The Christian Trinity and Islam.

Few Quotes from the Quran and Bible:

"People of the Book! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).

Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).

"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).

‘is this: Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’” (Mark 12:28-30).

“Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” Jesus replied: “Why do you call me good? No one is good — except God alone.” (Mark 10:17-18).

According to Isaiah 43:11, God said: “I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.” Also God said according to Isaiah 45:21-22: “Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other.”

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands.” (Acts 17:24).

reply to post by halfoldman


Read the verse, it is very clear:

5:116 And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

See how it says "God will say", meaning the future, when will GOD ask Jesus this question?

Yes, we are talking about the day of judgement (my assumption), the Quran doesn't expire until the day of judgement, that being said, we have to wait and see whether Marry the mother of Jesus will become divine in the minds of Christians one day.

By the way things are going now, it will come true, hence she is already in Churches and in Prayers. She is already divine enough. It has been a long time since Jesus Christ, and since then his message has been corrupted and transformed many times.

What makes you think it won't change again?

Jesus says in the Bible that there is one GOD, and that GOD is his GOD and everyone else's GOD. BS has been added because a random individual's testimonies in regards to Jesus Christ's message is in the Bible. That can't be right when that man never met Jesus Christ. If he never met Jesus Christ, and that man who never met Jesus Christ influences the Bible more than even people who met him, what does it tell you of the status of the Bible? And that same man is hardest to support the trinity.

So think about it.

Marry's divinity is already rooted in today's Christianity, it will grow.



[edit on 19-8-2010 by oozyism]

reply to post by babloyi

So believe in God and His messengers, and do not say, that the gods are, ‘Three’, God, Jesus and his mother.

Explanation on the Surah.
quran.com...
So this author was not under the impression that God, Jesus and Mary were the "Christian" Trinity?
Could have fooled me.




[edit on 19-8-2010 by halfoldman]

Jesus said:
To his enemies: “...you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.” (John 8:40).

“Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” (Luke 22:42).

“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46).

“Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Luke 23:46).

“And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.”

reply to post by oozyism


Excellent post. This originated from 'Mother and Child' worship.

Various Trinities:

Lebanon: BAAL, TAMMUZ, ASHTORETH.
Phoenicians: EL, BACCHUS, ASTARTE.
Babylon: BELUS, TAMMUZ, RHEA/ISHTAR.
Assyria: NINUS, HERCULES, BELTIS.
Greece: ZEUS, DIONYSUS, APHRODITE.
Rome: JUPITER, ATTIS, CYBELE/DIANA.
Egypt: RA, OSIRIS, ISIS/HATHOR.
India: VISHNU, KRISHNA, ISI/DEVAKI.
China: PAN-KU, YI, HENGO/MATSOOPO.
Mexico: TEOTL, QUETZALCOATL, COATTLICUE.
Scandinavia: ODIN, BALDER, FREG.

Apologies for the spelling mistakes if any.....LOL.

reply to post by halfoldman


Read my previous post for explanation



Also let's see some more info:

Roman Catholics believe that Mary was conceived and born without the stain of Original Sin, thereby making her sinless, perfect, and immaculate from all forms of evil

Primary among these is that, as mother of Jesus, Mary is the Mother of God (Μήτηρ Θεοῦ) and the Theotokos, literally, Birthgiver of God. This doctrine was confirmed by the First Council of Ephesus in 431. Christians of the major ancient traditions including the Catholic Church, Anglican Communion, and the Eastern Orthodox Church believe that Mary lived a sinless life, offer prayers to God through Mary and venerate her as intercessor and mother of the church. Most Protestants, however, do not follow these devotions, nor do they typically refer to her as the Mother of God or Theotokos.

According to above, she is already given a divine status, what do you think will happen in the future?

The Marry-Is-God-Catholic-Movement has already started, what do you think the out come will be?

the Catholic Church which states that Mary is God, that Mary is the Soul of the Holy Spirit.

www.remnantnewspaper.com...

I think this should rest the case?

reply to post by oozyism

Well, from my limited knowledge, here I agree, at least as far as Catholicism is concerned.
In the late 1800s Mary was credited with the Immaculate Conception.
This meant she was also born from a virgin to be free from sin.
To my surprise, Islam had propogated similar ideas before the Catholics made it dogma.
en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Serizawa
The Christian explanation of the Trinity is shortly explained with verses here: www.gotquestions.org...

So my notion so far is that the Islamic understanding of the unadvised Trinity is something that might happen in future? So Mary might replace the Holy Spirit as part of the Trinity.
Still I doubt any Christian of the past would have believed this - basically that's displacing an explanation on a prophesy.

It might have happened in pre-Abrahamic pagan faiths, but I doubt a woman will ever become part of the Christian Godhead.
So, despite a similar terminology of "Triune' or "Trinity" with father/mother/child pagan Trinities, the Christian Trinity is very different from these.
They are different roles of one male God.

Originally posted by halfoldman

but I doubt a woman will ever become part of the Christian Godhead.

Already in existence:

the Catholic Church which states that Mary is God, that Mary is the Soul of the Holy Spirit.

The link in my previous post.

reply to post by oozyism

It exists, just as your link points out, as an ancient heresy spurned by the Catholic Church.
Catholic News Watch: www.remnantnewspaper.com...
Lots of things exists, even self-appointed rival Popes.
It's not accepted however.



[edit on 19-8-2010 by halfoldman]

reply to post by halfoldman


This is something that has been around for hundreds of years and most people are unaware of it. Jesus denies the fact that his is God, he is simply a prophet/messiah. The trinity was introduced into Christianity by Paul. The trinity as i stated before consisted of Semiramis, Tammuz and Nimrod. Semiramis commanded for the worship of both her husband and son as well as herself, claiming they are both God 'the father' and God 'the son'.

Heres a link you can get more info from:

The origin of the Trinity from Paganism to Constantine

Heres a great link 'Mary Worship' From a Christian website btw.
MARY WORSHIP

“Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy! Our life, our sweetness and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping, in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious Advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this our exile show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.”

Edit: had to add the prayer.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by Serizawa]

reply to post by Serizawa

Not in the Christian Trinity, for example:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt 28:19)

It is often argued however that Mary veneration was brought in to appeal to pagan goddess worshipers (and these goddesses were indeed the females in the pagan trinities, as you mention).
Purists, and later the Protestants would therefore remove it entirely.

Yes, Christians will respect her, but mostly she is not venerated in any form outside Catholicism (and here, as yet, she's not in the Trinity).
If anything, if the Trinity followed Pagan lines she would have to be married to a god, and Joseph is hardly a god.
In fact there's scant info on Mary as a deity in Scripture itself. She doesn't say much at all.
Currently there's more interest in Mary Magdelene, since Gnostic scriptures furtively imply that she might have been Jesus's wife.



[edit on 19-8-2010 by halfoldman]

reply to post by Serizawa

Actually you are very very wrong... Yeshua went further than just calling Himself just a mere messiah.. He called Himself "The Son of Man" who, in Daniel "sits at the right hand of the Living God, and is given a sceptre and kingdom that lasts forever," and who is told to sit at Gods right hand until He has made His enemies His footstool.. Anyone hearing someone calling themselves The Son of Man would be astonished more about that than being called just a messiah... A priest is a messiah, so is a king, so is anyone who has been given a appointment of any kind..

Read about second temple jewish society and mindset before you spout ill educated nonesense


[edit on 19-8-2010 by Yissachar1]

reply to post by halfoldman


I agree with you although not all Christians have the same beliefs and with people like the pope and places like the Vatican incorporating pagan beliefs into the religion, Its soon bound to portray Mary as a 'God'. One thing I have never understood is how people are fooled into praying, bowing down and kissing the pope and his statues. I watched a clip a few years back showing some priests/Archbishops? washing the popes feet and kissing them.

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God..." -Exodus 20:4-5

reply to post by Serizawa

Yeah, that's where the conspiracies come in.
Just as people question the pagan origins of the Ka'aba.
To conspiracists it indeed all leads back to Babylon.

But so far, despite my sticking to certain points, I've found it a very fruitful discussion, and it has certainly made me look twice at texts such as Hammond's. It's actually quite liberating to hear the other possibilities, and that one doesn't have to live in such a closed-minded mindset.

As for foot-washing, that is actually practiced by Jesus in the Bible.
en.wikipedia.org...

In SA it's become somewhat of an act of atonement for apartheid eg. the washing of Rev. Frank Chikane's feet by a minister who wanted to assassinate him once. news.bbc.co.uk...

It seems that lots of people aren't very impressed by it, and I still wonder if it has some secret society meaning.


[edit on 19-8-2010 by halfoldman]

Originally posted by Yissachar1
reply to post by Serizawa

 

Actually you are very very wrong... Yeshua went further than just calling Himself just a mere messiah.. He called Himself "The Son of Man" who, in Daniel "sits at the right hand of the Living God, and is given a sceptre and kingdom that lasts forever," and who is told to sit at Gods right hand until He has made His enemies His footstool.. Anyone hearing someone calling themselves The Son of Man would be astonished more about that than being called just a messiah... A priest is a messiah, so is a king, so is anyone who has been given a appointment of any kind..

Read about second temple jewish society and mindset before you spout ill educated nonesense


[edit on 19-8-2010 by Yissachar1]

You crack me up! This is a forum where we share information and ideas not insult one another and force feed beliefs. The name Christ is the Greek equivalent of Messiah and in Hebrew 'Māšîaḥ'. So whos the ill educated one now?

The word originally came from Hebrew messiaḥ, “anointed”. In Judaism, the expected king of the Davidic line who would deliver Israel from foreign bondage and restore the glories of its golden age. The Greek New Testament’s translation of the term, Christos, became the accepted Christian designation and title of Jesus of Nazareth, indicative of the principal character and function of his ministry. More loosely, the term messiah denotes any redeemer figure; and the adjective messianic is used in a broad sense to refer to beliefs or theories about an eschatological improvement of the state of humanity or the world.

Messiah

Originally posted by halfoldman
reply to post by oozyism

 

Well, from my limited knowledge, here I agree, at least as far as Catholicism is concerned.
In the late 1800s Mary was credited with the Immaculate Conception.
This meant she was also born from a virgin to be free from sin.
To my surprise, Islam had propogated similar ideas before the Catholics made it dogma.
en.wikipedia.org...

The immaculate conception does concern Mary, in that you are correct. However, she was not born of a virgin herself. Her parents did the deed, the immaculate part comes in when the Holy Spirit cleansed her spirit of original sin while still in the womb. What this means is that God had already determined that this woman would be the vessel.

Well, I don't know about the late 1800's date, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception has been celebrated since the fifteenth century. The 1800's comes in when Pope Pius specifically defined the Catholic dogma surrounding it, however that is far from the original date.

If one our Muslim participants could answer this for me I would appreciate it.

I know that Islam, determines Jesus Christ to be a prophet. I have also been told that it is their belief that He never claimed to God, and the He tried to spread Islam.

It is also believed that He did not die on the cross, but the God lifted Him to prior to any of the horrors, so that He would not suffer.

What was His "crime" according to Islam? What did the people punished for?

Now, in Christianity He was being punished for blasphemy, for claiming God status, the Jews were outraged and called for His blood.

However, I am very curious about the interpretation in Islam, and have yet to receive a satisfactory answer. Thank you in advance.

reply to post by searching4truth


For the same reason i suppose. I haven't fully read the Quran yet. However i found this article.

He showed the miracles which he had mentioned, e.g. creation of a bird, raising the dead to life, healing the blind and leper, and giving the news of the unseen - all by Allah’s permission. He continued like that calling them to monotheism and his new Law until he was convinced that they would not believe in him. Seeing their insolence, enmity and hatred, and the arrogance of their priests and rabbis, he turned away from them and selected his apostles (from the small band that had believed in him) to be his helpers to Allah. Then the Jews rose against him with the intention to kill him.

Source

Mary is NOT considered divine in Catholicism and she is certainly NOT considered part of the trinity.

It would help your case if you actually quoted from Catholic sources if you are attempting to show a Catholic belief in the divinity of Mary.

Am I correct in that these are the reasons that you believe Catholics consider Mary divine?

1) Her image is depicted in Churches.
2) She is prayed to.
3) She is considered Theotokos.
4) Some prayer you found uses flowery language about Mary?

If that is a correct understanding of your case, I'll address each. If there is anything else, please post it as well as your source for that belief. Again, please use Catholic sources for what Catholics believe. As I'm sure you would agree, anti-Catholic sources wouldn't be inclined to offer an accurate portrayal of Catholic beliefs.

Eric