Retired General Slams NY 'Mosque' Critics

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984

www.evilbible.com...

Take your time at that place and view with an unbiased eye. Verse after verse that allows all sorts of terrible behavior.

The Bible before Jesus was a nasty piece of work. Luckily he abrogated the violent messages.

Perhaps that explains why extreme Muslims still kill in the name of religion while Christians don't?

If both Muslims and Christians were killing in the name of their god, you would have a very strong argument.

As it is though, it is a red herring.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
If it's legal then what's the problem exactly? You no doubt obey the law and they would be within the law, i'm struggling to see the problem you have with that.

I'm not sure where the confusion is?

I'm not confused. Are you?

Originally posted by ollncasino
The Bible before Jesus was a nasty piece of work. Luckily he abrogated the violent messages.

Perhaps that explains why extreme Muslims still kill in the name of religion while Christians don't?

You are kidding right? People kill in the name of Christianity. Are you a Christian?

www.guardian.co.uk...

Originally posted by ollncasino
If both Muslims and Christians were killing in the name of their god, you would have a very strong argument.

As it is though, it is a red herring.

Yes i'm sure the crusade were a red herring, you know where Christians killed Muslims in the name of god Oh and the teachings of Jesus were around then as well.

We're getting off topic here btw.


Edited because i misused a quote tag thingy.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ollncasino

I'm not sure where the confusion is?

I'm not confused. Are you?

You stated they would find a way to block this within the law, so what's your problem? Why bother posting at all if they are going to be able to block it? Surely your efforts would be better spent helping their efforts.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Do i really have to go through the Bible and quote some of it's more hateful verses? The verses about killing witches, adulterers, where it defends rape, child abuse, slavery and all of the other stuff?

Could you? I would find that interesting.

I haven't even got into adulterers, rape, child abuse, slavery and all of the other stuff in the Koran but I am happy to if you like.

For instance, Muhammed when in his early 50s (late 40s?) had sex with his 9 year old wife.

But still, you are missing the point. The Koran and the passages I have cited are inciting Muslims to carry out Jihad in this life against non-Muslims. Its a religious duty.

Muhammad took this obligation pretty seriously. As did the boys who crashed into the Twin Towers.

The fact that it was an act of Jihad is why this building as a memorial to Jihad. Islam like anyone else is obligated to pay tribute to its fallen. If not it is a smack in the face to every future vest/car bomber and all past. Leadership of the militant arm of Islam will lose face if they dont push for something as close to ground zero as they can get. Now with all this coverage and publicity its as good as if the mosque were right at ground zero.


I see a day when you can go to this mosque and they will have pictures on the wall of the men that pulled off this act of Jihad and the captions will change as time goes by untill you will walk in there in 100 years and the likenesses of these men will be inshrined and it will read...

".....Great were these men, great were these heroes, great in the war to bring on the Comming One to take the world for Islam...."

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
You are kidding right? People kill in the name of Christianity. Are you a Christian?

www.guardian.co.uk...

One crazy Christian kills an abortion doctor?

When Christians start wrapping semtex around their chests and crashing airliners into tower blocks, we can compare the two.

Until then, you are desperately grasping at straws.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Yes I'm sure the crusade were a red herring, you know where Christians killed Muslims in the name of god

Oh and the teachings of Jesus were around then as well.

The Crusades were hundreds of years ago...

The twin towers was 9. I watched on the TV.

Can you really not see the difference?

Originally posted by ollncasino
One crazy Christian kills an abortion doctor?

When Christians start wrapping semtex around their chests and crashing airliners into tower blocks, we can compare the two.

Until then, you are desperately grasping at straws.

Hey hang on a moment you stated that Christians don't kill in the name of their faith, i showed they do, you keep moving those goalposts huh Some Muslim nut jobs strap semtex to themselves only because they believe they are fighting a guerilla war. If Christianity were placed in the same situation i have no doubt they would resort to the same tactics.

Originally posted by ollncasino

The Crusades were hundreds of years ago...

The twin towers was 9. I watched on the TV.

Can you really not see the difference?

Once again you stated that the teachings of Jesus abrogated (your word) the violent parts of the Bible, i merely pointed out the crusades as an example that pointed to this statement being utterly false.

Christianity doesn't have suicide bombers because Christianity is the majority religion in the USA, it's that simple. If the roles were reversed you would find some nut jobs abusing the Bible to convince some poor person to strap a bomb to their chest.

We are now taking this massively off topic, hopefully a mod will delete your replies and mine otherwise this won't end.


I will stop replying to you actually, your account was created today and you have replied to any thread regarding Muslims. I'm smelling troll

[edit on 21-8-2010 by ImaginaryReality1984]

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Hey hang on a moment you stated that Christians don't kill in the name of their faith, i showed they do, you keep moving those goalposts huh

One Swallow a summer doesn't make.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
Once again you stated that the teachings of Jesus abrogated (your word) the violent parts of the Bible, i merely pointed out the crusades as an example that pointed to this statement being utterly false.

You should keep up to date with developments in history. The Crusades are now largely recognised as being defensive in nature.

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
We are now taking this massively off topic, hopefully a mod will delete your replies and mine otherwise this won't end. I will stop replying to you actually, your account was created today and you have replied to any thread regarding Muslims. I'm smelling troll :

I'm tired as well.

Cheerio.

Originally posted by ollncasino


The Bible before Jesus was a nasty piece of work. Luckily he abrogated the violent messages.

Perhaps that explains why extreme Muslims still kill in the name of religion while Christians don't?

If both Muslims and Christians were killing in the name of their god, you would have a very strong argument.

As it is though, it is a red herring.

But, they recognize Jesus as a prophet as well, which is post OT.

At any rate, I think that the OT become obsolete when Jesus preached because he was enlightened enough. C'mon now:

"And the truth shall make you free."

Exactly what truth and what kind of "free" do you think he was talking about?

Originally posted by ollncasino
I don't know NY local building control law either.

Still, the city can stop a house being built or a shop being renovated so the powers are almost certainly there to stop the mosque - all in a perfectly legal manner within the constitution.

Actually, even Rudy Giuliani (who opposes the community center, but then he built his political career on whipping up emotion post-9/11) has said that they have every legal right to build there.

In fact, they've gone through Community Board approval (which they won 29-1) and other hoops that they technically didn't need to go through.

NYC building decisions aren't made by the entire city, they're made on a neighborhood-by-neighborhood basis. This makes sense because most of us don't ever go to or see most of the other neighborhoods in the city (for instance, the last time I was on Staten Island was 2006; the idea of me having a say in what gets built there is ludicrous).

The neighborhood where the community center will be built has shown overwhelming support for it. I'm not sure exactly what the bounds are of the Community Board it went to, but 29-1 is an overwhelming victory for a building project in NYC.



To be honest, this is getting pretty far off topic, with various people just dropping by and giving links/snippets to things that address any and all issues related to Islam. To be more on-topic, I'll add:

I am concerned about the inroads that radical Islam has made in my city. I fully believe that there are mosques/madrasses/centers in my borough (Queens) where there are people trying to figure out how to Islamicize America.

When this issue first hit the national news, I supported the center for a few reasons:

1) I believe strongly that freedom of thought, expression, and speech are the most important freedoms that we have in America. I believe that hindering a private property-owner from building a project that is perfectly acceptable to the neighbors based on the religion he follows violates that right.

2) The neighborhood supported it. Tribeca was hit harder than people outside New York can know by 9/11. It was shut down completely for weeks; residents had to present ID to get into or out of the security zone, or had to relocate altogether. It lost many of its businesses not just to the physical damage but to the neighborhood shut-down. Judging by apartment prices down there, the residential sector has bounced back, but as you can see if you walk around it (or even Google Street View it), businesses are still hurting, there are still a lot of empty store fronts. It is my opinion that the people who live there know better than I do what will be good for its recovery.

3) It was immediately obvious to anyone who knows the neighborhood which way this was being spun by those who would shape opinion. To call a space two blocks away from the WTC site in an extraordinarily dense (even by NY standards) neighborhood "Ground Zero" was blatant inflammatory rhetoric designed to upset people who have not had the chance to explore the area.

Since I joined into the debate on the issue here on ATS, I've had the opportunity to look into the imam spearheading the project, I've learned that he has worked with the church I belong to in interfaith projects, I've learned that he and his wife run a non-profit that tries to improve the rights of women in Islam, I've learned that he's a Sufi, I've learned that he has led a small mosque in the Tribeca neighborhood for 27 years, I've learned that his congregation lost members who entered the towers as first responders, I've learned that he was down at the site in the days after 9/11 providing water to rescue workers.

I've learned that these Muslims are the very voices that people ask for when they lament how little moderate Muslims do to counteract the extremists.

I am concerned, like the general featured in the OP, about extremists. I am concerned that in my city there are Muslims who genuinely despise the values I consider most American. This is not one of them. This is a man who talks about how Muslims can integrate into America, not the other way around. This is a man who wrote an opinion piece for the Washington Post upholding the French government's right to ban face-covering.

I worry that if we discriminate against these most moderate of Muslims, it will play into the hands of the extremists who unfortunately also exist in my city.

reply to post by americandingbat


Stop talking sense!

Yes this is the very kind of moderate Muslim that people call silent, yes this is the very kind of issue that if managed badly could result in the extremists being given more ammunition to recruit people to their stupid cause.

The anti-Muslim extremists will use this to grab support without realising how this will result in more hatred of the west.

Ban this centre and watch the nut jobs pour in to attack the terrible west. Allow it, work with the local community, encourage interaction between the faiths and watch peace slowly rise like a pheonix.

As terrible as the world seems it is far more peaceful than the past, nations have slowly grown to rely upon one another due to trade and with time this willl happen with the middle east.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
You are kidding right? People kill in the name of Christianity. Are you a Christian?

www.guardian.co.uk...

One crazy Christian kills an abortion doctor?

When Christians start wrapping semtex around their chests and crashing airliners into tower blocks, we can compare the two.

Until then, you are desperately grasping at straws.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Yes I'm sure the crusade were a red herring, you know where Christians killed Muslims in the name of god

Oh and the teachings of Jesus were around then as well.

The Crusades were hundreds of years ago...

The twin towers was 9. I watched on the TV.

Can you really not see the difference?

He's not grasping at straws. You made the comment. He proved you wrong.

Originally posted by ollncasino

Originally posted by ImaginaryReality1984
You are kidding right? People kill in the name of Christianity. Are you a Christian?

www.guardian.co.uk...

One crazy Christian kills an abortion doctor?

When Christians start wrapping semtex around their chests and crashing airliners into tower blocks, we can compare the two.

Until then, you are desperately grasping at straws.

Originally posted by ollncasino
Yes I'm sure the crusade were a red herring, you know where Christians killed Muslims in the name of god

Oh and the teachings of Jesus were around then as well.

The Crusades were hundreds of years ago...

The twin towers was 9. I watched on the TV.

Can you really not see the difference?

The genocide of 300,000 Muslims by Christian Serbs in Bosnia was 18 years ago. I hate to grasp at straws, but thought I'd include that.

Originally posted by SIRTMG
He's not grasping at straws. You made the comment. He proved you wrong.

I stated

Still, how many suicide bombers has Islam produced in the last 10 years?

How many suicide bombers has Christianity produced in the last decade?

As I stated before, a single swallow a summer doesn't make.

Don't get me wrong. Both acts are terrible and should be condemned as religious bigotry.

In no way however does the murder of a doctor, by a single Christian, excuse the Muslim murder of 3,000 people by a gang of Jihadists.

What is your underlying agenda when you try to minimise the murder of 3,000 people by a group of organised Muslim Jihadists?


[edit on 21-8-2010 by ollncasino]

[edit on 21-8-2010 by ollncasino]

Originally posted by SIRTMG
The genocide of 300,000 Muslims by Christian Serbs in Bosnia was 18 years ago. I hate to grasp at straws, but thought I'd include that.

That is interesting. Can you be good enough to furnish us with some sources to back up your figures?

reply to post by ollncasino


Not that this has anything to do with the topic of the OP:

... over 200,000 Muslim civilians had been systematically murdered. More than 20,000 were missing and feared dead, while 2,000,000 had become refugees. www.historyplace.com...

Originally posted by SIRTMG
The genocide of 300,000 Muslims by Christian Serbs in Bosnia was 18 years ago. I hate to grasp at straws, but thought I'd include that.

It was US and European warplanes that bombed the Serbs to stop that genocide.

Should Bosnian Muslims not be thanking the USA?