True Capitalism has been dead for a long time, Commercial Oligarchy rules in the present.

Wasnt it Benito Mussolini who coined the term fascism? And even he said the term should have been more accurately called "Corporatism" Fascism has little to do with social or national ideologies. If you ask me these ideologies are for the sake of segregating us into isolated conflicting states of human and other resources. Divide and conquer with capitalism..

Perhaps if we go back to the the tally stick credit-based money system, and not debt-based system.

That appears to be the case evidently.

The stranglehold on Innovation, Entrepreneurs,Wayward Artists,

Dislocated Eccentrics,and Haphazard Brilliance is suffocated.


Can you imagine "The Beatles' trying to germinate in today's

Oligarchal Climate?

Savoy Truffle? Cheers

Originally posted by poet1b
The ideal of a self regulating free market is simply unrealistic. It does not exist, and it never will.
Part of governments responsibility in protecting the rights of man, is preventing fraud. This means that government must write laws that prevent businesses from doing certain things, like claiming their products can do things which they cannot.

I agree totally to the point your making here. Over deregulation was an extreme mistake which has not only cost jobs, lives, mass migrations of citizens seeking employment, and the shrinking of the middle class. The only problem is I agree corporations can’t self-regulate themselves, but let us remember the reason the government deregulated was because they were doing a horrible job at over regulating business which in essence was having the same affect. It’s almost comparable to a giant pendulum of regulations swinging back and forth from over regulation to over deregulation! I do think the only way for this out of controlled pendulum to finally reach a efficient balance would be for more citizens actively becoming involved in their local, state and national governments.

Originally posted by poet1b
A big part of our current problems is our governments failure to conduct treaties that are fair to the U.S. public. Instead, we have treaties that work completely in favor of the ICs.
We all agree that competitive markets create efficiency, but we are not going to have competitive markets until a fair set of rules are established, and then evenly enforced, for example, as in professional sports.

Again, another great point! This is an issue I think conservatives, liberals, Republicans, Democrats, and all Americans could agree with! I was a machinist for 17 years after I got out of the Corp, I have worked all over this country, it was never hard to find a job, it’s just every plant I worked at eventually ended up closing due to their in ability to compete with overseas manufacturing, this problem was further exacerbated by the Wall Street promoted idea during the 80s and 90s of a new world order free trade economy, which turned out to be just a false myth.

However, herein lies the problem Congress is the one who is suppose to set fair and balance treaties and tariffs. The politicians who we elect never end up keeping their promises, because once elected they start receiving thousands and sometimes millions of dollars from these multinational corporations who wish to keep their current system of unfair exchange between nations in place.

Here is an idea I have, why don’t we demand all of our elected officials when they receive any lobbyist’s money from anyone, not to personally keep it in the first place. For this reason: they are suppose to be representing the constituents of their districts, so I don’t think it should be a hard legal, political or philosophical debate that money should be split up evenly among all those who live in their districts. This would have two effects; one politicians would not be easily corrupted by money (they are only human) while hopefully fulfilling their responsibilities as an elected official, and two those multi-national corporations could not center their entire public relation lobbyist endeavors on just one person, instead for instance if a mining company in Colorado wanted support for an idea, they would have to consider a P.R program to all those living in that area, instead of buying off one congress person.




[edit on 21-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by RobertAntonWeishaupt
One thing that needs to be done is to eliminate the stock market ESPECIALLY the forced investment of the 401(k).
Consider this: a corporation can take action that is directly harmful to the domestic/local economy (i.e. massive outsourcing of jobs), and the average person on the street can see an uptick in their relatively paltry stock portfolio and feel good about the actions taken by said corporation.

I have believed this for years: your above statement is how the commercial oligarchies got Americans to quietly accept the outright raping of their traditional economy. Before the American public was shystered into replacing their corporate backed pensions into 401k pension funds, first they had to be convinced all the economic problems in the country during the 80s was not from the CEOs and Presidents of the corporations, but the problem led with the inefficiency of employees and organized labor, with their inability to compete with the unfair market practices in third world countries. How this lie was so readily received I still do not know even though I lived through the times.

However it was a win-win for the commercial oligarchies. Not only did they succeed in demonizing the idea of organized labor, while ending their responsibility in maintaining corporate pension funds, but they now had their own employees reinvesting their wages into their stocks. The only problem is they ended up creating an economic system where to put it simply the dog was eating its own tail, and eventually as we all have recently found out there is nothing left to eat!!




[edit on 21-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by StumpDrummer
How come everybody sitting around here always gripes and complains about how unfair the situation is ....
Quit bitching !!! save your money, apply for grants, start your own business, and make as much money as you can!! quit working for a company that doesnt give a crap about you at all!!! quit working for minimum wage ect
If you really want it bad enough you will do it
if you dont ..you just dont want it bad enough!! or
you would rather bitch about being broke all the time
Im also tired of all these people still on un-employment
go get a frikin job and shut up work 2 jobs if you have too

I am the one who checked your only star at this moment. Want to know why? You remind me of my mean old uncle who was a work alcoholic! One summer when they cut his overtime at the factory he traveled around selling tennis shoes from parking lots, not really for the extra money, but he believed time was a valuable commodity, and he was never one to spend his leisure time lying around on a couch, he had to be doing something. How does this apply to your statement?

Well I may not agree with the style of your presentation; however your point should be well taken by everybody, BECOME PROACTIVE INTO YOUR FUTURE. For example, I worked as a CNC machinist for 17years; I finally got so sick of my constant declining wages, constant lay-offs, and constant plant closings, I made a tuff decision. I decided to quit my job and start attending Indiana University as a full time student, don’t get me wrong I still had to find a minimum wage part-time job to help supplement my income along with my student loans. At the time I had 5 teenagers living in our home, we went from living in an upscale rental 5 bedroom house paying $950 a month, driving two nice cars, to downsizing to a 3 bedroom house paying $300 dollars a month driving an old Oldsmobile with the front left fender off. Five years later, I have graduated with high honors, beginning to teach social studies, while working on my Masters degree, because I hope to teach at college some day.

So like I said, your delivery may have been a little barbaric, but your premise is correct, if only people become proactive, make economic sacrifices, and have the courage to be brave enough to not be afraid to fail!!!!!

reply to post by ExPostFacto

As you may tell from my quote from Peter Kropotkin (a famous anarchist utopian), I love utopian ideas, it is my hope someday humankind will be able to evolve away from their primate pack philosophies to enter a truly enlightened golden age, where all would receive from society an equal share of what they gave, maybe someday technology will advance where an individual’s honest productive measurement of service to the common good could actually be measured. This makes me wonder if that times comes, maybe the highest paid person who would be considered the greatest value to our society would be the best garbage collector in the country?!

Originally posted by beansanmash
Having a small number of corporations that dominate the entire market is not capitalism. Also, it doesn't help that corporations are political entities now either.

One thing being a student of history has taught me those in power always will either have to give up some of that power or will lose it completely. Nothing ever stays the same; their time of change is coming. Someone someday will come up with a new revolutionary system of monetary exchange which will make even the free market system look archaic. In history first they bartered, then eventually feudal systems, then eventually maritime mercantilism, and then corporate market systems, eventually someone will come up with a idea which will quickly dissolve all those powers so quick it will be comparable to when the royals were beheaded during 19th century revolutionary Europe.

Originally posted by diakrite
We are dealing with a severely depressed and disillusioned populace.
Have to admit though that I do not know how to uplift those that are so downtrodden, that they truly believe their "slavemaster" i.e. corporations, mean well. Stockholm syndrome, so to speak.
A new optimism should be the base. From there on we can work our way back to the ideals of the Founding fathers.
Yes ,I know "naive idealism"..... Burt we have to start somewhere.

I don’t know if I would call it “naïve idealism”, you’re just a true optimist, I envy you. I have to work at being optimistic. But your statement reminds me of the quote, “The only way for evil to triumph is for good people, to do nothing.”

How can we get poeple back to simple colonial idealism? Well, the first thing is people need to turn off their televisions, stop watching the 24/7 yellow sensationalist media networks (who are the propaganda machine of TPTB), and just begin to become active in their communities again. How many times do people actual talk in deep conversations with their neighbors anymore? Once and if the general populace can begin to take this little baby step of being an active citizen, then maybe they will see there is a real world outside of their homes and workplaces.

Humans are social creatures (probably why the internet is filling the gap for so many), we need to be part of our local communities. I think if people could become aware of how much just one person can do to change the world, while even if a fraction would rise to that calling anything could be possible. I love the quote, “Some people see things as they are and ask why, I see things as they could be and ask why not?”


[edit on 21-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by poet1b
I think the struggle for survival is still the best motivator. I would like to see government kept within its bounds.

I think this is basically true, however the argument seems to always derail, evolving into the idea of either having big government compared to a small government, which I believe takes the focus off of the real problem. I want the government to be EFFIECENT, I could care less if its huge, medium, or small as long as it was not corrupt, stagnate and tied up with politicians who have failed to understand the philosophy of compromise on the name of achieving their re-elections. Although I seem to constant repeat this but I believe if we had a very active citizenry we could help keep corruption out of government, helping it to do it’s real purpose to serve the will of the people.


[edit on 21-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

Originally posted by bonnieprince
People are far too quick to forget history, theres the Tulip bubble for one.
Capitalism brings about a lot of development rapidly, but at the same time, its at the cost of those who are right at the bottom.

Your first quote steals my heart, it is so true. I am a historian, teacher, lover, and student of history. I think social studies classes have taken a back seat for too long, I know I am biased but I think history is the most important subject to teach in school. Everything has a history. A person has to know where ideas, things, the present day world has come from to understand where they should devote their attention to for the future we are all constantly involved in creating.

The second quote I took from your statement; the truth of what you have said can be easily found in the examination of any of the countries affected by pre-20th century colonialism, most of them still have not recovered from the raping of their resources by their colonial capitalistic masters.

Originally posted by TarzanBeta
I keep thinking about it... I keep plotting it all out.
As long as humans are human, there will never be a system that survives indefinitely, if at all.
The fact is that there will always be some people who are more popular than the rest. As long as this is the case, there will not be equality in a society, whether it be economically, politically, or, obviously, socially.

I have believed this idea for a long time. It amazes me how today’s present culture still has so many distinct similarities to pre-Homo sapiens primal tribal moralities. I have stated many times to friends, humanity needs to truly break away from their ancient tribal traditions and norms, it would be my hope this would bring about a new evolutionary existence, which is found only in either utopian philosopher writers or science fiction writers. I just don’t know if it is truly possible; however one thing is for sure, if we don’t than we won’t be around much longer I’m afraid.

reply to post by Perseus Apex

I agree with every point you make, but to my initial question, how can all of those things get done? My central idea was a more active citizenry, more consumer and economic discipline. I am aware of the disclosure project, I hope they will achieve their goals, but this can’t fix everything. Do you have any specifics to achieve some of the same ideas we have in common?

Originally posted by MojosGhost
Wasnt it Benito Mussolini who coined the term fascism? And even he said the term should have been more accurately called "Corporatism" Fascism has little to do with social or national ideologies. If you ask me these ideologies are for the sake of segregating us into isolated conflicting states of human and other resources. Divide and conquer with capitalism..
.

He did coin the term - but he did never say anything the like about "corporatism". Nobody has ever proven that he wrote anything at all like that.

The most popular idea on the Left is that fascism is when corporations run the government. Thousands of Internet pages sport this passage attributed to Mussolini discussing his Italian Fascist movement: “Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." Hit the delete button! So far no scholar I know has been able to find the original source of this quote. It’s not in the 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana as widely claimed. (If you have a print copy of the quote from the 1930s, please let me know, otherwise please refrain from e-mails saying you found it on the internet). The apparent hoax quote also contradicts everything else Mussolini wrote on the subject.

www.hnn.us...

.. As to the rest of the thread.....


en.wikipedia.org...


[edit on 21-8-2010 by NichirasuKenshin]

Originally posted by General.Lee
I would gladly pay more for my large screen TV in exchange for making them 100% in the USA and keeping people employed. The same goes for a thousand other products we "invent" but don't really benefit from. The VCR was invented in the U.S.A. but in generated next to zero revenue for us. The "Big Dogs" at the top made their millions from the technology then gave it away to the Japanese, Koreans, etc, to produce and sell back to us. Does anybody remember RCA, Zenith, Curtis-Mathes? They used to be some of the best TV's on the market. All gone.

If we all could just have the consumer discipline to stop buying non-American products; sure at first nothing may seem to change, the commercial oligarchies would probably continually drop prices trying to draw the consumer back into the same bondage, but if we could just hold out long enough, they would bring back the factories and the jobs, where a blue collar worker could once again afford the American dream, however my vision is probably way too utopian, but it is nice to dream. One thing I’ve done personally, I do not step a foot in Wal-Mart, haven’t for almost a year now! It is funny Wal-Mart got popular real fast way back when, by advertising everything in their stores was made in America, when Sam died, well his kids became the poster child of what it means to be overly greedy, they were not satisfied with just millions upon millions for their personal wealth, they wanted billions upon billions.

Originally posted by galadofwarthethird
Private ownership does govern free markets, so you all have capitalism; you all own and are owned. Oil floats on water= corporations/capitalism floats on the masses.

If only we had free markets, we do have markets but they are far from being free. There is ownership but there is no private ownership, but your right you, me and the rest of everyone else is owned by the commercial oligarchy populace. Oil does float on water and the corporate oligarchies have been floating on the masses, I just think its time for the masses to start punching holes in the glass bottoms of their boats, even the best boats sink. The masses just have to push an iceberg in their way!

Originally posted by MojosGhost
Wasnt it Benito Mussolini who coined the term fascism? And even he said the term should have been more accurately called "Corporatism" Fascism has little to do with social or national ideologies. If you ask me these ideologies are for the sake of segregating us into isolated conflicting states of human and other resources. Divide and conquer with capitalism..

It certainly was Mussolini, Hitler, and Tito who brought the ideologies of fascism into the governments of European states. However, during World War I, Italian guilds, mafia “organizations”, and syndicates who were the creators of fascism,they first tried to combine concepts from the far-left and the far-right with the idea of promoting a centralized extreme nationalistic common ideology, which had to be defended by any means necessary, this created the idea of fascism. But during the 1920s the movement quickly was becoming overcome by extreme right-wing philosophies, eventually embraced by the aforementioned fascists’ leaders.

Capitalism is selfish system and is destined to become highly centralised, globalised and exploitative no matter how hard one tries to make it 'fair".

There is a selection for power going on in social evolution.

The problem is that the left right and in-between use terms like "fascist", "socialist" and "communist" as insults which blur and obscur the words in themselves and the political ideologies that they represent. Should commercila oligarchy catch on as a phrase then it to is destined to be misused/misapplied.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by Tiger5]

reply to post by Tiger5


Good point Tiger, people need to realize the way TPTB incorporate actually grand and purely intended ideologies for the purpose of the betterment of humankind is never really the reality of the "catchword” which becomes in place. Although, whenever, I first came up with the descriptive term of commercial oligarchies I never attended it to be understood as an idealology in a positive light. When one reads the original proponents of Communism, Socialism, Capitalism, etcetera, those authors had visions of the grandeur of humanity becoming a better place for everyone, none of them I bet would of ever guessed how their ideas would become corrupted to enslave the masses into willing zombies!