TIME Poll: Majority Oppose Mosque, Many Distrust Muslims

reply to post by Dock9


In your logic anyone that disagrees with you and defends the Muslim's Constitutional right to build a mosque is a dis-info agent? This countries Forefathers must be straight up criminals in your eyes right?

reply to post by Dock9

the Saudis -- by their own admission -- have spent 87 BILLION dollars promoting the spread of Wahhabism/Islam in the West

On the other hand, how much has the US spent in the Middle East trying to spread Democracy or should I say our way of life.

Originally posted by americandingbat
Telling them that they can't build on private land that they own not at the WTC site but blocks away is at least making the area an no-mosque zone.

I don't think anyone has said that they CAN'T BUILD. At least everything I've seen so far says that New Yorkers want it somewhere away from ground zero. They are ASKING .. not TELLING. A court would throw it out if someone tried to tell them what to do. (at least as far as I know it would .. it's been 'approved' .. right?)

it's not scheduled to be opened on 9/11/11,

That's the date that the TV news gave (multiple channels). If you have information that says otherwise ... great! A non-911 opening would be much better.

So why is it that most of the opposition is coming from people who don't live near where this will be built?

From what I've read New Yorkers don't want it near Ground Zero. Also, the reason people across this country are giving their opinions is because on 9/11 Americans all came together and pretty much adopted ground zero as their own. Much the same way Americans adopted Pearl Harbor as their own at the start of WWII. We went to war over what happened on 9/11 (and other things .. but that's for another thread). People in this country took NYC to heart. Legally only NYC can decide what to do with this, but Americans WILL have an opinion on it because 9/11 touched them all.

The proposal to move the cultural center is only reasonable if someone can suggest a location in the neighborhood where they plan to build as an alternative.

That would be great. But is it a 'neighborhood' center or is it a 'cultural center' in which people from the whole city would be partaking of? Did the $$$ for it come from that neighborhood or other sources outside of it. Kinda makes a difference.

If it were a neighborhood center I'd be right there with ya' saying exactly what you just said. But from what I've read it's a huge cultural center that could go pretty much anywhere in the city. Correct me if that's wrong. Thank you.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This country is crazy and many of the people are quite stupid and bigoted, and they try to disguise their bigotry behind ideas like "being more sensitive" and 'compromise".

Since those were my exact words when I suggested that the cultural center could be moved to a different location to appease everyone and keep the peace in an overcrowded city ... would you explain to me how exactly that win'win compromise is stupid and bigoted? Thank you.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by americandingbat
it's not scheduled to be opened on 9/11/11,

That's the date that the TV news gave (multiple channels). If you have information that says otherwise ... great! A non-911 opening would be much better.

Here you go:

Rauf said the mosque will not open on the anniversary of 9/11, and that it will take between 18 months and three years before the money is raised to open the center at the old Burlington Coat Factory building on Park Place, which was damaged on 9/11.

source

From what I've read New Yorkers don't want it near Ground Zero.

But more Manhattan residents support it than oppose it, and it got the approval of the local Community Board 29 to one.

Legally only NYC can decide what to do with this, but Americans WILL have an opinion on it because 9/11 touched them all.

People are welcome to have an opinion on it, I just wish that the opinion wasn't based on misinformation that has been spread by the media and blogosphere.

It's hard to know what to think of opinion polls when even here on ATS (where I think people are generally a bit more sophisticated about media manipulation than the general populace) there is such widespread lack of knowledge of the facts of the issue.

It's also hard because the reality is that most people in the U.S. really don't understand what Lower Manhattan is like. Two blocks sounds like nothing when you're used to parking lots that big; when you're used to Manhattan it's pretty far away.

The proposal to move the cultural center is only reasonable if someone can suggest a location in the neighborhood where they plan to build as an alternative.

That would be great. But is it a 'neighborhood' center or is it a 'cultural center' in which people from the whole city would be partaking of? Did the $$$ for it come from that neighborhood or other sources outside of it. Kinda makes a difference.

The money for it hasn't been raised yet. The purchase of the property was made by a real estate developer who is a member of Imam Rauf's Tribeca congregation (Imam Rauf has led a small mosque about a half-mile from the proposed site for 27 years).

The mosque portion of the project will replace his current space, which his congregation has outgrown; the community center portion will serve both the neighborhood and the city. It will include things like pools and exercise facilities that one would only use if they're within walking distance of one's home or work, but also an auditorium and art gallery that would presumably draw people from further away.


edit to try to get the quote tags right

[edit on 8/20/2010 by americandingbat]

Originally posted by Dock9
Not everyone who posts here has one iota of loyalty to the US or to Western society

Western society? Why western this, western that?

Well, my allegiance is to freedom not to some racial cultural supremacism. Maybe to my own supremacism, but definitely not a racial one.

A VERY interesting read!

How the "Ground Zero Mosque" Fear Mongering Began

Peyser also reports — falsely — that Cordoba House's opening date will be Sept. 11, 2011.

Beck Gellar push falsehood that Ground Zero "mosque" will open on September 11

We are in the preliminary planning stages of the center and the timeline has yet to be determined..

They don't even know when the groundbreaking will take place.



[edit on 8/20/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Since those were my exact words when I suggested that the cultural center could be moved to a different location to appease everyone and keep the peace in an overcrowded city ... would you explain to me how exactly that win'win compromise is stupid and bigoted? Thank you.

You're not the only one who has used those words. They're all over the media.

To have a compromise, both sides must be willing to give a little. If one side is not willing, then a compromise cannot be reached. Would there be anything wrong with them compromising? No. But if you found a piece of land that you loved and could afford and wanted to build a house on it, and the people of America didn't want you to because of your religion, would you be willing to compromise and be sensitive to America's desires? Even if the majority of people who lived around the area wanted you there?

It has nothing to do with 'fear mongering'

It has everything to do with symbolism


It is deliberate provocation

It is the public throwing down of the gauntlet


Any muslim who would support the mosque would be spitting in the face of their hosts

They know they can expect spit in return

The third party which is engineering and orchestrating this debacle

is working like mad to usher in 'religious wars' between Christianity and Islam -- and between the West and the East

and that is in order to create their insane 'rapture' and 'Armageddon'

(once they can arrange their elusive messiah and once they can locate a red cow, etc. etc. )


So why not build a synagogue right next to the proposed mosque ?

Lets ALL get chummy

And then how about we all contribute to the erection of a mosque in downtown Tel Aviv to demonstrate 'unity' ?

Yes ?

Originally posted by Dock9
It is deliberate provocation

You have no proof of that. That's just your opinion.

Any muslim who would support the mosque would be spitting in the face of their hosts

Excuse me? "Hosts"? These are AMERICANS. We're not "hosting" anyone.

The third party which is engineering and orchestrating this debacle
is working like mad to usher in 'religious wars' between Christianity and Islam -- and between the West and the East

Who is this third party you speak of?

and that is in order to create their insane 'rapture' and 'Armageddon'

(once they can arrange their elusive messiah and once they can locate a red cow, etc. etc. )

What? You lost me completely on that one.

So why not build a synagogue right next to the proposed mosque ?

No reason not to. I think it's a great idea. Yes, let's get chummy and start being more open minded and accepting of other people's choices.

And then how about we all contribute to the erection of a mosque in downtown Tel Aviv to demonstrate 'unity' ?

It's not my country. Contrary to some people's beliefs, Israel and The US are not synonyms. I couldn't care less what happens in Israel.

Anyone interested in the actual poll..see here

www.srbi.com...

Originally posted by Dock9
Any muslim who would support the mosque would be spitting in the face of their hosts

Let me guess, their hosts are the westerners instead of america the country.

and that is in order to create their insane 'rapture' and 'Armageddon'

(once they can arrange their elusive messiah and once they can locate a red cow, etc. etc. )

What the hell is that?

So why not build a synagogue right next to the proposed mosque ?

Go ahead, a gay bar, synagogue.

And then how about we all contribute to the erection of a mosque in downtown Tel Aviv to demonstrate 'unity' ?

This post is getting weird. Tel aviv is in israel.

You know what, why don't you open a thread regarding the conspiracy. I'm interested in it... really.

[edit on Fri, 20 Aug 10 by Jazzyguy]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
To have a compromise, both sides must be willing to give a little.

True. The muslims could build elsewhere. That could be their compromise as 'sensitive' New Yorkers .. and the other group could compromise and not oppose the building where it is. But considering that there are raw wounds that haven't healed, I think that's too much to ask for. I can't picture a Japanese culture center going up on the shores of Pearl Harbor just 10 years after it happened, even thougjh the Japanese Americans who would have wanted it would have been innocent. It would have been too soon. When I visited back in the 80s there was TONS of Japanese culture there .. Japanese festivals, Japanese cemetaries, etc. But it took time for that to happen. I'm thnking 10 years for NYC is just too soon. Ground Zero is still an open gaping hole in the city. People aren't ready yet.

I don't know what the compromise between the two groups could be. I think it would go a long way towards public relations and 'healing' if the folks with the culture center agreed to put it elsewhere. It might put some water on the fire of those who oppose it. More flies with honey .. that kind of thing.

if you found a piece of land that you loved and could afford and wanted to build a house on it, and the people of America didn't want you to because of your religion, would you be willing to compromise and be sensitive to America's desires? Even if the majority of people who lived around the area wanted you there?

It's not exactly that simple. Ground Zero is rather like a monument in America. It's like the Gettysburg Battlefield or Pearl Harbor. It's not just another spot someplace. Americans were asked to go to war becaaue of what happened there. (and other reasons, but ground zero is what 'sold' them) There are going to be sensitivities involved. It's not just putting a house up on some land somewhere.

Originally posted by americandingbat
source

Excellent. Thank you.

The money for it hasn't been raised yet.

The TV news says that some has and some has not. That there is a campaign to raise the money. Some overseas campaign too.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
True. The muslims could build elsewhere. That could be their compromise as 'sensitive' New Yorkers .. and the other group could compromise and not oppose the building where it is.

But why would the other group oppose it anywhere? What kind of compromise is that? "We'll respect your religion and your Constitutional rights if you don't build it where we don't want it"... ? Respecting someone else's Constitutional rights is not a compromise.

Those requesting the move could compromise by shutting up even though they have a constitutional right to free speech.

My final word ...

Just because someone has a legal right to do something doesn't mean that - in a crowded city where everyone is supposed to be trying to get along - they should do it.

If there was a home for boys in the city and the Catholic church wanted to build a huge seminary next door, it would be the right of the Catholic church to do so. However, even though the seminarians there were perfectly innocent, people would still not want the area crawling with pre-priests. (yes, I said crawling) It would make them nervous. They'd ask for the seminary to be built elsewhere. The church would be in it's rights to build there but for the sake of everyone getting along, it shouldn't.

The KLAN has a right to put an outreach office in Harlem. That doesn't mean they should do it.

People are nervous and unhappy about a huge Islamic culture center being so close to ground zero. They don't want the place crawling with muslims. (yes I said crawling again) They are asking them to move their culture center further away. They have a right to ask. The muslims have a right to refuse ... OR ... they could be sensitive to the issue and move the center. It doesnt' hurt anything to move it and it goes a long way towards public relations to help repair the damage done by the muslim radicals.

Radical Islam is a reality and a big problem within the Muslim religion. Radical Islam attacked the USA and continues to threaten it no matter what we do or don't do. That's just the way it is.

- out



[edit on 8/21/2010 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by Kram09
It's sad.

This is what you Americans have been reduced to. Suspicious, bigoted and paranoid.

Also what's with the labels being thrown around all the time?

Liberal this, Liberal that.....

Would you prefer Muslim apologist?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

So, people don't approve, but agree that they have the Constitutional right.

The constitution gives Muslims no right to spread their religion.

It merely prevents congress from interfering in religious freedom.

It doesn't remove rights from secular campaigners who oppose the expansion of an intolerant religion.

funny, most of these people here are not american, i bet.

lol, but plenty to say tho, huh!


9/11 affected every american everywhere.

maybe not every country that lost people feel like we do, since it wasn't on their soil it happened.

Originally posted by ollncasino
The constitution gives Muslims no right to spread their religion.

I agree with everything you said. The Constitution doesn't grant the right for ANYONE to spread their intolerant religion. In fact, look at Christianity. They've been spreading their intolerant religion for centuries.

It merely prevents congress from interfering in religious freedom.

I agree. It prevents any laws from being enacted that would interfere with the freedoms of these Muslims to practice their religion by building a cultural center where they choose, as long as it's meets the legal restrictions. The government cannot interfere here.

It doesn't remove rights from secular campaigners who oppose the expansion of an intolerant religion.

Absolutely true! Campaign away! I support your rights, too!

Originally posted by fooks
funny, most of these people here are not american, i bet.

Born and raised in the USA!


[edit on 8/21/2010 by Benevolent Heretic]