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The Christian Trinity and Islam.

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posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 12:52 PM
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reply to post by Serizawa
 


Thanks for that.


Unfortunately, I still do not understand. From that quote it says Jesus was preaching monotheism to the Jews and for that they turned against Him.

It doesn't make sense to me, why they would demand death for something they already believed in.

Unless I am misunderstanding the verse.

Why is the only place where Jesus did not claim divinity was the Quran?

[edit on 19-8-2010 by searching4truth]




posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 12:54 PM
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reply to post by EricD
 


It's always the same baseless accusations that have been addressed here (and everywhere else) over and over again.




posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 05:15 PM
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reply to post by oozyism
 


That link is a bunch of b.s. sorry.

There is no "Mary is god" movement, because she isn't and to she that she is heresy according to Catholicism.

Do all people believe that the Church was 100% honest in terms of the Fatima secrets? No, some of the most outspoken people acting to reveal the "true" third secret (whatever that is) are high ranking clergy.

If an apparition where to occur that contradicts anything in the Bible, the apparition is declared false (or worse demonic).

If an organized group of catholics existed, proclaiming that Mary is god, they would excommunicated, end of discussion.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by 12.21.12
I don't know but for whatever it's worth I kind of think the trinity is man woman and child. That is the source of creation, unless you are in bed with god then he would be the father or uhm I think I will just shut up.


I just so agree, everything here on Earth is male and female, father and mother, we, every living being has parents. Not only that, but look at the beauty of nature and tell me a man did that. To me, if God does not have a Wife, then God may as well not exist. It is simple logic and simple intelligence to know there are a Divine Father and a Divine Mother.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by searching4truth
 




If an apparition where to occur that contradicts anything in the Bible, the apparition is declared false (or worse demonic).


I guess you haven't read the Bible, it is filled with contradictions of its own, does that make the Bible demonic?

Think about it for a second, you have mistaken the debate we are having, it is not whether Christianity supports Marry as GOD or not, but rather, is there a group of people who believes in such a notion which is written in the Quran.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 08:10 PM
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Deleted by poster.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by EricD]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 08:29 PM
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Ok,
I got 10+ years studying all of this intensely and under going mystical direct experiences of the Divine realms. Here's my two scents....

God: Imagine an Omnipresence, everywhere, within everyone, so vast ...everywhere and yet people can't see this ...because everything including themselves is part of that Infinity.

Jesus: Born a man .......but also completely enveloped into the reality of above. No ego ....just representing and being completely animated by the above.

Spirit: Sort of an animating principle of the Divine. Like water, fog, ice. Same element but different forms.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 12:55 AM
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Originally posted by oozyism

I guess you haven't read the Bible, it is filled with contradictions of its own, does that make the Bible demonic?

Think about it for a second, you have mistaken the debate we are having, it is not whether Christianity supports Marry as GOD or not, but rather, is there a group of people who believes in such a notion which is written in the Quran.


I have read the Bible, although admittedly I am nowhere near an expert.

From I have read on this post here is my understanding of the discussion thus far, so as to clear up any confusion.

The op was attempting clarify the definition of the trinity as provided by the Quran. Some, including myself, believe the Quranic definition was Father, Mother, Son as opposed to Father, Son, Holy Spirit. From there is went into an attempt to claim Catholicism worships Mary as God, or as a God(ess).

Now, if random group of Christians, at some point in history worshiped her in this way, then that is beyond my knowledge.

However, if others are going to make the same and never ending accusations that Catholics specifically worship her in this way than I have to defend myself against false accusations.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:06 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Originally posted by halfoldman
This meant she was also born from a virgin to be free from sin.
To my surprise, Islam had propogated similar ideas before the Catholics made it dogma.
en.wikipedia.org...

To say that Mary was born "from a virgin to be free from sin" (although I think you meant just free from sin, nobody claims Mary was born from a virgin) according to Islam is silly. Islam has no concept of the Original Sin, and EVERYONE is born sinless. What Islam claims is that Mary was SINLESS, i.e. she never committed any sins. While according to christian theology this might be impossible (original sin and all that), Islam has numerous people mentioned who were sinless, including Mary and Jesus. Since there is no concept of original sin, according to Islam, technically anyone could be sinless if they never committed a sin, or if they asked forgiveness for the sins they had committed.

There were definitely groups in the past who regarded Mary as some sort of deity, and there are definitely people today who assign her veneration that is undue to any human. She is certainly used as an intercessor in Catholicism, for example.


reply to post by searching4truth
 


Originally posted by searching4truth
Unfortunately, I still do not understand. From that quote it says Jesus was preaching monotheism to the Jews and for that they turned against Him.

Are you saying that in reality Jesus WASN'T preaching monotheism?!


To answer your question, every Prophet of God has faced opposition from the people preached to. Jesus was sent to the children of Israel because they had gotten too bogged down in the word of the law, and not in the spirit of the law. An example is the parable of the Good Samaritan.


Originally posted by searching4truth
Why is the only place where Jesus did not claim divinity was the Quran?

Heh...there are a fair amount of Christians who do not accept the divinity of Jesus. There has yet to be conclusive evidence that he claimed divinity anywhere in the Bible. Even this forum has dozens of threads that address that point.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by babloyi]



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:12 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi

To say that Mary was born "from a virgin to be free from sin" (although I think you meant just free from sin, nobody claims Mary was born from a virgin) according to Islam is silly. Islam has no concept of the Original Sin, and EVERYONE is born sinless. What Islam claims is that Mary was SINLESS, i.e. she never committed any sins. While according to christian theology this might be impossible (original sin and all that), Islam has numerous people mentioned who were sinless, including Mary and Jesus. According to Islam, technically anyone could be sinless if they never committed a sin.

There were definitely groups in the past who regarded Mary as some sort of deity, and there are definitely people today who assign her veneration that is undue to any human. She is certainly used as an intercessor in Catholicism, for example.


Could you answer a question for me?

I was reading the other day how when Muhammed was a child (I believe 6 yrs old) that two angels took out his heart and cleansed it of sin in preparation for his future prophethood. Is this not similar is the concept of original sin?



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:19 AM
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reply to post by searching4truth
 

I think I know what story you are speaking about, and while I don't have any texts within reach at the moment, I'm not sure as to the authenticity of the narration you refer to (not that it wasn't from a muslim source, but that it wasn't from a verifiable authentic muslim source as researched by the hadith scholars).

Anyhow, if I recall correctly, it mentioned how Muhammad had been invited to some sinful festival, and how the angels came and washed his heart and such to remove any sins and desires that may have been there. If you gave me a bit more time, I'd be able to research it a bit more, since what I tell you now is from memory.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:33 AM
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reply to post by Yissachar1
 

this is thing that i do not get, if he is of the house of David, and is born of a virgin birth, is he not the son of god?



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:37 AM
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prophetmuhammad.muslimpad.com..." target="_blank" class="postlink">Here is what I was referring to. It wasn't the exact source I had seen previously, of course I can't find it now
.

I'll paste in the passage, otherwise just search the word heart on the page it comes right up.

Narrated Anas bin Malik:The night Allah’s Apostle was taken for a journey from the sacred mosque (of Mecca) Al-Ka’ba: Three persons came to him (in a dreamy while he was sleeping in the Sacred Mosque before the Divine Inspiration was revealed to Him. One of them said, “Which of them is he?” The middle (second) angel said, “He is the best of them.” The last (third) angle said, “Take the best of them.” Only that much happened on that night and he did not see them till they came on another night, i.e. after The Divine Inspiration was revealed to him. (Fateh-Al-Bari Page 258, Vol. 17) and he saw them, his eyes were asleep but his heart was not—-and so is the case with the prophets: their eyes sleep while their hearts do not sleep. So those angels did not talk to him till they carried him and placed him beside the well of Zam-Zam. From among them Gabriel took charge of him. Gabriel cut open (the part of his body) between his throat and the middle of his chest (heart) and took all the material out of his chest and abdomen and then washed it with Zam-Zam water with his own hands till he cleansed the inside of his body, and then a gold tray containing a gold bowl full of belief and wisdom was brought and then Gabriel stuffed his chest and throat blood vessels with it and then closed it (the chest). He then ascended with him to the heaven of the world and knocked on one of its doors.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 02:14 AM
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reply to post by searching4truth
 

There seems to be something majorly wrong (and irritating) with the current ex quote tags, involving the new scrollbars. For example, I can only read up to "Gabriel cut open (the part of his body) between his..", and there are no scrollbars for me to scroll down to see the rest of it. Anyhow, checking the link you posted (although you put http there twice, which somewhat mangled the link), along with some googling I was able to find what you mean.

I was mixing it up with another story, apparently (Muhammad going to some festival was different). Anyhow, the one you quoted occurred in his adulthood, while the one you meant from earlier I assume is the one that occurred in his childhood. For some reason it is very difficult for me to find references to this earlier one (although it probably has an associated hadith). Searching for "shaq al sadr" (meaning "incision into the chest", as this incident was called) gives only 4 results for me, the first one being an explanation as to why this story is false, and the remaining being articles denying that this incident was evidence of Muhammad having epilepsy (something apparently claimed by Muir). Go figure.....

Please don't misunderstand me, I am certainly not saying you are lying, I KNOW this tradition to exist. Perhaps it is in the Sirah - recollections of the life of the prophet - which cannot be verified or checked for authenticity, because they don't have a chain of narrators given, unlike the hadith.

In any event, this story does not occur at Muhammad's birth, but at a young age. Some versions I have found say that a "small black part was removed, this being the "tendency towards the devil" which may cause us to do evil things (although again, some of the versions I have read make no mention of this "removal of a black thing" at all). In any event, as I said, Islam does not accept the concept of "Original Sin", that man is born inherent with sin, but there is some idea that man may have a "tendency towards sin", which of course, may be overcome.

Bear in mind, all these texts are stuff I'm getting off the net (mostly from random posters in internet forums), and therefore I wouldn't take their word as gospel.



reply to post by bekod
 


Originally posted by bekod
reply to post by Yissachar1
 

this is thing that i do not get, if he is of the house of David, and is born of a virgin birth, is he not the son of god?

He may have been a son of god (as defined by him in the Bible, and defined in the OT), but I don't think this makes him a literal "Son of God". However, I think you are confusing what Yissachar meant. I believe his post was an attempt to show that "Son of Man" was something greater than even "Messiah".

[edit on 20-8-2010 by babloyi]



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 02:38 AM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Sorry, I'm apparently having posting issues
. When I reading material online the other day I had came across the story, unfortunately I didn't bookmark it since I didn't anticipate ever really discussing it
.

Unfortunately, while searching for it today all I found were a bunch of racist websites (which apparently there is no lack of).

If I come across it again I'll drop you a u2u, thanks for the effort.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 02:50 AM
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reply to post by searching4truth
 

Just in case you missed it, I edited my post while you were posting. Perhaps whatever you wished to ask is in there?



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 04:20 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by searching4truth
 


Originally posted by searching4truth
Unfortunately, I still do not understand. From that quote it says Jesus was preaching monotheism to the Jews and for that they turned against Him.

Are you saying that in reality Jesus WASN'T preaching monotheism?!


To answer your question, every Prophet of God has faced opposition from the people preached to. Jesus was sent to the children of Israel because they had gotten too bogged down in the word of the law, and not in the spirit of the law. An example is the parable of the Good Samaritan.


Originally posted by searching4truth
Why is the only place where Jesus did not claim divinity was the Quran?

Heh...there are a fair amount of Christians who do not accept the divinity of Jesus. There has yet to be conclusive evidence that he claimed divinity anywhere in the Bible. Even this forum has dozens of threads that address that point.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by babloyi]


Sorry, I missed the whole second part of your post.

First no, I was not claiming that Jesus was preaching polytheism. What I was saying is that according to the Bible, the majority of Jews turned against Him because He was speaking of His own divinity and they accused Him of blasphemy, a crime punishable by death.

Exactly what Christians do not accept the divinity of Jesus?

edit: I reread your previous post (the edit). I believe you answered it, but like I said if I find the exact source again I'll let you know.

[edit on 20-8-2010 by searching4truth]

[edit on 20-8-2010 by searching4truth]



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 04:26 AM
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reply to post by searching4truth
 

Perhaps I worded myself badly? What I mean is that many groups who call themselves "Christian" do not believe that Jesus was "God", or that Jesus was part of a trinity of God. There are several on this site itself. The topic pops up every few weeks, with both sides bible-quoting at each other.

You could probably find a few by searching for "trinity" or "jesus is god" or "jesus is not god" or "unitarian" on these forums.



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 12:26 PM
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reply to post by babloyi
 


Aha, I found the story ok let's give this another go, apparently it comes from a book called Sealed Nectar


We persisted in our request which we substantiated by our anxiety over the child catching a certain infection peculiar to Makkah.[Ibn Hisham 1/162-164] At last, we were granted our wish and the Prophet [pbuh] stayed with us until he was four or five years of age. When, as related by Anas in Sahih Muslim, Gabriel came down and ripped his chest open and took out the heart. He then extracted a blood-clot out of it and said: "That was the part of Satan in thee." And then he washed it with the water of Zamzam in a gold basin. After that the heart was joined together and restored to its place. The boys and playmates came running to his mother, i.e. his nurse, and said: "Verily, Muhammad [pbuh] has been murdered." They all rushed towards him and found him all right only his face was white. [Muslim 1/92] www.witness-pioneer.org...



I was unfamiliar with the text, so here's the wiki if anyone is interested in a synopsis wiki

I don't know if this a Sunni vs Shia thing, but it sounds like the text is considered accurate.


[edit on 20-8-2010 by searching4truth]

Edit to add: To me, and it could just be my perspective but the use of special water to cleanse the soul or person, to me sounds similar to the Christian concept of baptism

[edit on 20-8-2010 by searching4truth]



posted on Aug, 20 2010 @ 01:34 PM
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There is a member here at ATS who has claimed that in Islam, the Holy Spirit or Paraclete, is personified by Mohamed, that when Jesus said, 'after I am gone, I shall send my counsellor and comforter', He referred to Mohamed.

My understanding of the Trinity;

Abba-Amma, the Creator, the parent god-head, metaphysical love principle that encompasses both paternal and maternal love-authority.

Jesus, the (egoless) Man or Son of Man, God made flesh, the example, personification of the love-authority principle.

Holy Spirit, Emmanuel, God with us, authorised and empowered through the Resurrection and Christing of Jesus, to counsel and comfort all Humanity.

All in One, One in All.



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