reply to post by turbofan
Allow me to further clarify. Based on my actual experience, decades of experience, as a pilot for a major (U.S.) airline:
We are discussing events that are far from a slight 'bump' on the control stick.
IF a person, whilst seated in either seat, is slain there (throat slashed, which is the most likely case) then the body will still not affect the
control column. (Possibly
, I suppose.....a dead body might slump down, and the legs and feet impinge upon the rudder pedals. BUT, the
seatbelts would prevent that).
Here's another point to consider: Our seat positons are quite varied...and, except for critical phases of flight, takeoffs and landings, we CAN push
back a little, for more comfort. During the less critical phases of the flight.
Even back a bit, STILL able to reach all controls (possibly with exception of rudders, but don't use them anyway, except for an engine failure
scenario...in which case, will set the seat in proper position anyway....)
BTW....a COMMON posture, in flight....(not sure if I should share this??)
Take a look at any photo of an airliner's cockpit, and note the instrument panel...and the portion at the BOTTOM....it is a common place to rest
one's feet. (Will try to find a photo for example). IOW....(those seats are NOT ergonomically comfortable), we will often adjust our posture, and
seated position, with legs up...for variety. Hard to describe...you just have to DO IT, to understand the relief one can feel....
Found a photo to illustrate. It is subtle, but look closely at the patterns of wear, at the BOTTOM of the panels. Where one would normally put their
feet up, to rest them. If you see other Boeing, or even Airbus cockpit photos, you will seeother examples. Please peruse the
site, LOTS of good photos there!!)
ALSO, in this photo, (a B-767 cockpit, but the SIZE is very much the same in the B-757) you can see how far back the seats can be moved, and the
amount of leg space a person has, when the seats are fully aft and out.
Sorry, digressed a bit, to clarify....continuing:
There is full deflection of the yoke, and complete change of flight plan.
Not sure why/how you make that claim.
Only SSFDRs that were recovered were from AAL 77 and UAL 93. In BOTH cases, any control inputs, as you seem to describe, occured WHILE the A/P was
engaged. AND, no....there was never any "full deflection of the yoke". That seems to be yet another misconception/false assumption/urban
What is your best hypothesis to why/how the A/P is still active during this segment of flight data?
I have cited the NTSB reports, repeatedly here at ATS, that document SPECIFIC attributes, functions, and activity of the AutoFlight systems, from AAL
77 and UAL 93. Perhaps I should begin a thread on them? Might be a good idea.....
In any case, how do you propose these 'terrorists' would have made it passed the cabin door unannounced?
When it was opened??
Well....(again, am speaking about a time BEFORE 11 September) the F/As DID happen to bring stuff into the cockpit, for our benefit!!! You
know....food, beverages, etc. [***]
It was the MORNING!!! AND, long flights....most employee contracts (both pilots and F/As) require CREW MEALS be made available at specific intervals,
and under certain variables....such as LENGTH of flight, time of day, etc.
So...the answer to this:
When, or perhaps why was the door open in your opinion?
Should be obvious.
Flight deck doors were opened and NOT worried about, pre-9/11. With common regularity.
Interesting FACT....my last holiday to Europe, in 2009....on a European carrier, I sat in Business....THEY were completely cavalier about the cockpit
door!!! (Maybe I shouldn't write and post this....BUT, doesn't matter, since if I saw it, ANYONE ELSE could too).
B'Fast was served to the 'pit, and the door WAS OPEN for several minutes, whilst the F/A busied herself in the galley!!!
Look....THAT was the way it worked, in the U.S. too!!!
F/A's have to call, to gain access....they can't bring EVERYTHING in at once, sometimes....and, to not have to repeat the process (this, again...in
the OLD days) they just keep the door open, or hold their foot there, whatever.....
So, the answer to THIS, is above:
Who opens the door in your scenario?
And, anyone who's worked in the biz, or flown in the past, has probably witnessed such. (Unless you were stuck WAY back in coach!)
Last bit to think about: If there is a hijack, and the pilots or ATC is communicating the 'secret' code word/protocol, do all airborne
receive this information?
No. I won't describe on a public forum al the details about that question, but....NO! It never has the ability to alert "all airborne pilots", as
As regards any covert or "secret" code words...yes, there are a few.
BUT, there use is relegated to instances where YOU (the pilot) cannot "speak in the clear". IF you are aware of a hijacking (and there is, yet, no
cockpit intrusion) then...you simply communicate that fact to ATC, and the wheels are set in motion....(on the ground, by authorities).
IF you are operating "under duress", THEN
we have the "code words" and phrases....(which, AFAIK, are still active, so I will NOT discuss
ATC personnel ALSO know them, BTW....
[***] This reminds me of a VERY crude and off-color joke, that is a mainstay of the airline biz.
Shall I? OK....if you've read down this far, then that means you intend to see it ALL.
Edit....well, we're all (mostly) adults, right??
I added a bit of space, so that scroll-down is required...
(OLD) joke....(one) of the pilots accidentally keys the PA mic, as they are chatting up in the cockpit. So, unwittingly, everything they are saying
is being blasted to the cabin speakers.
One says (after his meal), "Well, after that steak all I need now is a good cup of coffee and a [insert term for sexual activity of some
kind....usually, the oral
kind]." (I HAD to do that, to self-edit....)
Of course, since the PA is active, the Interphone doesn't work, and the frantic F/As calling the cockpit go unheard (they've all been congregated
in the AFT galley)....so, the Lead F/A starts to run up the aisle, to bang on the cockpit door....and a passenger calls out, "Don't forget the
Bah dah bump!
Yah.....I know....sexist, and just plain WRONG!!!
(But, still funny, after all these years....IF you drop the 'politically correct' aspect away....sorry....)
BTW (PPS?): Accidental PAs? Yup, I witnessed it personally.
One that stands out in memory --- I was a new-hire, and still just a Second Officer on the 'panel' (that is the "Flight Engineer" station, in
olden terms) on the B-727. (WE were ALL pilots, but had to "pay our dues", so to speak....senority, and all that....)
So....sitting there, I had my earpiece/headset, and an audio panel, so could monitor ALL the VHF and even the interphone and PA. (Hey! It got
boring...what better than to listen in...OK, 'eavesdrop'....)
.....sittig there, still a "newbie"....and the Captain drops his pen. NO biggie, right? Weeeeeeellllllll..........
He squirms, and fusses, looking about (we've all been there, right? I mean...other than actually GETTING UP and OUT of the seat, he just was hoping
it would be an 'easy' find, his lost pen. ON the floor---within easy reach.
ANYWAY, have seen this before, paid little attention...UNTIL! ----
AS the Captain
leaned a certain way, his SHOULDER hit the MIC button....on the MIC that hangs there, on the aft part of the center pedestal of
the B-727...and he ACTIVATED the PTT button, just as a stream of VERY bad words began to issue forth!
I WAS NOT
THE ONLY ONE in the cockpit that heard this....we other two heard his comments....sice, of course, we were sitting right there.
I WAS THE ONLY ONE who IMMEDIATELY (since I was monitoring the PA in my headset) KNEW that he'd transmitted all that foul language to the entire
CABIN, on the PA!!!
Well...a split second later....Ding! Ding! Ding!
(Three quick chimes, on the Interphone....OUR "emergency" signal, in-house....meaning,
I think he (the Captain) eventually found his dropped pen. He was eternally embarrassed (and I hold it over him, to this day!)
The Lead F/A, to her credit....and this is priceless!!! (Because, again ....I
heard it, since I was bored and monitoring the PA)
SHE said (and I paraphase)....
....."I apologize for anything you just heard. I think it might have been Gremlins."
KID YOU NOT, true story, cross my heart, and all that......
[edit on 1 September 2010 by weedwhacker]