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A second way of salvation/worship besides faith.

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posted on Aug, 21 2010 @ 01:12 PM
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Hello there, I've been reading the three different books. I've been doing some religious studies over the summer (I still haven't read all of the bible yet, but, this is my conjecture). I believe that I've come across a second way of worship- even one that is admitted by the gospels. Faith is one way of worship. The other way- is the one that I try to do in my daily life. I don't accept the teachings of every religion... but I believe there is another way of worship- other than faith. This has to do with following the teachings.

Now hold on a moment. Following the teachings is just something people do if they believe in the religion? That's probably what you're thinking. But no, I've read a few books out of the bible- and I'm starting to read the Qu'ran, and, it also says something similar.

Yes, all three major religions tend to stress the importance of faith to the religion and to worship. But they for the most part provide another way. Jesus originally (minus what everyone else said) was very clear about what he wanted, about the two different options that he gave to people so they could get to heaven. He said that people can either believe in him- or- he also said that people can believe in his message. He said that if you do both things- than you would be saved. Let me quote a passage from the book of John.


Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

www.biblegateway.com...

The Jewish religion says that people should not make any other Gods other than their God (Jehova). I don't think it says explicitly that people need to worship them. In fact the Jewish religion seems to focus less on faith and more on rules and on rituals passed on from generation to generation. Take a look at chapter 20 from the Exodus and you'll see what I mean. The Jewish God seems to be more focused on rituals- than having people believe in it (yes, Jehova did want people to sacrifice offerings to it, but, that seemed to only be for the people of Israel who lived there, not for future generations necessarily).


And God spoke all these words:
2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand [generations] of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

www.biblegateway.com...

The Qu'ran says


2.159 Those who conceal the clear (signs) We have sent down, and the Guidance, after We have made it clear for the people in the Book,- on them shall be Allah's curse, and the curse of those entitled to curse.

2.160 Except those who repent and make amends and openly declare (the Truth) To them I turn; for I am Oft-Returning, Most Merciful

quod.lib.umich.edu...

Okay, now you might be thinking- this defeats the whole purpose of religion. But not necessarily. Do you really think that this God of yours (I'm an agnostic, so, that's why I use this kind of language) would only want there to be people who just mindlessly believed in him and followed his laws just because of faith? Perhaps- but he also wanted people to spread his message, and, that's why he let people have another way- and this other way isn't less good- it's just a different way of doing it!

You don't have to accept these Gods or gods as your deity per se- but, there are technically other ways of doing good for the world, besides going to church, or a mosque, or a synagogue all the time.

Those are my thoughts. What do you think?




posted on Aug, 21 2010 @ 02:12 PM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35
 

It sounds like a good start.
If you cut out the jargon from the official Christian answer, the official Christian answer boils down to "It's been tried, but in practice people can't keep it up, which is why we needed someone to do it for us".
If you prefer your religion with jargon included, it's all there in what Paul says about the "works of the Law".

But there's no harm in trying and finding this out for yourself.



posted on Aug, 21 2010 @ 05:39 PM
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reply to post by DISRAELI
 


It's what I've been trying to do for the good last 3 or 4 years of my life. I just honestly can't accept that the only way through salvation- if these deities exist- would be through faith. There would have to be another way. I think that they would be glad if people just spread more of a message embracing humanity, and, trying to get people to see the truth, or, what is the real truth and not just spin, from the rest of the world. If ya know what I mean. Aren't there rewards in religion for people who act as messengers of truth?



posted on Aug, 21 2010 @ 11:44 PM
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So you are saying live by an honor code. A code with morals. Believe in the existence of God and live by a code and your code is your worship of God? That's what it sounds like you are saying and it sounds damn good to me.



posted on Aug, 22 2010 @ 01:37 AM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35


Okay, now you might be thinking- this defeats the whole purpose of religion. But not necessarily. Do you really think that this God of yours (I'm an agnostic, so, that's why I use this kind of language) would only want there to be people who just mindlessly believed in him and followed his laws just because of faith? Perhaps- but he also wanted people to spread his message, and, that's why he let people have another way- and this other way isn't less good- it's just a different way of doing it!

You don't have to accept these Gods or gods as your deity per se- but, there are technically other ways of doing good for the world, besides going to church, or a mosque, or a synagogue all the time.


I've been reading this book, God is Not One: The eight rival religions that run the world - and why their differences matter by Stephen Prothero. It's basically a survey of religion which assumes the differences in religion rather than assuming all paths lead to the same destination.

I was struck by the radically different assumption that Christianity has; namely the "lost" condition that must be remedied. The solution is to believe this and that and a few more things and then you're "saved".

I was raised in Christianity and never really questioned that assumption. In effect, I believed that "in correctness of doctrine you are saved."

The religion I find most horrifying, from a western mental perspective, is Judaism. All that mandatory killing of whole tribes of people and destruction of every thing indicative of alternate religion. The Torah says those things, so I say, that's not my god. And it isn't, neither should I pretend that it is.

But what did Jesus say? "By their fruits you shall know them." On the one hand there are the Zionists who claim divine prerogative over a piece of land, and drive out all those in their way, with much blood shed. And I say, "Yes, they are doing what their god wants, and that isn't my god"

But then on the other hand, there are very many learned and devout Rabbis who abhor the current so-called state of Israel, and teach peace and exile as the proper attitude, and not the demanding of some prerogative, hence no one has to die. They have the same Torah. They have the same god. The fruits are so radically different.

I can only speculate that maybe the first group reads Torah the way I do, and the second group reads it in a way that I can't even fathom. Yet their conclusions are like my own. All I can say then is, it's a good thing I'm not a Jew, because I would be like the group I don't approve, rather than like the group I do approve. And is their god my god? I don't know.

I think when Jesus said that about fruits, it was meant as an indicator of any teacher or teaching, we can apply it to Christianity or Islam or anything. The books are books, life is life. Only life bears fruit.


[edit on 22-8-2010 by pthena]



posted on Aug, 22 2010 @ 09:50 AM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35
 
If you look at the quotes of Jesus in the Gospels, he seems to be saying two different things. It may be a little difficult to work out the implications. Conjecture enters in and there is no certainty of what the ultimate outcome may be.
1) believe and you will not die.
2) an unselfish good deed will be rewarded by God raising you from the dead to thank you.

Just on the superficial examination of this, I would tend towards 1 being a safer, meaning more permanent, thing.



posted on Aug, 22 2010 @ 05:11 PM
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reply to post by Frankidealist35
 


For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” –Ephesians 2:8,9

Faith is the means through which God has given us the gift of salvation.

Good works are the outward minifestation and evidence of faith.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 12:00 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


JMDEWEY60 could you please elaborate more on this idea and where it comes from? Thank-you.

2) an unselfish good deed will be rewarded by God raising you from the dead to thank you.



posted on Sep, 1 2010 @ 06:27 PM
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For a Christian it is simple really faith on Jesus being who and what he said he was is all that is required for your salvation. But if you truly believe you are saved you are moved to act in service to the community in whichever way you are best able.



posted on Sep, 2 2010 @ 04:04 PM
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reply to post by LAinhabitant
 
Jesus would go to dinner at people's houses, I guess to have private conversations in a direct sort of way, in order to teach different principles in a general sort of way.
This was the come-away from one of the stories he told in such circumstances.
I used that in an argument while being grilled on an atheist forum, where they were pointing out the injustice of Christianity, how good people go to Hell because they never heard of Jesus, or something.
They got tired of it after a while because I "obviously was not the normal type of Christian", maybe, or one who actually reads the Bible.


[edit on 2-9-2010 by jmdewey60]



posted on Sep, 4 2010 @ 03:20 AM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Thanks for the response. Still not sure it has any scriptural backing because then it could be said that we have salvation through works.



posted on Sep, 4 2010 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by LAinhabitant
reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Thanks for the response. Still not sure it has any scriptural backing because then it could be said that we have salvation through works.
Rev 22:12 Look! I am coming soon, and my reward is with me to pay each one according to what he has done!
Mat 6:1 Be careful not to display your righteousness merely to be seen by people. Otherwise you have no reward with your Father in heaven.
Mat 5:46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have?
Mat 5:12 Rejoice and be glad because your reward is great in heaven,
Mat 6:4 And your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you.
Luk 6:23 your reward is great in heaven
Heb 11:26 for his eyes were fixed on the reward.
1 Co 9:17 For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward
Co 3:23,24 Whatever you are doing, work at it with enthusiasm, as to the Lord and not for people, because you know that you will receive your inheritance from the Lord as the reward.
Rom 2:6 He will reward each one according to his works:

This is the verse I was thinking of earlier; Luk 14:14 "Then you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you, for you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

I was putting this concept of salvation at a secondary status because it is not perfectly clear what all the implications of this statement are.
Would you have to be already righteous in order to make this valid, or is this part of being righteous? And what is the reward, exactly?
If one was to take this as a guide to living, they would have to have faith in the one making the promise, first, so there is no complete righteousness without faith.



posted on Sep, 4 2010 @ 12:03 PM
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reply to post by jmdewey60
 


Thanks for giving that clear explanation jmdewey60. I believe one must have faith in Christ Jesus as that is how we become righteous. Rewards are for other things we do after we have faith. MHO


Rom 3:23 For all have sinned; all fall short of God's glorious standard.
Rom 3:24 Yet now God in his gracious kindness declares us not guilty. He has done this through Christ Jesus, who has freed us by taking away our sins.
Rom 3:25 For God sent Jesus to take the punishment for our sins and to satisfy God's anger against us. We are made right with God when we believe that Jesus shed his blood, sacrificing his life for us. God was being entirely fair and just when he did not punish those who sinned in former times.
Rom 3:26 And he is entirely fair and just in this present time when he declares sinners to be right in his sight because they believe in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Can we boast, then, that we have done anything to be accepted by God? No, because our acquittal is not based on our good deeds. It is based on our faith.
Rom 3:28 So we are made right with God through faith and not by obeying the law.
Rom 3:29 After all, God is not the God of the Jews only, is he? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Of course he is.
Rom 3:30 There is only one God, and there is only one way of being accepted by him. He makes people right with himself only by faith, whether they are Jews or Gentiles.
Rom 3:31 Well then, if we emphasize faith, does this mean that we can forget about the law? Of course not! In fact, only when we have faith do we truly fulfill the law.




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