Is God a Dead Beat Dad??

no falken it's not well written. docs simple qoute.


'debil' throws his entire post out the window because he's bias. he's one of those people who spam god and use words like debil to try and sound funny.

don't let it change your mind on god.

God made love. He put it in our hearts. For God to create us with love, and not have it himself is ridiculous, unlogical and from the mind of someone with no understanding.



[edit on 19-8-2010 by JesusisTruth]

reply to post by FlyersFan


What if it might be a blessing from God to leave this world early as opposed to toiling your entire life away, finding yourself later unable to retire because you can't afford too, and then spending the last say... 15 years of your life in a nursing home. Not that everyone goes like that but some do. I've known several people that can't afford to retire and several that went to the nursing home. And several that can't afford the medicine they can't live without.

I can't imagine the pain and anguish parents face with some of the problems you mentioned. I have healthy children right now. We never know how long health will last. It almost brings tears to my eyes to think they'll need a nursing home one day though, when I look at their young beautiful faces.

Life is passing by quickly.

I hope I don't overlap conversation, but I skimmed the replies this time.

An excellent question, and it's precisely this can of worms that caused me to lose my faith. If God interacted in our lives in ANY way, then his willingness to allow some innocent people to suffer and save others cannot be understood as anything less than evil or negligent to our ungodly minds. The most holy among us sometimes suffer the most, and faith isn't going to help you if you lose a limb, or in your example happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I am currently still of the opinion that there is a divine creator of the universe, but I don't think he has "touched" his creation since he designed it and caused the big bang that brought it into existence.

Just like a scientist creates a maze and drops a rat in to see the results of an experiment but does not interfere, God just watches us to see the results of our collective will, but chooses not to interfere. The difference is that he created the experiment, the maze and the rats all at the same time, and he already knew the results before he started.

Maybe that's too simple of a simile to really explain the concept I'm thinking, but IMHO, we're on our own.

Yep, he's a deadbeat, but maybe he left us with everything we needed before he disappeared.

At least the better religions at least teach us to be kind to one another, which makes the stay here for all of us a little more pleasant.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
sure dead beat dads make kids, but god is different, he is the author of love itself.

Deadbeat dads are capable of being very fickle. love one minute and then ignorning people the next.

after death we wil see this.

Yes, once we are dead we'll know the truth. But until then, we explore and try to figure it out because no one in charge has given us absolute instructions on what is going on.

justice is a grace implanted in mans heart by god. for god to be deprived of justice and love is ridiculous and not logical.

That's just a faith based statement. Back it up with facts. Thank you.

God gives the rule and objectives in scripture,

Sweetie ... ya' really want to go there? The old testament? Mostly taken from Ancient Summerian sources. The 10 commandments; 9 of which came straight out of the Egyptian Book of the Dead, which Moses would have been very well versed in. The inconsistancies and direct contradictions in both the Old and New Testaments? The Psalms, supposedly written by David, have been found almost word for word in Egyptian worship hymns to ATEN; written by Akenaten, PRIOR to the tiime of David. on and on and on ....

just the way it's worded. most of it's against god.

Actually, I thought that the way it was worded mostly stated the hindu/buddhist thought of burning off bad karma .. collective bad karma ... that suffering by a kid with cancer helps erase the bad karma of someone on the other side of the planet .. that we are all connected ... but perhaps that didn't come across. That would be suffering with a purpose.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
so you're implying i just lied about that whole story which caused my ass 5 years of pure suffering which brought good to me.

Lied? No. Like I said in the opening piece, sometimes some good comes from some bad. But not always. The mind does rationalize things. Some think that the 'everything happens for a reason' ... 'suffering is just a test of faith' ... 'suffering burns bad karma/sins so others can come to God' ... Some believe that those thoughts are nothing more than the human mind inventing a PROTECTION for itself. Evolutionary psychology states that humans must protect their minds in order not to lose them. Inventing a reason for useless suffering protects the mind. That's a theory. It is rather sound.

everything god allows is calculated, even saying in scripture that no hair falls off of our heads without his consent.

Faith based statement based on scripture. I can quote other sources that say just the opposite. But I won't get into a source spitting contest because the authors of all the sources, including scripture, don't know any more than we do. (BTW .. I used to fully believe that. But since the Christmas tsunami, and events afterwards, I've been strongly questioning it)

keep searching and exploring op and you will find the answers.

Thanks. I will.

toodles back. i use toodles alot too. maybee we are soulmates.

Originally posted by Dock9
Do a damn good job with the anger. Freaking exhaust it.

Trust me .. I have been for four months.

Take your car out on a lonely country road ...

Oh hon .. if I did I'd be too tempted to plow it into a tree. And I can't really drive anymore. Eyes are too bad and I get dizzy and the limbs go numb ...

Of topic but I'll say it anyways - I've always supported Physician Assisted Suicide for any adult for any reason. (at least I think I have) It's a crime that it's not legal around the world for anyone who wants it instead of just suicide tourists going to Dignitas in Switzerland. It should be an option available to everyone. I would like it to be an option for me for in the future. But alas .. it doesn't look like it will be ...

Free Will demands there be provided CHOICE !

Yep. So where's my choice? Unless before I was born I was shown what would happen and I accepted it or something like that. But if that's the case then it would only be fair for someone 'up there' to let me in on it. And they haven't.

Here's your choice: either GOD was responsible or God wasn't around. He wasn't there. Or he just didn't care.

Pretty much says it all. And if this loving Father-God was responsible He has His reasons for allowing the innocent to suffer, right? What could they possibly be? THAT is the question that I'd like answered.

[edit on 8/20/2010 by FlyersFan]

[edit on 8/20/2010 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
God made love. He put it in our hearts. For God to create us with love, and not have it himself is ridiculous, unlogical and from the mind of someone with no understanding.

That's a faith based statement. Please back it up with some facts.
Thank you.

Oh .. if you quote the scripture (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) I'm just letting you know, it can easily be ripped apart. See if you can quote or show us something else. And yes, I'd really like to see it. Thanks.

Originally posted by Voyager1
What if it might be a blessing from God to leave this world early

Now THAT WOULD be a blessing and something that a loving Father would do.

But the problem is the way that people 'check out' .. children with lingering cancer and chemo .. the babies that drown in sand and terror in the tsunami ...

And then there are people like me who are stuck not fully alive but not able to hope for a quick death either. I'll be blind from the (untreatable) glaucoma and the Sjogrens, my teeth will rot out of my head from the sjogrens, my hair is falling out from the meds (I don't care about that but some people do), my limbs go numb, I'm dizzy a lot, Can't drive or help out much at home so I'm pretty useless now, my lungs ACHE from being burned out and I have continuing pneumonia and broncitis to look forward to, I have kidney stones, stomach issues, sjogrens patients have a high incidence of lymphoma so I have that to look forward to as well, I've almost totally lost my voice because my voicebox is dried up, I can'tswallow much and many times I feel like someone is choking me, I can't take most of the meds that would help with symptoms because sjogrens people are hyper-drug sensitive, etc etc etc. I'd rather have cancer. Then I'd know I'd either be cured or I'd die, but at any rate IT WOULD END.

Once a person gets one AI disease, the others pile on in clusters. Ive already tested positive for the RF ... so more will be piled on if I keep living (if you can call it living).

Ask someone with a strong case of AI (pick one .. lupus, sjogrens, RA, etc) and see if they think they are 'blessed' by God. I'm telling ya'll, the folks at my support group would look at you like you are crazy for even suggesting it.

If this suffering that people have had a purpose, it would change the game a bit. But I haven't found anyone who can convince me. I'm waiting for someone here to be able to quote a reliable source or give a good argument that supports that all these kinds of suffering have a higher purpose.

Originally posted by AlienMenace
I am currently still of the opinion that there is a divine creator of the universe, but I don't think he has "touched" his creation since he designed it and caused the big bang that brought it into existence.

I'm pretty close to thinking the same as you.

I know there is a God. I have had a handful of close enounters with Him. Not the kind that is self induced by whooooping it up in a fundamentalist church. I mean the kind that come out of the blue when you don't expect it and the divine actually touches your soul. There is no mistaking that.

I could have been delusional, but my psychogy training says that I most likely wasn't.

So I know there is a God. I know He knows intimately what is going on. I just don't see Him stepping in when I think a loving-father would. Then again, as I said before, who knows the mind of God. Could the 'useless suffering' be doing some good that we don't know about? I just don't get it.

[edit on 8/20/2010 by FlyersFan]

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by ben91069
It is because we are ungrateful sons that is the problem.

I'm definately ungrateful for pain, for choking every day, for limbs that are numb and sometimes useless, for kidney stones, etc etc etc ... I'm definately not grateful for those things.

Were you born with these ailments child? I am not trying to belittle you, but the key to health comes first with a clean mind. The negative thinking is like a man named 'Job' who did not know the purpose of the Lord. He was told to curse God so that his suffering would be over until finally God answered and put him in his place.

It is not always easy to see the reason you suffer during suffering, then when it is finished you are rewarded and you will know.

The first step is to learn to be patient and calm your own spirit...the rest will then follow. That is the first key to the kingdom of heaven.

Originally posted by Falken
He does say however, that he would act upon the prayers of a faithful person, and that he has done in the life of many.

I'm happy for you. Really.

However, this kinda proves my point about Him being fickle. When I used to pray in complete and absolute trust and love .... doing the knock and it shall be opened to you / seek and ye shall find thing .... I was ignored.

same with the kids with cancer ... the people who pray just to let the pain end .. their miracles from their 'loving Father' never come even when they ask in complete and absolute trust that He will help.

Originally posted by ben91069
the key to health comes first with a clean mind.

Sorry but I didn't get sick because I was mad at God or because I was thinking 'dirty thoughts' etc. It's just genetics. And the kids with cancer don't have cancer because they were evil.

It is not always easy to see the reason you suffer during suffering,

Which is one of the reasons I started this thread.
Why do people suffer with what seems like 'useless suffering'
Sometimes we can see the reason and some good that comes from it.
But mostly .. no.

then when it is finished you are rewarded and you will know.

Faith based statement. Maybe that's true. Maybe not. This thought process could be part of that mental protective thing that people need to do in order not to go insane .. give suffering a purpose ... otherwise nothing on earth makes sense. OR .. it could be true. I just don't know.

The first step is to learn to be patient and calm your own spirit...

I used to be. God was my best friend. But best friends don't treat each other like this. They just don't. And no .. I can't trust someone who beats me up and expects me to keep loving HIm. It just doesn't work that way.

There are so many inspirational, introspective and compelling members of ATS whose perspective on this I would love to hear…

For my humble take on it, I guess I tend to view it fairly simplistically, much like a garden.

Seeds are planted and most thrive and grow throughout their life cycle. Threats come and go - weeds crowd in, pests feast, it rains too much or not enough, temperatures soar or plummet – all affecting the beautiful flower that I planted.

If something happens to the flower, despite my best efforts, it doesn’t mean I didn’t appreciate its beauty or uniqueness; it doesn’t mean I didn’t love my garden or tend it well. It’s all just part of a bigger life cycle that I can’t see from my little yard.

But it’s important. It has meaning. It has a legacy.

It brought me joy. It gave sustenance to other life forms. I learned from it. I harvested the seeds and, here is where the faith comes in…I have hope for next year’s garden. All garden's have their seasons and every season has it's purpose.

FF, you have made God's garden more beautiful. You have made it more interesting, to say the least! You have inspired other flowers to grow. Your next season will be glorious.

♥

Well, I'm a vaguely agnostic Pagan (my view is similar in some respect to that of Terry Pratchett in SMALL GODS -- that belief can create spirits capable of doing some things and interacting or interceding in some cases and the more believers, the more power there is.)

However, as you said:

Are we just a misfire in evolution and these frail bodies we are stuck in are filled with mistakes because evolution isn’t perfect and we are a work in progress? Same with suffering from major natural disasters. Does that happen through neglect from God or is it just that the Earth is also in a constant change and we are stuck with the consequences of it?

Actually, we're not a "misfire" but we're very highly evolved. However, genetic laws and mutation (background radiation, degradation of information (genetic) transmission as things age) mean that we don't live forever, things wear out, and the wrong combination of stuff (or genes) in a certain environment can trigger bad medical outcomes. In the past, we all dropped dead before age 35 (or most of us did) so we never saw the outcomes of old age. The handicapped did not survive long.

And yes, the Earth is constantly changing. It has throughout the past (we can see traces of ancient earthquakes and tsunamis even back before the dinosaurs.

I think the worst thing for me is the phase where I'm in grief and in the "OMG! This is horrible" stage -- frozen in place without any idea of what to do next. Once I get to the "Okay... I ain't going down without a fight!" stage, I feel much better.

My philosophy. Your mileage may vary.

[edit on 21-8-2010 by Byrd]

That's a faith based statement. Please back it up with some facts.
Thank you.

Oh .. if you quote the scripture (Christian, Jewish, Muslim) I'm just letting you know, it can easily be ripped apart. See if you can quote or show us something else. And yes, I'd really like to see it. Thanks.

[op]



no it's a reality baised statment. assuming we believe in god, love is a reality. it's a feeling and a choice. it exist. i see it everyday.

souls chose grace, grace is the feeling part.

I love my animals.

my friends growing up were cruel to animals.

it's grace God puts there.

for God to give us love and not have it is a ridiculous human assupmtion.


you're good right flyers fan.

who made you.

you seem to care a hell of alot for the dying everywhere.

who put that in your heart.


when the apple falls too far from the tree, it gets caught up in pride and withers away.

keep searching. good day friend.

peace.

reply to post by kosmicjack


You have a nice outlook. I used to. I'm just not able to now.

So yesterday I found out the cancer is back. Not enough to kill me, but enough to require some painful surgery. Lovely.

Talked to a Catholic priest a while back and asked about all this stuff. Is God a deadbeat dad who doesn't care about His creation. The priest said that we won't understand it while we are alive no matter how hard we try, and once we are dead we'll know the truth about it all but won't really care anymore.

In other words .. don't waste time trying to figure it out 'cuz we won't.
(I guess)

It is rather perplexing though.

Originally posted by ben91069
........the key to health comes first with a clean mind.

Originally posted by Flyersfan
Sorry but I didn't get sick because I was mad at God or because I was thinking 'dirty thoughts' etc................................(and)..........................
Faith based statement. Maybe that's true. Maybe not.

There lies your reason for your problem. Here lies the unclean mind. You aren't mad at God yet you look to find him in your life based on proof rather than faith. Until you believe first, and accept that faith is the way to find him, you won't find the reason why you suffer. That is the first step.

Originally posted by ben91069
There lies your reason for your problem. Here lies the unclean mind. You aren't mad at God yet you look to find him in your life based on proof rather than faith.

1 - My problem? I don't think it's a 'problem'. It's a perplexity. I wouldn't label it a 'problem'.

2 - Asking 'why' is NOT indicitive of an 'unclean mind'. :bash:

3 - I USED to trust God without question. 25 years of it. Indepth and absolute. 'Close encounters' of the spiritual kind .. of the Holy Spirit kind ... of the locution kind ... praying every day ... reading and studying scripture and the writings of the saints ... etc etc But then I started looking around and actually saw what was going on and I started to wonder why it was all happening. I'm using the brain GOD gave me.

4 - "ask and ye shall receive" "knock and it shall be opened unto you" etc etc ... I'm finding that really isn't true. So it makes me wonder and I ask the question ... 'is God a deadbeat dad?'

reply to post by FlyersFan


Again, when you sought why, that is when you lost faith. Love always trusts. Asking why is mistrust.

It is comparable to a child asking their parents why they should not place their finger in a light socket. The child is unable to understand the reasons, only the pain, yet their parents tell them not to and they would be far better off if they would trust their parents rather than attempt to find out the hard way. Eventually the child grows wise enough that they can understand why they shouldn't and then they become in agreement with their parents without getting electrocuted. This is how it is with you. God is asking you to be patient as he molds your knowledge for a later time. That is one of the main reasons for suffering.

Originally posted by ben91069
Love always trusts. Asking why is mistrust.

You betchya I don't trust Him anymore.

It is comparable to a child asking their parents why they should not place their finger in a light socket.

No. Its comparable to a polite child who adored her Father getting spanked for no reason and inbetween hits the Father saying "i'mbeating you for your own good' "I am hurting you for no reason that I can tell you but I love you". A child who had basically done nothing to deserve being beaten to a pulp ... and then not being told why she's being beaten ... but being told you have to love the authority figure who is doing the uncalled for beating and not even explaining himself as to why .... that's what it is comparable to.

God is asking you to be patient as he molds your knowledge for a later time. That is one of the main reasons for suffering.

'Molds my knowledge'. Great. But to gain and mold knowledge He has to EXPLAIN HIMSELF as to why it is going on. He has to explain why He not only allows, but ordains, major disasters and suffering. No 'molding of knowledge' goes on that I know of when a child is suffering through chemo only to die painfully. The only molding going on there is parents and friends who lose their faith and trust in God because they can see the cruelty. If there is any good from that situation, God has failed to explain it. Of course people aren't going to be patient and trusting when that happens.