TIME Poll: Majority Oppose Mosque, Many Distrust Muslims

Originally posted by centurion1211


What question didn't I answer?

Centurion,

Do you believe they have a Constitutional right to build the mosque on their own private property?

Because, despite all of the opinion polls, it really comes down to whether you support the Constitution and the first amendment, or whether you believe Constitutional rights should only be allowed by majority opinion.

reply to post by centurion1211


Well this is not the first time that the majority has held a misguided belief. Polls can change within a short period.

The majority oppose the mosque and distrust islam ?

Well, the majority has spoken

Majority rule

Long live the majority

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by centurion1211


What question didn't I answer?

Centurion,

Do you believe they have a Constitutional right to build the mosque on their own private property?

Because, despite all of the opinion polls, it really comes down to whether you support the Constitution and the first amendment, or whether you believe Constitutional rights should only be allowed by majority opinion.

I believe that I've answered that in that they have the technical right.

I also (above) tried to point out that life always involves more than just the black and white "technical answer", and that people have to compromise on issues every day. If we lived only by black and white rules, a machine could decide all issues for us.

So to me and others here, this isn't so much of a "can they build it there? " issue (answer: yes), as a "should they build it there?" issue (answer: no).

Now you can answer my previous question, stripes or no stripes?

Originally posted by Dock9
The majority oppose the mosque and distrust islam ?

Well, the majority has spoken

Majority rule

So, next time there's a building project in your town, the residents of Tribeca can vote on whether or not it should go forward?

Originally posted by drwizardphd

Because, despite all of the opinion polls, it really comes down to whether you support the Constitution and the first amendment, or whether you believe Constitutional rights should only be allowed by majority opinion.

Want to add, let's see how you are feeling about what you just said after a bunch of democrats get voted out of congress. Will you be able to admit to yourself that a majority of the people have constitutionally spoken, or will you be one of the ones screaming about how it isn't fair?

Originally posted by americandingbat

Originally posted by Dock9
The majority oppose the mosque and distrust islam ?

Well, the majority has spoken

Majority rule

So, next time there's a building project in your town, the residents of Tribeca can vote on whether or not it should go forward?

You understand the different meanings between the words "can" and "should"?

[edit on 8/20/2010 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211


I believe that I've answered that in that they have the technical right.

I also (above) tried to point out that life always involves more than just the black and white "technical answer", and that people have to compromise on issues every day. If we lived only by black and white rules, a machine could decide all issues for us.

So to me and others here, this isn't so much of a "can they build it there? " issue (answer: yes), as a "should they build it there?" issue (answer: no).

Now you can answer my previous question, stripes or no stripes?

So then, you support the mosque being built, even though you don't necessarily like it?

If somebody wanted to paint their house with stripes, I would support it as long as it did not violate the local ordinance (where I live you are only allowed to paint your house in solid colors).

I support private property rights. If you own property, it doesn't matter what color you want to paint it, or what god you want to worship in it (if any). If i didn't, then I would be a hypocrite.

I honestly wonder how many of those polled really understand the facts.

I've spoken to many people that didn't know the planned center is 2 blocks up and half a block over with no line-of-sight to the WTC property.

They weren't aware that there is an existing mosque 800 feet away from the proposed location.

Maybe if the MSM would stop calling it the 'Mosque AT Ground Zero' the poll numbers might be a little different.

As far as people hating Muslims, I can't help with that one.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Jazzyguy

Originally posted by centurion1211
If you wanted to paint your house with zebra stripes and the law says you have every right to do it, but a majority your neighbors told you they wished you wouldn't due to how it might affect their property values, etc.

That is not a real law. I think you should find a real example of law that is made by real people.
Besides if you don't like the law, you should change it. Isn't that the patriotic way?

You are incorrect. As chairman of a city planning commission, I presided over many real situations just as I outlined with the force of city ordinances (laws) behind them.

Oh, wait I misread that. Nevermind that, although I never heard such a thing happen honestly.

Perhaps you should try looking at the issue without any tunnel vision that is only single-focused on "freedom of religion" and thus leaving out the feelings of real people.

Isn't that the same thing with illegal immigration? Human feelings among other things.
How about changing the law then?

How about other means? Like this.

If you like private property you should be for the NY Mosque

by Skyfloating.

I got into a heated Debate with a friend today. He is against the Mosque near Ground Zero because it is, as he says, a symbol of fanatical Islam at a sensitive site. I told him I have no idea who had the stupid idea to give Arabs land there, but it is their Constitutional Right not only to build places of worship but more importantly to purchase property. If others failed to purchase the property, that is not the Muslims problem. We got into a very heated and angry Debate in which I finally coaxed the admission out of him that fanatical muslims should not have the right to buy private property.

To which I responded: If you suppress their freedom, you are behaving just like "them".

Im still angry. My friend thinks Im naively unaware of the dangers of extreme Islam - which is totally untrue.

Those who have a problem with this: You should have purchased the property. You FAILED to. Now you"re whining. Get over it. In my Country whoever purchases property owns it and can do whatever he wants there.

What happens to good old conservative value, private property, the constitution.

Same like him, I'm not naive, and I personally don't think this is a good idea. The whole "mosque" thing is not directly my business, but the reaction is definitely interesting.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by americandingbat
So, next time there's a building project in your town, the residents of Tribeca can vote on whether or not it should go forward?

You understand the different meanings between the words "can" and "should"?

What I understand is that Dock9 is suggesting that this project should not go forward because people who don't live in the neighborhood and will never see it don't like the idea of it.

That the decision of a New York City neighborhood to support this project is less important than popular opinion polls of the nation that show opposition.

Originally posted by drwizardphd

So then, you support the mosque being built, even though you don't necessarily like it?

Never said the mosque couldn't be built. I've been saying there should be a compromise, with it being built somewhere less sensitive.

If somebody wanted to paint their house with stripes, I would support it as long as it did not violate the local ordinance (where I live you are only allowed to paint your house in solid colors).

The question to BH was how would they personally handle that situation? Not "someone".

I support private property rights. If you own property, it doesn't matter what color you want to paint it, or what god you want to worship in it (if any). If i didn't, then I would be a hypocrite.

Yes you would. I personally think (and have seen) most people willing to compromise rather than risk a future at "war" with their neighbors.



[edit on 8/20/2010 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by centurion1211

Want to add, let's see how you are feeling about what you just said after a bunch of democrats get voted out of congress. Will you be able to admit to yourself that a majority of the people have constitutionally spoken, or will you be one of the ones screaming about how it isn't fair?

Hmmm. I think this is a petty attempt at a cheap shot.

I'm not a democrat, I'm a registered independent.

I have never claimed an election was not fair. You can check my entire post history, and you will find this is true. In fact, I believe it's pretty disingenuous of you to assume that I would.

I have to admit, I'm not a fan of your debate style. You prefer veiled ad-hominem attacks to honest, thought out answers. You preemptively make assumptions about the person you are debating and draw your own conclusions based on those assumptions. I don't think its an honest style and it does a disservice to your arguments.

Originally posted by Dock9
The majority oppose the mosque and distrust Islam ?

Well, the majority has spoken

Majority rule

Long live the majority

Thankfully, in some cases, such as freedom of religion and property rights, it doesn't matter what the majority want.

The law protects Muslims to build a mosque where they're able to. It doesn't matter if most Americans don't want it.

If most Americans wanted separate water fountains and separate bathrooms, it wouldn't happen, because the Constitution protects that right.

I love the hypocrites, that go on about how the Constitution is nothing more then a piece of paper, and yet they're all for taking away rights of people who worship a different God.

Hypocrites, you know who you are!

reply to post by drwizardphd


My turn to say "so what?".

I also don't like your debating style which seems to rely on a lot of "shoot the messenger" tactics instead of discussing the message.

How about we drop the personal and stay on topic and discuss the OP instead?

My previous question you may have sounded "personal", but clearly was meant to root out any possible hypocritical thinking.

reply to post by centurion1211


Whoa!! Big surprise the United States is full of bigots and hypocrites. Now this is news to me!!!!

[edit on 20-8-2010 by Procession101]

Originally posted by centurion1211
What question didn't I answer?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
centurion1211, do YOU think they have the Constitutional right?

A pretty callous sounding question on your part since one thing people must do is find ways to get along - especially in areas like NYC where people are packed in together like sardines.

It may sound callous to you, but read my post. You can take my question to mean: It's too bad what other people want. Forget them! Or you can take it how it was posed: So what? What should be done? What's your point? I'm saying, OK, people don't agree with it. What next? If you were in charge, what would you do? What do you think should be done?

Let me make it personal for you. If you wanted to paint your house with zebra stripes and the law says you have every right to do it, but a majority your neighbors told you they wished you wouldn't due to how it might affect their property values, etc. What would you do - ram it down your neighbors throats just because you have the right?

But these aren't 'neighbors' who are being polled about the mosque. They have NO interest in the mosque. They are people from all over the country. America. The mosque is not going to affect the people in this poll one way or another. If 'America' didn't want me to paint my house with zebra stripes, but all my neighbors didn't mind, I would do it. It's none of 'America's' business.

It's one thing for a zebra house to affect property values, but this mosque is not going to affect ANYTHING except for those who choose to be offended by it. And that's THEIR choice.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Want to add, let's see how you are feeling about what you just said after a bunch of democrats get voted out of congress. Will you be able to admit to yourself that a majority of the people have constitutionally spoken, or will you be one of the ones screaming about how it isn't fair?

I don't know how many times I have explained this to you:

Majority Rules, Minority Rights

Do you not understand that, in this country, the majority cannot rule to oppress a minority??? What don't you understand about that? Having an election is NOT the same as voting to oppress a people!

Originally posted by centurion1211
You understand the different meanings between the words "can" and "should"?

Who decides how you 'should' behave? You, right?

Who decides how I should behave? Me, right?

What makes you think you have some kind of knowledge or authority to dictate how someone else should behave? It really bothers me that so many people have their noses up the asses of everyone else's business all the time! Jesus! This country is crazy and many of the people are quite stupid and bigoted, and they try to disguise their bigotry behind ideas like "being more sensitive" and 'compromise". The MSM decided this would be a great story and would sell a lot of air time and newspapers, AND - BONUS - it would make people argue and further divide the country.

Originally posted by centurion1211

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's sad to see that so many people oppose the free exercise of religion in this country... So sad...

Yes, we read here on ATS post after post by liberals denigrating religious freedom by using terms like "right-wing christian wackos", etc.

"right-wing christian extremists"...not "wackos". That is what liberals lament.

Like Islamic extremists. Every religion has it's unhinged zealots.

When you innaccurately state "Christian wackos" you are confabulating things in a dishonest attempt to claim that all Liberals think Christians equalls wackos.

Speaking as a Liberal...we think wacko's are wacko's...christian, muslim, agnostic, whatever.

Not Christian equals wacko. Christian "extremists" though?..loonybirds.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Really sad, and also hypocritical for those same people to get their panties in a wad over a muslim mosque ...

Wait! Liberals actually care about religion and are in favor of it all of the sudden? Wonder why the sudden change?

Not pro-religion...not pro-muslim or pro-christian....but Pro Freedom of Religion..Know the difference?

It's that thing that our founding fathers fought and died for when they created this country.

You are either intentionally trying to be confusing here for the sake of BS...or you are seriously confused.

Freedom of Religion...not Pro or Anti religion....look it up.

Originally posted by centurion1211
It almost adds more fuel to the fire over obama's is he a muslim issue, since his supporters seemed mostly agnostic or against any religion
[edit on 8/19/2010 by centurion1211]

Where do you come up with this mumbo jumbo? People who voted for Obama were agnostics? "or against any religion"??

Links please supporting this nonsense claim.



[edit on 20-8-2010 by maybereal11]

Pertinent to this discussion is the fact that the Saudis -- by their own admission -- have spent 87 BILLION dollars promoting the spread of Wahhabism/Islam in the West

We would be very naive and stupid not to suspect that considerable of those billions have been are being spent in forums -- as payment to creatures who are taking Saudi money to promote Wahhabism/Islam in the West

Not everyone who posts here is American at heart

Not everyone who posts here is Western (although they may sound so )

Not everyone who posts here has one iota of loyalty to the US or to Western society

They are here to promote the spread of Islam in the West

The much-disputed mosque is a symbol

Americans who oppose it understand that

Those who are trying to disguise that fact fill threads with discussions about the Constitution until they can swing the argument back their way again, assisted by their Paid to Post accomplices


The mosque is a symbol to Americans, WEsterners generally and of course to Muslims

If the mosque goes ahead, it's a slap in the face for Westerners and a win for Islam

people know this, regardless of the attempts to disguise it



[edit on 20-8-2010 by Dock9]

reply to post by Dock9


That's a giant, cheap cop out. Promoting the Constitution is NOT the same as promoting Islam.

Pssst! Everyone who disagrees with you in not a paid disinfo agent! GIANT cop-out! And totally false.