The Christian Trinity and Islam.

reply to post by halfoldman


David, in Psalm 51, pleads with God to not take His Holy Spirit away ... - The existance of the Holy Spirit in the OT is not mentioned otherwise, but David's Psalm is an insight into David's belief of God as more than One Person

reply to post by babloyi


People often say that Jesus didn't claim to be God or Divine - But over and over again there are the same lines in the OT as in the New. The Quran does not hold Jesus in Divinity - It states clearly that He is a prophet and He cleared the way for Mohamed - who they say is the comforter - whereas Chrisitans say the Comforter came at the moment of Pentecost - There's very little comparison between Christianity and Islam, Islam was constructed to lead Christians into another avenue, misleading them into thinking it was the same God as The God of Isreal they pray to - But it is not. Below are some lines confirming God and Jesus as One

God created the universe and earth
Jesus Christ created the universe and Earth

I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself. Isaiah 44:24
Unto the Son he saith...Thou, LORD, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands. Hebrews 1:10

God is the Word.
Jesus is the Word.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God John 1:1
...the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us...John 1:14

God is the first and the last.
Jesus is the first and the last.

I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. Isaiah 41:4
Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:" Revelation 1:17

God forgives sins.
Jesus forgives sins.

[T]he Lord..forgiveth all thine iniquities... Psalm 103:2-3
Jesus...said..."Son, thy sins be forgiven thee." Mark 2:5

God never changes.
Jesus never changes.

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

reply to post by NumeroUnox1


According to the Quran:
Jesus is mentioned more times in the Quran than any other prophet by the way.

The book given to him (Christian gospel) is called the Injeel. Jesus is known as prophet Isa and is one of Allah's most beloved messengers, a precursor to prophet Muhammad. It also states that Mary (Maryam) was a righteous woman. According to the Quran Adam was a prophet, he was born with neither a mother nor a father. Therefore Prophet Isa's miraculous birth affords him no higher standing or presumed partnership with Allah. The Quran denies that he was part of God or God himself, he was regarded as a human prophet. He did perform miracles such as healing the blind. He lived for 33 years and was not crucified (they jews crucified the wrong person?). He was raised into the sky on the night of the 21st of Ramadhan. Jesus will come back with the twelfth imam Al-mahdi. He will destroy the anti-christ (dajjal). He will then bring back religion and the world will see no death, suffering, sickness for 40 years (I think its 40). He will then get married and have a family and have a natural death. A few years after religion will be lost and this is when the day of judgment shall come. For in this period of time no one will mention the word God/Allah, religion would have been forgotten.

Hope this helps!

The replies in this post are great examples when people in the present try to apply their belief systems to belief systems which existed thousands of years ago. All religions from the beginning of time go through a type of syncretism. Where the previous religious systems principles are adopted into the new religious belief system, for example Islam adopted precepts from Judaism, Christianity, and the Jinn religion. In the Jinn religion there were three main Gods, one male and two female. The male God’s name was Allah.

The Jinn religion was popular in the Middle East before Islam and Christianity because of its open acceptance to gods of other regions. In ancient times the Middle East, especially the city of Mecca was at the center of the overland trade routes connecting the Mediterranean world to the Far East.

Another example of syncretism in Islam is the black rock which sits at the middle of the Grand Mosque called the Kaaba, which Muslims believe existed from the time of Adam and Eve, which during their Tawaf ritual they walk in a circle during the Hajj, however even before Islam, followers of the Jinn religion would do the same thing, because the black rock was at the same temple site, with one major difference. On top of the circle of the temple were statuettes of the many other Gods from other regions, such as Greek, Persian, Egyptian and so forth, because as I aforementioned the Jinn religion because of its global connection to the trade routes was very accepting of other religions. When Islam adopted the concept of the Tawaf ritual they tore down all the statues, and begun the belief of the rock was around in the world of Adam and Eve, in contrast the Jinn religion worshiped certain stones as magical. Another concept of syncretism in ancient religious beliefs is how Muslims believe in the virgin birth of Jesus,veneration of Mary, and consider the teachings of Jesus as holy.

Hopefully now everyone can understand the concept of syncretism. In can be found in all religions’, even in Christianity. In fact Christianity is unique in how openly previous pagan holidays are still kept intact, and even celebrated into the modern times. For example, Easter egg hunts, the Easter bunny, and the idea of Santa Claus are all ancient pagan traditions which become part of the syncretism of Christianity. What does this all have to do with the holy trinity? Well you see the Jinn religion was not unique in it’s believe in three main gods. In the ancient pre-Christian Mediterranean world, it was common in Carthage, Egypt, Rome, Greece, and all over the Mediterranean ancient belief systems that there were three main gods. Many theologians accept this as being where and how the idea of the trinity became into the Christian belief system. Other controversial concepts of syncretism can also be found in the idea of baptism, which was a concept practiced in most Mediterranean pagan religions also.

Even other examples of syncretism can be found in comparing the pre-Christian belief in the Egyptian god Horus. The Egyptian god Horus had been worshiped for centuries before Jesus, however Horus was born of a virgin, Horus was described as the only begotten son of the god Osiris, Horus mother’s name was Isis-Meri, very comparable to Miriam (now often referred to as Mary), Horus’s foster father name was Seb, (a.k.a. Jo-Seph), Horus was believed to be of royal decent, just like Christ was descended from King David. Horus mother Isis was visited by an angel before his birth, Horus’s birth was announced by the morning star, Sirius. More syncretism between Horus and Jesus can be found in how their birth dates are celebrated: Horus’s birthday was celebrated in ancient Egypt by a manger being paraded around and with a child in it representing Horus through the streets at the time of the winter solstice around December 21. Horus’s birth was announced by angels, and witnessed by shepherds. A Pharaoh tried to have Horus killed at birth, Horus was baptized at the age of 30; the person who baptized him was beheaded.

Is it such a stretch to think early Christians employed, probably even openly and unknowingly belief systems which existed prior, it was probably not even unnatural for them to do so, if syncretism can be found in all religions Christianity cannot be any different. The concept of the trinity began long before the time of Christ, with the common accepted belief in all the Mediterranean religions’ of three main gods.

One thing I cannot understand, (I describe myself as a first century red letter Christian), why do people in the present day worship Jesus, when all of the words Jesus spoke he told us to worship our Father in heaven? He not once told us to worship him, only those who followed after him made him a god. I believe in the one true God, the one that spoke, I am that I am and I do believe Jesus is my Savior, but we should do what he asked of us to do, to worship no God before the Father. And please do not reply with the googly-goosh about the trinity being all one god, I am an historian, I know and understand how syncretism works, where an older pagan belief then becomes part of the new religion. God Bless.


[edit on 21-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

reply to post by AmosGraber


Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Syncretism is a new word for me. I've never believed that Christianity 'hijacked' pagan festivals but rather not only tolerated them, enthusiastically joined in. As I understand it, Jesus loved to party!

Originally posted by Serizawa

Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by Serizawa

 

Actually you are very very wrong... Yeshua went further than just calling Himself just a mere messiah.. He called Himself "The Son of Man" who, in Daniel "sits at the right hand of the Living God, and is given a sceptre and kingdom that lasts forever," and who is told to sit at Gods right hand until He has made His enemies His footstool.. Anyone hearing someone calling themselves The Son of Man would be astonished more about that than being called just a messiah... A priest is a messiah, so is a king, so is anyone who has been given a appointment of any kind..

Read about second temple jewish society and mindset before you spout ill educated nonesense


[edit on 19-8-2010 by Yissachar1]

You crack me up! This is a forum where we share information and ideas not insult one another and force feed beliefs. The name Christ is the Greek equivalent of Messiah and in Hebrew 'Māšîaḥ'. So whos the ill educated one now?

The word originally came from Hebrew messiaḥ, “anointed”. In Judaism, the expected king of the Davidic line who would deliver Israel from foreign bondage and restore the glories of its golden age. The Greek New Testament’s translation of the term, Christos, became the accepted Christian designation and title of Jesus of Nazareth, indicative of the principal character and function of his ministry. More loosely, the term messiah denotes any redeemer figure; and the adjective messianic is used in a broad sense to refer to beliefs or theories about an eschatological improvement of the state of humanity or the world.

Yes Moshiach means annointed, but like i said it is also an appointment.. People like kings and priests were annointed to their appointments and were described also as moshiachs.. MoshiachEl (annointed God)is a different matter.. Cephas called Yeshua MoshiachEl befor His transfiguration on the mount.. However Yeshua gave Himself the Title of The Son of Man before that, and admitted to the Sanhedrin who He was before He was crucified.

The greek word Christos was a word used by pagans for their "annointed ones" and has nothing to do with the Hebrew Moshiach.. In fact the true translation of Moshiach from Hebrew is not Christ but Messiah.. All Helenized name changes served to take the Jewishness from the scriptures.

My education as a Jewish believer in Yeshua and of scripture, and my culture is not in doubt

Messiah

[edit on 22-8-2010 by Yissachar1]

Here is the Hadith to that particular event: Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0311. Anas ibn Malik (the narrator of this hadith) is generally considered reliable, but it seems a bit funny to me that all the heart-washing hadith are from him, and (unlike other Hadith) it doesn't say "Anas b. Malik reported that the Messenger of Allah (PBUH) said...", instead it says "Anas b. Malik reported that Gabriel came to the Messenger of Allah (PBUH)..", which seems odd, considering that Anas wasn't around (or even alive) during Muhammad's childhood.

Anyhow, I suppose it may be considered somewhat similar to baptism, although it'd be a bit dangerous if anyone else ever practised "tearing open the breast" .


reply to post by NumeroUnox1

Hey NumeroUnox1!

Are you claiming that Christianity (and perhaps Judaism?) practises polytheism? Or that David practised polytheism?

You provide an interesting list, but I (and those who share my view, many of them christians) can go through each and show how it doesn't show anything about Jesus claiming to be God. For example, John 1:14 (while not being Jesus speaking, but still), which would more accurately be translated as "and the Word was a god".


reply to post by AmosGraber

Hey Amos!

While I have heard of some amount of Jinn worship (or at least veneration) in Pre-Islamic Arabia, I've never heard of a specific religion dedicated to them. Could you tell me where you got this information from? Or by "Jinn Religion", do you just mean the general beliefs of the people in Mecca and Arabia at that time?

reply to post by babloyi

Originally posted by babloyi
Hey Amos!
While I have heard of some amount of Jinn worship (or at least veneration) in Pre-Islamic Arabia, I've never heard of a specific religion dedicated to them. Could you tell me where you got this information from? Or by "Jinn Religion", do you just mean the general beliefs of the people in Mecca and Arabia at that time?

Sure! Although your request made me realize I need a very better system in the organization of my books! The book where I learned much of the syncretism in relationship with the Jinn religion and Islam is called, “Ethics of World Religions” by Arnold D. Hunt, Marie T. Crotty and Robert B. Crotty, published by Greenhaven Press, Inc., San Diego, CA 1991.

After finding the book I was rereading some of the chapter on Islam, and found another example of syncretism. The Byzantium Empire used to worship the crescent moon symbol, as a form of moon worship, after the conquest of the Byzantium Empire in 1450 C.E it has been adopted by most Muslim countries as a symbol of Islam.

In addition, in rereading the chapter on Islam, it is pointed out the Jinn religion was a very ambiguous religion without any real organized priesthood. There were competitions at the time from the western northern tribes and the more sophisticated western southern tribes in Arabia. However, they did have sacred people known as kahins, who would travel around the towns sharing visions; they would chant and sing to others to what god was saying to them. Around the 5th century C.E. a tribe called Qurayesh seized the area around Mecca and built the Ka’aba or “cube”, which housed the black stone, as I already stated one of the precepts of the Jinn religion was the idea of magical stones.

This meshing of the northern Jinn beliefs mixing with the more sophisticated southern beliefs, with the ancient beliefs of Judaism and the new Christian religion was all the different mixes Muhammad grew up with, it should be no surprise he mixed concepts from all of these experiences.


[edit on 23-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

[edit on 23-8-2010 by AmosGraber]

[edit on 23-8-2010 by AmosGraber]