOW the effects because every day there is something new and not so improved being promoted by big pharmacy.
My nephew was a normal kid who just couldn't get out of the "cycle" created for him by others from an early age.
Another sister is a special needs educator in Fla and schools there receive "assistance and funding" dependent on how many ADHD kids are in a class...see the problem?
I think in many cases it's the system that needs to be medicated.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by Jezus

He isn't saying the "condition" doesn't exist.

He is saying that it is a natural characteristic of children.

Thank you.

Thats exactly what the OP says. The condition exists but it is not an illness.

Troublesome for parents and teachers? Yes.

Illness? No.

Curable with reduction of Violent videos, reduction of sugar and sweeteners and increase of loving care.

(In 80% of the cases)

Could you expound upon the other twenty percent of the cases to which you refer, adhd children/people, is what I am assuming you mean.

This is not a curable disease/disorder, if one was labeled add and reduction of violent videos sugar and increase in loving care "cured" the kid, add was not the initial problem.

But you say 20 percent of the cases are not "curable" like that, cases of what, adhd?

Which your title postulates does not exist?

How can you proclaim to cure something that does not exist?

And how dare you imply any of our posters here dealing with diagnosis of adhd just need to love their children more. How offensive and disgusting.

Originally posted by Inamorata
Respectfully, as a moderator, your posts should include some type of scientific evidence from published papers.

Please post evidence for the truth of this statement citing the T&C.

You are moderating a medical bored,

Please post evidence that I Moderate the medical board.

and stating theory without published basis would get you nowhere in the academic community.

This is not the academic community in case you haven't noticed...UFOs, Ghosts, Conspiracy....HELLO?

Secondly, ADHD/ ADD are, in fact, real mental disorders

Academia changes its Definitions of what is and isn't a mental Disorder over time. I wouldnt be so sure about this one.

Originally posted by PsychoX42
In fact, they shouldn't be mediated at all unless they have a very provable and testable condition.

Namaste and Love

Just so ya know. My daughter spent a week in testing and psych evaluation before being given specific teaching and meds - - which her pediatrician puts a 6 month limit on.

He also took time off from his practice to attend her psych evaluation with school officials.

Sometimes it is done right.

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I have to say that many people with adhd/add are extremely creative people, and some have learned to use their adhd/add to their creative benefit.

Or is it that many creatives are merely labelled "ADHD"?

I channel mine into writing.

What benefit do you derive from agreeing to the label "ADHD"?

Why not just say "I have a lot of energy"? Is it really necessary to view yourself as deficient?

Where do you get the idea I label myself, my kids or anyone else as deficient?

I do not have a lot of energy, most days I can barely drag myself through my chores.

I am participating in a debate about adhd existing.

You say lableing, I say diagnosing, semantics, there is little to discuss in that.

My self view is not up for debate.

Originally posted by pai mei
,“We’re bringing up a generation in this country in which you either sit down, shut up and do what you’re told, or you get diagnosed and drugged,” he points out".

From your link I also like this one:

During an interview on ABC Radio National in August 2007, Dr David Healy, the noted British pharmacology expert, and author of the book, “Mania: A Short History of Bipolar Disorder,” told reporter Jane Shields: “Just to give you a feel for how crazy things have actually got recently, it would appear that clinicians in the US are happy to look at the ultrasounds of children in the womb, and based on the fact that they appear to be more overactive at times, and then possibly less active later, they’re prepared to actually consider the possibility that these children could be bipolar.”

Originally posted by Skyfloating

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
I too have the crazy legs! I nearly always have a leg a bouncing.

I googled it one night and was so surprised to see others with the compulsive leg bouncing thing.

It is actually a safe and good form of release of those inner energies us add'ers possess in abundance.

Again, how is "overabundance of energy" a mental illness?

I never claimed it was, you keep saying mental illness. I do not believe adhd is a mental illness, but a cluster of energy/attention related symptoms that are due to organic brain chemistry.





[edit on 22-8-2010 by hotbakedtater]

reply to post by ladyinwaiting

Anyone who does not understand ADHD should study it carefully, because you covered all the bases. Even the violent kicking during gestation, which is not always present, but often is.

There is no question that in true ADHD there is some "organicity" involved, as there also exists in Autism and some other things I won't mention. (Of course I'm thinking many disorders listed in DSM have a biological base, including depression and schizophrenia, but nonetheless to identify and find solutions, one must have some criteria to refer to, which at least puts you in a particular "ballpark".)

I wish sometimes ADHD was not listed as a "mental illness", because really it isn't. It is a condition, as surely as a kidney infection is a condition. We have some very damaging "labels" to place on children, which do tend to create stigma's, but I don't think ADHD is one of those anymore. It's more like "ADHD? Wow, he's going to be a handful", kind of thing.

lady - I want to thank you

not just for this above - but for your posts throughout this thread

experience is worth it's weight in gold in a discussion like this

opinions are fine when it comes to arguing about whether or not aliens have four eyes or eight - and why are they always naked.

When it comes down to the decisions parents are going to make for their children, choices that will affect their entire future, educated opinions are what we need

As much as I would love to agree with this thread....Im taken back at how many people dont understand the need for labels.

Labels show us differences in things. I have been wishing for the lst 10 years almost that the label of ADD and ADHD did not exist. In a way now I am glad they do.

My oldest has always struggled. I remember the year he finally started to do a little better he was in 4th grade (its been a battle with attention and ability to sit still sense preschool). In 4th grade, he had a teacher that let him stand while doing his work. Im sorry....but standing while working is not 'like all kids' and for that very reason, he is somewhat 'different'. The things is that different....is OK. In fact its more then OK....it bring uniqueness to the child. I am not going to sit here and talk about the endless hours of homework at the dinner table (when my daughter finishes a forth of the time it takes him...or the endless teacher meetings I have had, doctors, hearing tests...its been a rough ride.

He has traits though that he is great at....like drawing, writing, figuring mechanics of things, figuring problems (you would think then math would be a breeze right?)

After about 5th grade he lost the hyperness....he is controlling sitting still really well now, he has to work so so hard at paying attention though. He day dreams...he forgets things that wont hold a interests to him.

Labels can be a bad thing....if the diagnosis is not true. But for me, the teachers are able to have a heads up with my son, they can know to poke and prod him more, to make sure he is meeting eye contact during discussions, to make sure to contact me if he slacks at turning work in. Kids like my son may forget to check the back of a worksheet....and low and behold there is another 50 questions on the back....if a teacher does not know about their attention span and issues...they will not get a chance to finish that worksheet. It is best to fact it, deal with it, and accept its just a difference...and all children have them (differences).

My 4 year old started preschool. He had early testing because we were worried he couldnt hear at age of 1-2. We would say his name...and sometimes he would act like he was just not hearing us. Come to find out...he had a late response in his brain, after he would hear something. He was hearing it, but the response from the brain was just a tad late on responding to the sound. He also had some repetitive behaviors called 'stimming'. He has trouble sitting still. Yes he is 4....but when I take him to class and see the other 4 year olds all sitting still at their seats...I have to wonder, what is it that causes my boys to not want to sit. Im not saying he has anything or needs a label....but so far, the hearing/brain response and the trouble listening/paying attention are signs I need to be aware of.

My girl (age 12) is a straight A student. I have looked into everything from medicine to diets, to home atmosphere, to exercise/keeping busy.

I am against the medicine...but I do know a couple of extreme cases where the children would not be able to even attend a regular school setting without the medicine.

My children are the world to me....and it has been very hard watching my oldest son go through the hardships of school for him. Depression has been a issue for him sometimes....grades drop to d's and f's...things get taken and put up (electronic toys mainly) plus its alot of pressure on a kid that knows they MUST do something but they worry they MIGHT not be able to do it. He has a sister that is one grade below him and his worry is one year he will get held back and then be in his sisters grade.

He would tell you....he has ADD....and he believes whole heartily that it is a real things that has been the reasons for his struggles in learning and school.

Even with general instructions with something that he does have interests in....he has issues with intaking all the information. Its like he gathers pieces, in random memory....not holding all the information he read. He has to read and re read and take notes and go over it all one last time to in take it.

Put the child in a Pilots seat or something, he could probably figure out how to fly it in 5 mins. Add instructions to learning how to fly....and you loose him. He is great at puzzles. He is good at all those little mind games/puzzles. He is good at magic tricks and card tricks. He is great at understanding the mechanics of things, how they move, why the move or dont move, space ect....

As long as the world stops seeing ADD or ADHD as a hinderence or a bad thing...these kids will start getting the things they need.

There are schools that adhear to the way these children learn and they are a success. They use hand on techniques...which seems to always work best for thse kids.

Edit to add...I forgot to mention all the impulsive behaviors my son had...till about 4th grade. So the ADHD turned into just ADD after he lost his impulsiveness....or controlled it I should say, because he worked really really hard at controlling himself.

[edit on 22-8-2010 by LeoVirgo]

Originally posted by romanmel
The OP probably did not anticipate the hoards of posters valiantly defending the idea of the ADHD fraud as real.

Indeed the onslaught is surprising. I'd have thought an alternative view might be better received on ATS of all places. It's been surprising and illuminating.

reply to post by Skyfloating


I have to agree with you... What's the test that they do? Is there a blood test? What is the test? If you have urinary tract infection like the other guy said, at least they can test you to see.. An actual physical test... As for ADHD, they diagnose you by looking at your behavior... Kind of looks like slavery to me. Being punished for not conforming to the standards layed out by some moron..

Society is changing.. Humanity is evolving, when 51% of kids are labeled as ADHD, would nt that make the other 49% out of the norm? Would they be given drugs to make them more hyper? Just a bunch of brainwashed people who are being manipulated into accepting the mass drugging of children.. It's ludicriss. It's population control. It's big pharma profit.. Wake up people.

Originally posted by thedude69
You probably have never experienced a child with severe adhd.

I have witnessed children with severe emotional issues. These require lots of love and change of lifestyle. Not a label and a drug.

They are severly disabled in the sense that they can only focus on immediate events.

"There is nowhere your attention has to be other than Here and Now"
- Guatama Buddha

These kids need to conform

Before they conform they first need to be heard and understood.

Teachers, unfortunately, dont have the time and resources to give care and attention to each child...but that would go a long way in "preventing ADHD"

reply to post by Skyfloating


I personally thing one of the causes of it is the change of eating habits for pregnant mothers in the last 30 years or so. Taking in less natural foods while pregnant...more processed foods with additives.

My opinion anyways. Our changes in diet I think has caused the workings of the brain to be just a tad bit different.

My other thought is that on a level of the mechanics of the human body, something is changing. We see it as a bad thing...but it may indeed be a evolving thing for the better.

I dont know about other children experiences, but my son has always had early experiences of things of Spirit. They started at age 5. My other son, who is 4, has some early obsessions that I take note of....such as drawing spirals. He has drawn them even on the walls of our home. If he has to sit still (like ina car seat, he 'rocks' his head). I bet you he has drawn over 1000 spiral images in the last 2 years. He started drawing the spirals before the age of 2. As soon as he got a writing utensil in his hand...he began drawing spirals.

Parents take note of things that may be nothing, but none the less, I note them.

Things are changing in some people...who is to say what its called or what it will benefit or what it will bring hardship to.

Sky, the problem seems to be semantics. You say ADHD doesn't exist. Well there's plenty of parents and individuals who have to deal with the symptoms that match a diagnosis if ADHD. Would you agree with this?

Okay, so if you agree with this, the next obvious question is : where do these symptoms come from?

Now, I think ADHD is a broad term for a lot of different things going on inside someone's body/mind. It seems in some circumstances it's mostly environmentally related. Whether that be too much sugars leading to a fungal infection and hyperactivity, or caused by a junk-food diet filled with artificial sweeteners/colors, pesticide laden fruits, etc..

Candida/ADHD link

Artificial Colors & ADHD

The thing is, many people can consume liters of soda a day and eat whatever junk foods they want and not develop ADHD. Why?? Because genes don't work in a vacuum. They are interacting with our external/internal environments. So what I mean by this is that there's definitely a genetic and/or transgenerational component to this as well.

Now what about the people like ofhumandescent who offer exceptional parenting and don't allow their kids junk food diets, to watch violent programming, etc.. How can you possibly blame bad-parenting on these cases?

It's bizarre and unfounded.

No. I think that in some instances people have a heavy genetic propensity to be ADHD, and it doesn't matter what you feed their body/mind they will always be like this to some extent.

So, what is your deal with taking such an absolute stance on this issue

It seems like you're attention-seeking and are getting a kick out of making people upset. You've mentioned messing with people before just because you think their beliefs are dumb. That already shows a lack of compassion and a feeling of superiority. Major signs of NPD, but then you also claim to be "spiritual" and are all about love and light. I think it goes further than mere NPD, but I'll leave that for others to figure out.

You're giving yourself away, Sky.

Wolf in sheep's skin.

[edit on 22-8-2010 by unityemissions]

My daughter's doctor never referred to it as an illness. He referred to it as a dysfunction or imbalance - probably in the brain. Sometimes damaged.

ADD/ADHD is an umbrella label. It incompasses all of this type behavior/symptoms. Kids have also shown behavior symptoms from allergies.

He said in most cases the child outgrows it when they go through puberty - - that either the chemical change in the body corrects the dysfunction and/or the area in the brain matures to its proper function.

However - sometimes the area is permanently damaged and that's when you have adult ADD/ADHD.

He said the most important thing is their self esteem.

Originally posted by Thermo Klein
I am offended by your utter lack of research, making a grandious claim on a long-standing issue, and simply being unfeeling to people who suffer.

The only issue Im seeing here is the Delusion that ADHD exists and that suggesting more Compassion in place of overdosing on drugs is "unfeeling for people who suffer".

Big Pharma really succeeded in making you people buy into all of this crap.

I finally had enough, took up serious meditation practices and LEARNED how to stay focused, I learned what I needed in order to stay focused

Yup, thats what I said previoulsy in the thread...stuff like Meditation practice can solve concentration-issues.

Oh...and they are Concentration Issues and dont require the label "mental disorder".

I'm offended that a moderator can pull this kind of crap.

Are you another one who wants this thread removed? There have already been several calls for that in this thread.