Retired General Slams NY 'Mosque' Critics

Originally posted by Shark VA84
reply to post by sweetliberty

 

Most of the practitioners of Islam are very normal, friendly and productive people. Normal not in terms of their cultural norms compared to those in the United States of America, but in the fact that most just want to raise a family, live peacefully and better understand and serve their creator.

I've traveled extensively throughout the Arab World, some military commissioned, some personal, but I came to understand Arab culture in a way I never thought would be possible. Islam is as legitimate a religion as any, we can not let a few jerk-offs who happen to practice Islam smear the entirety of a religion or culture(s).

I'm thrilled to see the friendly, mature and truly inquisitive approach you and everyone else seems to be taking in this thread. Though demonized domestically in the media and thus our social circles, Arabic men and women have treated me with hospitality and friendship that rivals any on this planet. Though I have much more reading, researching and learning to do on the religion, Islam is as beautiful and tolerant a religion as any out there, if practiced as such.
[edit on 20-8-2010 by Shark VA84]

I completely respect Your opinion and thank You for Your service.
Actually I am in many agreements with the Arabic men and women and their culture.
What I seem to have difficulty with is when people have opinions such as the general, they default into grouping opposers into such negativity. Thats something I fear!

With respect,
sweetliberty


[edit on 20-8-2010 by sweetliberty]

You are selling for all you're worth

but it makes no difference


People know when they're being 'sold' a shonky bill of goods


The title proposed the 'general' as somehow meaningful in his ONE little opinion

But people aren't buying it

The 'general' is one voice, one vote. That's all. That's it


Out in the big world, the general's opinion doesn't matter

People don't care

They have their OWN opinions


and those opinions count

those opinions are votes !


And what matters is the fact that Americans have given the mosque

the thumbs down !


Those trying to sell the mosque under whatever excuse are barking up the wrong tree

people aren't interested in convoluted arguments by the snake-oil merchants or the Paid Posters

they don't want the mosque


and that's that

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler


Yes sir.

Friendships in the Arab world are intense to say the least. Loyalty, hospitality and support (moral or financial) is above all, and I can honestly say that I would place my life/trust in the hands of Arab friends sooner than I would many U.S. American friends, ones that I have known for years and years.

Ironically enough the same military that, according to many on here, brainwashed me (though I'm still not sure to what effect), trained me in the language, culture and history of the region, as well as a brief (though not thorough) lesson on Islam. The special forces commander you refer to was doing what the Army's special forces community does. We don't go in looking for the largest ass to kick all the time. We learn the culture, the language, study the region. We work with the local community, try to help villages and cities. The whole "hearts and minds" aspect of our operations is not limited to C130's pumping out radio stations or propaganda. It is about getting to know the local community and communicating effectively with them. I get the feeling some people around ATS think most Afghans would enjoy life under Taliban enforcement. They by no means are happy with civilians being killed by either side, but understand that we are not going to chop anyone's limbs or head off. I also get the feeling a lot of ATSers picture special forces climbing through windows like ninjas and murdering households of people day in and day out.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Shark VA84]

reply to post by Dock9


Speaking of which, damn those #ing bastards for allowing interracial marriages.

Most people were against it! And they allowed it anyways!

Pfft, they brought up this thing called the constitution, and used abstract concepts such as reason to come to the conclusion that it was alright? Clearly, this country has been dealing with this issue for quite some time.

Rima Fakih, Muslim Miss USA, Questions 'Ground Zero Mosque' Location

www.huffingtonpost.com...
Rima Fakih, the first Muslim Miss USA,

Rima Fakih, the first Muslim Miss USA, has come out against the location of the so-called "Ground Zero mosque."

Fakih, whose faith caused a bit of an uproar when she was first crowned, told Inside Edition on Monday that while she concurs with President Obama on the need for the protection of religious freedom, she also feels that the placement of the Park51 center is a little too close for comfort.

"I totally agree with President Obama with the statement on Constitutional rights of freedom of religion," Fakih tells the show. "I also agree that it shouldn't be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion."

NEW YORK – American Muslims who support the proposed mosque and Islamic center near ground zero are facing skeptics within their own faith — those who argue that the project is insensitive to Sept. 11 victims and needlessly provocative at a time when Muslims are pressing for wider acceptance in the U.S.

Akbar Ahmed, professor of Islamic studies at American University

"For most Americans, 9/11 remains as an open wound, and anything associated with Islam, even for Americans who want to understand Islam — to have an Islamic center with so much publicity is like rubbing salt in open wounds," said Akbar Ahmed, professor of Islamic studies at American University, a former Pakistani ambassador to Britain and author of "Journey Into America, The Challenge of Islam." He said the space should include a synagogue and a church so it will truly be interfaith.

He says the space should include a synagogue and a church so it will truly be interfaith.

news.yahoo.com...

Asra Nomani, author of "Standing Alone:

Asra Nomani, author of "Standing Alone: An American Woman's Struggle for the Soul of Islam," said she backs the idea of the mosque in principle but believes the feelings of families who lost loved ones in the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks should trump the plan.

"I haven't been able to support the building of the mosque right there in the location they've got," said Nomani, an advocate for women's rights and tolerance in the Muslim world

Tawfik Hamid, an Egyptian scholar and reformer

Tawfik Hamid, an Egyptian scholar and reformer who said he was once a member of a terrorist group, said he had a "conditional objection" to the proposed Islamic center.

He said it was not enough for Park51 leaders to call themselves moderate. Instead, they should "clearly and unambiguously" reject radicalization by opposing specific extremist practices, such as killing apostates, stoning women for adultery, calling Jews "pigs and monkeys" and "declaring war" on non-Muslims who refuse to convert.

Neda Bolourchi of Los Angeles, a native of Iran whose mother was on one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center, opposes the plan.

"To the supporters of this new Islamic cultural center, I must ask: Build your ideological monument somewhere else, far from my mother's grave, and let her rest."

Neda Bolourchi


WOW what a powerful statement, from Neda, there is always a Neda somewhere.

remembering, Neda Agha-Soltan.




[edit on 063131p://bFriday2010 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by sweetliberty


No thanks needed, but thank you for the kind words.

I understand your concern, but given the context and limited communication, I would be willing to bet the good general understands the many gray areas of this debate.

I think he was just responding en-mass to the opponents of the Mosque's construction. Talking on a strictly constitutional level though, the general has the right idea, no matter your side of the debate, in America you should be given the benefit of the doubt. There is also no doubt that the general has experienced Arab culture first-hand, and has felt the guilt that comes with being directly or indirectly involved in the loss of an innocent life over there. To come home and see all the seeming hatred (though I know it's not all fueled by hatred) probably crushes him a little inside. I know it did/does me.

I'm out to socialize a bit for the remainder of this beautiful Friday. I'll be back most likely tomorrow to continue any discussion. Thanks for the food-for-thought everyone, god bless, time for a few brews!

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Shark VA84]

reply to post by Shark VA84


To say that people have a lot of misperceptions would likely be an understatement.

Special Forces are a thinking man soldier, selected and prized as much for their highly honed fighting skills as they are for critical minds and the ability to think innovatively and independently.

With versatile skills that might call on them to play diplomat one moment, farm hand the next, to trainer, to recruiter, to guarding high profile targets like high ranking Generals and Diplomats, they are the best of the best.

Till one sees the face of war, the faces of war, all one can do is imagine it.

Our TV on demand culture, sometimes allows people who aren’t there to imagine they know what goes on there, but the truth is every man in life fights the war with the army he has, his own unique war, with his own army of one, and I imagine that to be true, even when you are in an army of many.

I think what ails so many people in these often failed dialogues is everyone imagines themselves to be enough of an expert to talk at others, but not to talk with others.

When that typically occurs and that talk is rejected it just leads to ego and hubris taking over and rancor.

We can learn from our enemies, we can learn from our friends, we can even learn how to turn our enemies into friends, and if not careful or friends into enemies, if we don’t learn to listen as well as we do talk.

Listening to some means obeying, but it’s just hearing and considering what others have to say, from their own vital and unique perspective.

I think if we all just learned to keep an open mind, and engage in honest discussions where we are just as capable of listening as we are as talking, then a lot of the stereotypical assumptions all sides have, regarding all sides, could begin to crumble.

Standing in the way of that though, is a world of frustration having to do with a myriad of other non-related challenges individuals grabble with and often then transfer those emotions and frustrations into and onto these emotional hot button topics.

Your even keel, your well spoken approach, your willingness to consider others and to hear what they have to say, is in fact in my humble opinion just what the doctor ordered.

You Sir are a credit to the human race.

Thanks.

Originally posted by Shark VA84
reply to post by sweetliberty

 

No thanks needed, but thank you for the kind words.

I understand your concern, but given the context and limited communication, I would be willing to bet the good general understands the many gray areas of this debate.

I think he was just responding en-mass to the opponents of the Mosque's construction. Talking on a strictly constitutional level though, the general has the right idea, no matter your side of the debate, in America you should be given the benefit of the doubt. There is also no doubt that the general has experienced Arab culture first-hand, and has felt the guilt that comes with being directly or indirectly involved in the loss of an innocent life over there. To come home and see all the seeming hatred (though I know it's not all fueled by hatred) probably crushes him a little inside. I know it did/does me.

I'm out to socialize a bit for the remainder of this beautiful Friday. I'll be back most likely tomorrow to continue any discussion. Thanks for the food-for-thought everyone, god bless, time for a few brews!

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Shark VA84]

You seem to have a pov that I think shows respect to everyone and are coming across wise. Your opinion and experience in this helps me greatly and I'm sure it helps many others too.
Please continue to speak to any who are willing to listen. Thank You for showing me another view of the general, the usage of words can either hurt or heal. You seem to have the heart of someone who wishes to spread healing and understanding as opposed to the sniveling nose wipers who use the media for the wrong agendas.

Best regards,
sweetliberty

reply to post by Shark VA84

It's not that I think that Afghans enjoy the Taliban, or that they don't.

It's that I (as a US citizen) don't care. It's not our problem.

Unless of course it's to get the rare earth elements or oil that are said to be abundant under the ground. But I don't think our corporations are really entitled to manipulate their society this way or that because they really want those resources.

As for their civilians and their government, we should get out, leave them alone, and wish them the best. And that doesn't mean propping up Hamid Karzai in Kabul (when he isn't at his villa in the Palm in Dubai) or making all sorts of humanitarian excuses for being there.

If we wanted to do something humanitarian, we would move a lot of troops from Iraq, Afghanistan and wherever over to Pakistan where people are being drowned by the biggest known flooding since Noah. That would win hearts and minds.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by oniongrass]

[edit on 20-8-2010 by oniongrass]

reply to post by Stormdancer777


And that had what to do with the Retired Army General and how to win hearts and minds in the Arab World?

Is there a way that the copy and paste, any platform will do to copy and paste brigade could actually deal with THIS TOPIC.

This is a STRATEGIC ASPECT of the Wars in the Middle East, winning hearts and minds.

Topical discussion would be along those lines.

There are plenty of other active Mosque threads to just post every link regarding every aspect of the issue.

This thread deals with how it is going to effect the war for hearts and minds.

Sure would appreciate if posters could focus on that topic, so we could have a high quality discussion, instead of just copying and pasting anything a person can find on why they don't like the idea of the mosque or why they don't like Islam.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

Before discussing how to win hearts and minds, or whether certain construction projects will hurt or help with h&m, it is logical to discuss whether we should care about the question.

I don't think we should care about the question. And I claim that that observation is on topic.

reply to post by oniongrass


Really if you don't care about the question, why the heck are you posting on the thread?

That's the topic of it????

This subject is not whether you are pro-mosque or anti-mosgue, it's about the very real strategy of winning hearts and minds in a war.

There is a war going on, so do you care about the lives of our troops, do you care about the lives of the enemy?

Look up Hearts and Minds on Google if you don't understand the concept.

If you feel there is no need to try to win hearts and minds, then that's pretty much all one needs to say.

If you feel there is a need to win hearts and minds discussing the STRATEGY of how that can be done, would be topical.

If you don't care about the subject at all, why be on the thread?

No her copy and paste job which is an identical copy and paste to another thread where it is also not topical is just an effort to use any thread for her platform which doesn't even pay lip service to the topic.

Once again this is what degrades these threads when people don't want to discuss the actually topical issues but make it about things that really aren't related to the issue.

It's so simple anyone but someone with an agenda could understand that.

Thanks.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

This thread deals with how it is going to effect the war for hearts and minds.

Hearts and minds ? LOL


What ARE you trying to sell ?

And why ?


Stormdancer's post was as appropriate, at least, as any other in this thread

Moreover, Stormdancer's choice of quoted material had more to do with 'hearts and minds' than any other post in this thread


Muslims *do* appreciate how divisive the mere suggestion of the mosque is, as Stormdancer revealed

But you didn't like that she revealed it, obviously

Yes. Muslims are allegedly experts in taking offence. Witness their alleged affront at Christian festivals such as Christmas celebrations for example

And the jewish-owned media tells us so at every opportunity !

Such as last Christmas when the jew-owned UK media hit the front pages with stories about inoffensive Brits being forced to remove Christmas trees, etc. from view

BUT --- big 'but' coming --- it was muslims who gave the lie to those news reports. ' We don't object to Christmas' they said. ' We actually enjoy Christmas and join in a lot of the celebrations with our neighbours' And the neighbours came forth and said, Yes, that's true. Mr and Mrs Hammidi here get along wonderfully with their neighbours and none the muslims in this town have ever objected to Christmas or anything connected to it. We're a very close community. We don't know where these claims about 'offence' are originating but someone is clearly trying to cause trouble here between Muslims and the rest of us '

Ah ha !

Now we have Stormdancer revealing that muslim clerics know full well how divisive the proposed mosque is. And the cleric explained why. What he said would be obvious to all. Yes, the site in question *does* remain an open wound for Americans. The muslim community is aware of that

So who, which group, is actually pushing for the mosque ? Who, which group, proposed it or got an islamic stooge to propose it

And who, which group, stands to gain most from divisions between muslims and their western hosts,

Well let's see.

Saudis are spending billions promoting Wahhabism /Islam in the West

But the Saudi 'royals' --- are jews !

Then we have the 'dancing jews' filming the Towers as they disintegrated and laughing on their cell phones

Saudis and jews were flown out of the US wihin minutes of the Towers destruction

Jews owned the Towers, which were due for demonlition anyway

Jews therefore collected billions in insurance monies

Jews control the United States and it's political puppets *and* the media

Jews have for a long time been planning religious wars between the West and the East, between Christianity and Islam

The phoney 'Islamic Terrorist' videos turned out to be a jew dressed as a Muslim and screaming for destruction of the West

Mmmmm.

And haven't I been saying for years that Judaism and Islam are the two claws of the same crab ?


Well, the pot's boiling merrily now, isn't it ? All going according to plan, isn't it ?

Let's see, how could they ignite a religous war -- something to kick it all off ? Wow ... here we go -- how about we plonk a mosque down on Ground Zero, lol. That should cause a buzz

And so it has

And Paid Posters are working like crazy


Then along comes the voice of reason in the form of Stormdancer and her quote by the muslim cleric about building a church, a synogogue and a mosque on the site

Nice idea. Bound to appeal to everyone. Because the average person is nice and kind and peaceable. The average person isn't interested in offending anyone or having wars

But that certain group ... an insane group I will add .... exists for war and bloodshed and divisions. Because they are what have always provided that cerain group with power, control and profit (in addition to temporarily slaking their desire for the blood of others. Christ, remember, told them Satan is their father. And would Christ lie ? Would Christ not know ?)

For some reason though, you flipped your lid and tried to pull your imaginary rank on Stormdancer and to silence her

Why did you do that ?

It's suspicious. Very, very suspicious.

However, you are simply one vote and have no authority to silence or browbeat anyone in this forum

I am another vote

And I appreciated Stormdancer's post

I also appreciated the cleric's suggestion that if any place of worship should be erected in that place, it would be appropriate that all major faiths be included

Nice thought. It would be nice

And I'm confident that the majority of Christians and muslims would wholeheartedly approve. Now THAT is 'hearts and minds' stuff in action !

So what could have been your objection ?

You don't want Muslims and Christians to get along ?

You want the division even as your post claiming otherwise ?

Or you don't believe jews would want to mix with Muslims and Christians in a combined place of worship at Ground Zero ?

reply to post by Dock9

What ARE you trying to sell ?

That people stay on topic, topic of this thread is Retired Army General feels all the inflamatory and prejudiced rhetoric towards this issue is hurting the war for hearts and minds.

That war for hearts and minds ultimately has to be won by the way, otherwise we will have nothing but open ended and escalating warfare.

Hearts and minds is the most important part of a war of occupation.

I am asking people to discuss that issue, NOT THEIR ISSUES.

Thank you.

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



When or more to the point *IF* you become a Mod

you let me know, huh ?


Until then, would you kindly (and I'm asking nicely) stop attempting to moderate and control this (or any other thread)

thank you

reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler



Further, if you scroll back

you will see that Stormdancer's thread

was very much concerned with 'hearts and minds'


In fact, she provided evidence of 'hearts and minds' commentary by someone of reknown within the Islamic faith

I noticed it. Others noticed it. Why didn't you notice it, considering you lambasted Stormdancer and others when they were clearly introducing 'hearts and minds' ?

reply to post by Dock9


Once again the Topic is winning hearts and minds and how the inflamatory rhetoric may be harming that process.

Are you in favor of concluding the war in Afghanistan with something that ressembles a victory?

If so do you believe that the key to that is winning hearts and minds?

Serious Military Leaders and soldiers alike will tell you it's critical including some of our own soldiers that have posted to this thread.

Do you believe that all the anti-Muslim Rhetoric in the Newspapers and Media and Blogs is helping win hearts and minds in the Islamic World, or is impedeing winning hearts and minds in the Islamic World?

This is all topical.

Once again please stay on topic.

Originally posted by Dock9
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler

 

Further, if you scroll back

you will see that Stormdancer's thread

was very much concerned with 'hearts and minds'


In fact, she provided evidence of 'hearts and minds' commentary by someone of reknown within the Islamic faith

I noticed it. Others noticed it. Why didn't you notice it, considering you lambasted Stormdancer and others when they were clearly introducing 'hearts and minds' ?

Actually no, it does not, not as it pertains to this thread.

Once again I am asking members to stay on topic.

Topic of the thread is how AMERICANS can win the HEARTS AND MINDS of the ISLAMIC WORLD, and how AMERICANS are helping to LOOSE the WAR FOR HEARTS AND MINDS IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD.

Once again please stay on topic.

if he does not have stock and vested interest in dinar and the money scheme used to transfer and "create" "money" on the instability of irak. then what he is saying is that these are his own views and he is not advocating he use his position prior or current for the manipulation of markets.

hes a fool

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
Muslim Community Center
Keith Olbermann - Special Comment

Video A must watch .... peace www.informationclearinghouse.info...

for that. I personally have seen Jon Stewards take on the issue and thought it quite brilliantly showed what this hoohaa is all about.