Harry Reid: Taxes are voluntary! Rejoice!

Originally posted by Phage
Payment of taxes is mandatory.

The choice to file and to pay is voluntary in the same way it is voluntary to not exceed 25MPH in a school zone. You are free not to pay taxes and you are free to drive 50MPH. But don't bitch about it if you get caught.

If you file off W2/W4 then it's not 'voluntary' as the employer witholds and (hopefully) submits tax payments on your behalf but if you 10-99, then it is voluntary all-way-round.

Again, though, 'filing' is voluntary but paying is obligatory.

reply to post by Quaght


taxes are voluntary if your in the congress

taxes are mandatory for the rest of us peons


november november VOTE the pretender out in november:p

reply to post by abecedarian

Not filing if you have earned income is illegal; W2, 1099, or unreported.

You cannot be forced to file. It is a choice, it is voluntary (just like obeying traffic laws is). You can volunteer accurate figures or you can volunteer false figures. You can volunteer unreported income amounts or you can choose not to. But don't bitch about it if you get caught because it won't fly. And the big problem is that there are so many who do not volunteer accurate information and so few get actually get caught at it that the IRS often feels it's necessary to come down very heavy on them.

Screw november and kill all the politicians now!!!! Take back what is ours our freedom our rights and our money and our people out of that hellhole in Afghanistan!!!! OK yeah I know the feds will be on my a* after this post but the only time they're going to take us seriously is when we seriously scare the S&** out of them!!!!

Our system of taxation is based upon voluntary assessment and payment, not upon distraint.

Flora v United States

If a person has not been made directly liable for a so called "income tax" by the tax code, and they file a valid tax return any way, then it must necessarily be considered a voluntary self assessment of liability for that tax.

What makes you liable for this so called "Personal Income Tax"?

In order to know if you are liable for an "income tax" you must necessarily turn to the tax code to see for yourself if you have actually been made liable for a tax. Consider Title 26 of The United States Code; Section 5005, for example:

§ 5005. Persons liable for tax

(a) General The distiller or importer of distilled spirits shall be liable for the taxes imposed thereon by section 5001 (a)(1).

Do you distill or import distilled spirits? No? Then consider Section 5703

(a) Liability for tax
(1) Original liability
The manufacturer or importer of tobacco products and cigarette papers and tubes shall be liable for the taxes imposed thereon by section 5701.

Are you a manufacturer or importer of tobacco? No? Well then, surely there must be some section of the Code that explains in the same clear language as these two sections do how you became liable for an "income tax", right?

If there is a clear and concise section of the Code that explains in the same way that Sections 5005, and 5703 do on how one is made liable for an "income tax", I am not aware of that/those sections. I am, however, aware of 26 U.S.C. Section 1, that seemingly has convinced many people that this is the section that has "made them liable" for an "income tax". Perhaps you are wondering, at this point, why I keep placing quotation marks around the phrase "income tax".

It should be clear by the language of Sections 5005, and 5703 that income is not the subject of the tax, and in one instance the subject of the tax is the distillation and/or importation of distilled spirits, and in the other instance the subject of the tax is the manufacture of and/or importation of tobacco. In both of those instances, income is not the subject of the tax, but is merely used as a measurement to measure how much tax is owed. The tax is itself is not a direct tax as in a capitation tax, or tax on property, but is an indirect tax on a specific activity. Now, let's look at Section 1 that I linked above:

§ 1. Tax imposed

(a) Married individuals filing joint returns and surviving spouses There is hereby imposed on the taxable income of—

(1) every married individual (as defined in section 7703) who makes a single return jointly with his spouse under section 6013, and

(2) every surviving spouse (as defined in section 2 (a)),

(In part)

Clearly by the title of Section 1 a tax is being imposed, but what upon? Is it a) Married individuals filing joint returns and surviving spouses? Logic dictates that if you are a married individual, or a surviving spouse, and you are filing a tax return, then you have all ready been made liable for a tax, doesn't it? Of course it does! Thus, it must be that the tax has been imposed upon taxable income, not income mind you, but "taxable income". What then, is taxable income?

§ 63. Taxable income defined

(a) In general Except as provided in subsection (b), for purposes of this subtitle, the term “taxable income” means gross income minus the deductions allowed by this chapter (other than the standard deduction).

Is that clear? "Taxable income" means "gross income" minus the "deductions" allowed by the chapter in which "taxable income" is defined. Of course, the first clue that something is amiss lies in the "minus the deductions" part, as it stands to reason that only those who have all ready been made liable for the tax would be concerned with any "deductions allowed". Even so, perhaps it is best to come to understand what "gross income" means. What is gross income?

§ 61. Gross income defined

(a) General definition Except as otherwise provided in this subtitle, gross income means all income from whatever source derived, including (but not limited to) the following items:

Subsection a.) then goes on to list 15 different forms of activities that would involve the earning of "gross income". It is, of course, the listing of these various forms of activities that convinces so many that this is the section that has made them liable for an "income tax", but has it? Remember that the tax, unlike sections 5005 and 5703, has been imposed upon "taxable income", not income. If the tax were imposed upon income this would make it a direct tax and as such would have to be apportioned among the several states, and this tax laid upon "taxable income" is not an apportioned tax, so it is necessarily an indirect tax.

The language "from whatever source derived" is not the liability of a tax being imposed, but is merely the clarification that whatever source of "taxable income" a person uses to earn "taxable income" that source will be the measurement of the tax. Confused? Let's go back to the definition of "taxable income, and re-evaluate, as all I posted was subsection a.) and perhaps we should dig deeper to better understand:

(b) Individuals who do not itemize their deductions In the case of an individual who does not elect to itemize his deductions for the taxable year, for purposes of this subtitle, the term “taxable income” means adjusted gross income, minus— (1) the standard deduction, and (2) the deduction for personal exemptions provided in section 151.

Take note how just as it was in subsection a.), subsection b.) also muddies the waters with the language of deductions, just as the code muddies the waters in Section 1 by addressing people who are all ready filing a valid tax return, and all of this language does not in anyway explain how a person became liable for the tax to begin with. Also, where in subsection a.) we are given a new term to define, that being "gross income", in subsection b.) er are offered "adjusted gross income". What is adjusted gross income?

(a) General rule For purposes of this subtitle, the term “adjusted gross income” means, in the case of an individual, gross income minus the following deductions:

(1) Trade and business deductions The deductions allowed by this chapter (other than by part VII of this subchapter) which are attributable to a trade or business carried on by the taxpayer, if such trade or business does not consist of the performance of services by the taxpayer as an employee.

(In part)

What is a taxpayer? It should be noted that "taxpayer" is defined not once, but twice! Here are those definitions:

(b) Taxpayer Notwithstanding section 7701 (a)(14), the term “taxpayer” means any person subject to a tax under the applicable revenue law.

www.law.cornell.edu...

(14) Taxpayer The term “taxpayer” means any person subject to any internal revenue tax.

www.law.cornell.edu...

"Any person subject to any internal revenue tax". How did you become a taxpayer? Well if you are distilling or importing distilled spirits it is clear how you became a taxpayer, and the same holds true if you are manufacturing and/or importing tobacco products, but if you are not involved in any of those taxed events, then how did you become a "taxpayer"?

Perhaps it is the filing a valid tax return that made you liable. Let us look at the Sections that require filing tax returns based upon required records:

§ 6001. Notice or regulations requiring records, statements, and special returns

Every person liable for any tax imposed by this title, or for the collection thereof, shall keep such records, render such statements, make such returns, and comply with such rules and regulations as the Secretary may from time to time prescribe.

www.law.cornell.edu...

§ 6011. General requirement of return, statement, or list

(a) General rule When required by regulations prescribed by the Secretary any person made liable for any tax imposed by this title, or with respect to the collection thereof, shall make a return or statement according to the forms and regulations prescribed by the Secretary.

www.law.cornell.edu...

If you are filing a valid tax return, you are signing under penalty of perjury that all the above is true and correct. All the above would include your voluntary confession that you are a "taxpayer" as specifically defined by the Code, and under the law of contracts, that signature on a valid tax return is an agreement between you and the IRS that you have voluntarily assessed your own liability. If you have not been made liable specifically by an section of the code, but you are filing tax returns, you are doing so voluntarily.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Jean Paul Zodeaux]

reply to post by Quaght


Me too. He really does need to go, not just for Nevada, but forthe entire countries benefit.

Angle- well, we have to give her a chance. ANYONE is better than reid. ANYONE.

If she screws up that badly over the years, we will get rid of her too.

We already know how Reid operates, we gave him the chance and he screwed it up.

Now it is someone elses turn.

reply to post by neo96

Honestly this is nonsense.

Obama isn't even on the ballot this November, as if it would make any difference if he were. You're fairly typical of people who get all excited about each succeeding election. For countless elections in the past the people, in large majority, have tried to fix things by voting for the available candidate who seemed best. And they were betrayed again and again. Obama wasn't the first, isn't the only, and won't be the last.

And they'll make sure we have no good choices, or if we do, somehow that one won't win. Haven't you been paying attention?

EDIT: sorry maybe you meant Reid is the "pretender". In that case, I still think you're deluded. Angle was put in there because she's so bad she will lose. I have no hope she'll win.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by oniongrass]

Originally posted by Quaght
reply to post by LifeIsEnergy

 

If I may ask, what were the circumstances behind this action, Life?

Second line!

Without getting into too much details, I owned a business and after shutting it down, I was told I owed the state 300% more in back taxes then I actually did. I got frustrated with their demands and ignored them (stupid), and they put a levy on my bank account for the full amount they said I owed (which I didn't) plus fines and interest, and that emptied it. Lesson learned.

Moral of the story, if your going to play their game, play it to win. Otherwise don't play at all. There is no walking away in the middle of it and winning.

Originally posted by Phage
reply to post by abecedarian

 

Not filing if you have earned income is illegal; W2, 1099, or unreported.

You cannot be forced to file. It is a choice, it is voluntary (just like obeying traffic laws is). You can volunteer accurate figures or you can volunteer false figures. You can volunteer unreported income amounts or you can choose not to. But don't bitch about it if you get caught because it won't fly. And the big problem is that there are so many who do not volunteer accurate information and so few get actually get caught at it that the IRS often feels it's necessary to come down very heavy on them.

Gave you a star there, Phage, 'cause you're agreeing with me.

But you have to wonder-
if you file W2 then why would you be audited for not filing? Your employer has deducted and paid taxes for you on behalf of you in accordance with your W4 reporting.
if you file 10-99, well, that's your own bad luck.

As Reid said we have a voluntary tax system.

And, for the record, does the IRS have jurisdiction to collect on taxes?

Originally posted by LifeIsEnergy
Moral of the story, if your going to play their game, play it to win. Otherwise don't play at all. There is no walking away in the middle of it and winning.

Amen to that, Life. Sorry to hear that they got you that way.

I pay my taxes but I don't like it. I don't have to like it. I don't believe it is just, nor do I believe it is completely constitutional to levy taxes on households. But for now it's accepted that it is legal and I won't fight it. But for Harry Reid to say what he said was ignorant at best, but definitely irresponsible and misleading. He is just a small example of what is wrong in Washington today.

As far as what can be done about it? It's a beast that's difficult at best to kill. I'm personally in favor of a national sales tax to replace the monster we have now. It's the most fair IMO, and despite what the left says nobody would have to lose their jobs over it. We'd still need the IRS to watch and steal from corporations, and CPAs would still have jobs.

Others have lobbied for a flat tax, but I think a nat'l sales tax would cost less and be easier to track since the need to file a form is taken from individuals. Instead of the IRS getting 160 million+ forms a year (household and businesses combined) they get 30 million.

And let's not forget the increased revenue from illegal immigrants who are working in here now and not paying income tax. With a national sales tax if you buy it, you pay taxes on it. No way to dodge that one.

reply to post by abecedarian

Federal withholding tax is not a tax payment, it is a deposit against taxes you may or may not owe at the end of the year. It is the same thing as quarterly estimated tax deposits. You can claim enough exemption on your W4 so that little or nothing is withheld however, just as if quarterly payments are too low, you will be fined for underwithholding.

You have not paid your taxes until you file your tax return (and "voluteer" all information about all of your income and expenses). If you have taxable income you are required to file.

reply to post by For(Home)Country

People, including myself and many other ATS members don't realize that it's not the Government that is our biggest enemy, but rather the selfish mentality that just cares about "me".

Government is the pinnacle of unchecked selfishness. Anything done at the expense of the people, through force, for the benefit of the privileged is the primary function of government. Politicians get to play around with peoples lives, and essentially play God all the time with impunity. The entire idea of 'checks and balances' goes out the window when the serf is forced to pay for their own oppression.

reply to post by Quaght

How can the federal judiciary be independent and impartial when the law permits the federal government to secretly award judges up to $25,000 in undisclosed secret “cash awards,” and to privately, secretly and “erroneously” overpay them up to $10,000, and “waive” these erroneous overpayments?

linky
www.americanfreepress.net...

have a look in tax exempted income and find out what you can really be taxed on

warning youll be angry to find out that most people are exemted from income tax unless
the work for the federal govenment
brought money into or out of the country
and a few others

most dont have to pay anything but warning the last guy that tryed the law out endded up in jail for a long time

so dont try it but look up whos exempt from what taxes you will be amazed