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The Christian Trinity and Islam.

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posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 01:53 AM
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The following issue has interested me for some time: the Islamic view of the Christian Trinity. This topic also seems apposite considering some of the recent Christian/Islamic debate.
I was taught that Islam was a tolerant religion that tried to bring Christianity back to a belief in one God. In that sense Islam actually wanted to save Christianity from heresy, and to bring it back to monotheism.
However, I was never taught that the Islamic view of the Christian Trinity consisted of God the father, MARY THE MOTHER and Jesus the son.

Muhammed was under the misconception that Christians worshipped the Trinity as three gods - consisting of God the Father, Mary the Mother and Jesus the Son (Surah 4:171; 5:75-76;5-119)! Muslims find this concept blasphemous (as do Christians!) and so attack the Sonship of Jesus. Yet this thought is foreign to every Christian and is completely unBiblical. Christians worship the One True God, the Almighty. Nowhere does the Bible speak of worshipping Mary. Apparently Muhammed misunderstood the Roman Catholic veneration of Mary and their title "Mother of God". Here again the Quran is found to be based on misunderstandings and innacurate sources.

Source: Peter Hammond (2005): "Slavery, Terrorism and Islam", Christian Liberty books, pp. 55-56.
So what is the source of the Trinity? Perhaps Hammond protests too much and it did change over the centuries?
I think that there is a conspiracy in education if this is all true.
We were often told that the Muslims rejected the Trinity, but we were never told that their concept of the Trinity was totally different to the Christian Trinity.


[edit on 19-8-2010 by halfoldman]




posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:01 AM
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I don't know but for whatever it's worth I kind of think the trinity is man woman and child. That is the source of creation, unless you are in bed with god then he would be the father or uhm I think I will just shut up.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:09 AM
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reply to post by 12.21.12
 

Well, especially considering that Hammond admits there were several heretical Judaic and Gnostic sects at the time perhaps it can be contextualized.
However, many books then give a false impression.
It seems that multiculturalists would like to gloss over some of the glaring differences, and to me misinformation eventually causes more division than good.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:24 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


eh...thats just politics.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:34 AM
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reply to post by 12.21.12
 

I read a book called "White Gold" (see: januarymagazine.com...) about the Corsair slavery of white Christians in North Africa in the 17th century.
The narrative is based on the writings of an actual slave who managed to escape.
He was tortured heavily until he pointed up one finger - which was the sign that he was willing to convert to Islam, and the "one God".
However, the Christian "turning Turk" or converting was never explained in terms of what rejecting the Trinity actually meant.
Perhaps in his mind he didn't convert at all, since he couldn't turn from a Trinity he never believed in .
It's actually placing some huge question marks over conversion narratives.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:44 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 

Catholic Church:



"Hail, Holy Queen, Mother of Mercy, hail, our life, our sweetness, and our hope! To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve! To thee do we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears. Turn then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us; and after this, our exile, show us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary!"


Does that sound like people are worshiping marry?



"495 ... In fact, the One whom she conceived as man by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her son according to the flesh, was none other than the Father's eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly "Mother of God" (Theotokos). [Catechism of the Catholic Church,] (p. 125)"


Through out the history of Christianity, there has been trinity which includes Jesus and the holy spirit as GODS also, there has been times when Marry is also worshiped (or there will be times), there were times when only one GOD was worshiped.

So GOD will ask Jesus in the day of judgement if he told his followers to take him, or his mother as two gods besides Allah?

We have pictures of marry in Churches where you go and pray? Who are you guys praying to? So yes, if it is that deep today, in the future Christians will fully worship marry as the mother of GOD. We have seen the history of Christianity and how it has been altered many times..



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:46 AM
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Just a thought - since the Christian Trinity is God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit I wonder whether the Islamic Trinity doesn't provide a loophole.
Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is considered unforgiveable in some Scriptural exegesis. So maybe that's why it isn't mentioned.
One can convert to Islam without rejecting the Holy Spirit, since it isn't mentioned in their rejected Trinity?
This loophole makes it less likely that potential Christian converts will martyr themselves instead of converting.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 02:56 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


The holy spirit, very interesting lol:



"They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration). Say: "The Spirit (cometh) by command of my Lord: of knowledge it is only a little that is communicated to you, (O men!)" (The Noble Quran, 17:85)"




"Raised high above ranks (or degrees), (He is) the Lord of the Throne (of Authority): by His Command doth He send the Spirit (of inspiration) to any of His servants he pleases, that it may warn (men) of the Day of Mutual Meeting,- (The Noble Quran, 40:15)"




"Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the Revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims. (The Noble Quran, 16:102)"




"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in God and the Last Day, loving those who resist God and His Apostle, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a Spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath which Rivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). God will be well pleased with them, and they with Him. They are the Party of God. Truly it is the Party of God that will achieve Felicity. (The Noble Quran, 58:22)"




"Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' (The Noble Quran, 5:110)"


The holy spirit is not a GOD, the holy spirit is simply a messenger sent by GOD.

Read it carefully, I wish I could set the margin for the page to 1.5 for easy reading, but unfortunately I can't.

Sorry, take your time for ease on the eyes.

[edit on 19-8-2010 by oozyism]

[edit on 19-8-2010 by oozyism]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 03:05 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 

Thanks for that, interesting indeed, especially in light of Hammond.

Nevertheless, as part of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit was clearly attached to the God and Jesus in the Nicene Creed (325 AD), and from the first attempt to standardize Christianity, Mary had no divinity.
www.creeds.net...




[edit on 19-8-2010 by halfoldman]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 03:11 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Before the council of nicene there was no Trinity to begin with, and the Trinitarian belief was very small.

It was a man who killed Christians for money, who pushed for the Trinity and it is that man who has influenced the Bible more than anyone else, even more than people who had met Jesus.

This man never met Jesus in his life time.

That being said, I think that will give you some interesting topic to research, in regards to which apostle I'm talking about.

in regards to Marry never being divine, we will never know, because Quran is suppose to be as it is until the day of judgement. That means we haven't seen the changes Christianity will go through in the future.

As I said now, Christians already have pictures of Marry in the Churches, a place of prayer, and already have Marry in their prayers, what do you think will happen in the next evolution of Christianity>?



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 03:47 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 

With icons of Mary, I suppose one will find many Protestant Christians who would reject that (just as we hear Sunni Muslims would reject Shiite icons).
In fact, some Christians don't even consider Catholicism "Christian".
Even Catholics would deny worshipping Mary as anything more than a saint (I suppose, not an expert here).

Currently we've seen secularism in Europe and a growth of Christian literalism (fundamentalism) spreading from the US.

I think a massive church like Catholicism will change very little, and it co-exists relatively peacefully with other faiths, so there's no great need to change the structure. There's a lot of dialogue within that structure, and it's one of the few forms where one can disagree with official positions - so I see a biggish return to that.

Perhaps there's more people who would like a kind of merging with Islam - a focus on mystecism perhaps? A lot of Western people are being confronted with this as an exotic "other", perhaps just like they were confronted with Hinduism in the 1960s.

There's certainly a move to mega-churches, rather than countless individual sects with hair-splitting interpretations.
The religions, especially their more formal, fundamentalist forms react to each other, so what happens in Islam will influence Christianity, and vice-versa.
Unfortunately, religion is used for conspiracies and divide-and-rule, so whatever happens will be guided from the top down.
I would like to see forms that can operate in a pluralistic society.
Unfortunately, right now, I would see a closing of ranks.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 03:55 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


You know what, you just pointed out one of the problems I had in the personal acceptance of Islam, why I think that not authentic (I'm not liking the wording, but its too early).

You are correct in the Quran, it defines the trinity as mother, father, son. That is not Christianity, nor is the concept of entirely separate entities.

In my mind, as in the minds of Muslims, God is all knowing. So then would He have made such a grievous error in how an entire religion was worshiping Him? I do not believe that He would.

While I personally do not accept that the Bible was written at Nicea, we do have a pretty complete record of that time. So, despite what anyone wants to argue about various sects teaching various interpretations we know exactly what was being preached in 325 and for the 300 or so years until the time of Muhammad and it was not father, mother, son.

So where did this come from? Your guess is as good as mine, however I do not believe that it came from God, more likely someone with a misconception of Christianity and a lack of understanding of the Trinity.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:13 AM
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I see no mention of Mary as being the 3rd leg of the trinity in the Quran. The verses you mention (or that were mentioned in that passage you quoted) make no mention of it. The last verse, however, I think was misnumbered by Peter Hammond. It isn't 5:119, but 5:116.

And it MIGHT give the impression that it is assumed that Mary was the third part of the trinity, but that is not the understanding of most orthodox muslims (before or now). It is talking about "shirk", the practice of claiming divinity for people or beings other than God- in this case Christ Jesus, and his mother Mary. And while Mary is certainly not considered part of the trinity, she was definitely and inarguably given some special position.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:19 AM
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Pretty interesting. All Christians know what the Trinity is. I have seen this same mistake from various writers over the years. Tells you something about a supposed Prophet.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:20 AM
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The trinity in Christianity is supposedly the Father...God (In the Quran they do not believe God has a son), the son (Jesus) and the holy spirit (???)....the trinity originated from the Babylonian church.

the origin of the Babylonian trinity was the triad of Cush (the grandson of Noah), Semiramis (his wife), and Nimrod (their son). Egyptian trinity - Amun, Re, Ptah. etc...

SOURCE

I really have no idea what you are asking or trying to prove and how this relates to Islam as they do not believe in a trinity. Another one of Christianity's pagan beliefs. I don't mean to sound harsh LOL.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:31 AM
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5:116 And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.
reply to post by babloyi
 


It does seem here that Jesus denies He or His mother should be worshipped, thus implying that the author was under the impression that Mary was worshipped erroneously by Christians along with her Son.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:32 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman

So what is the source of the Trinity?


Halfoldman,

I am currently working on a thread that is addressing this issue as well...

I believe that the roman emperor Constantine called the famous Council of Nicaea which decided the definition of the Christian deity as the Holy Trinity, God the father, God the son and God the Holy Spirit.

Arianism was the cause of this crisis within the Christian faith. the Council of Nicaea and later the council at Constantinople took away these doubts but it can be debated that this construction was rather a political construct between theologians and politicians than anything achieved by divine inspiration.

If anything it has made Christianity a more worldly institution.

Peace

[edit on 19-8-2010 by operation mindcrime]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:36 AM
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reply to post by halfoldman
 


Nope it is implying that Jesus never preached for him, nor hi mom to be worshiped, as we can see today, she is worshiped, and she is in Christian prayers and her pictures are in Churches where Christians pray.

So GOD stands correct, Jesus stands correct.

Trinity is a whole different issue.



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:46 AM
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reply to post by oozyism
 

She is not worshipped as a divinity, and was never worshipped as Jesus was. In Catholicism I think she was an intercessor, who could plead one's case to the Trinity.
Christians claim that the Trinity is in the Bible, but they would have to come and defend this.

Also to a previous post: I'm not proving anything to any religion, or trying to put anyone down (although even I probably cannot escape my cultural baggage). I'm just curious, and exposed to contradictory information.


[edit on 19-8-2010 by halfoldman]



posted on Aug, 19 2010 @ 04:47 AM
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Originally posted by halfoldman
It does seem here that Jesus denies He or His mother should be worshipped, thus implying that the author was under the impression that Mary was worshipped erroneously by Christians along with her Son.

And she was! And in some cases, still is. This isn't the same as claiming she was part of the trinity.

According to Islam, NONE deserve veneration, or being ascribed "divinity" other than God. The only thing that differentiates one person from another are their beliefs and actions, and neither of those are cause for venerating them.

EDIT AFTER SEEING YOUR POST: Yes, she certainly IS considered divine by many, including the Catholic Church. Once again, this isn't an assumption that she's part of the trinity. There is NO need for an intercessor between God an man according to the Quran. This is one of the claims that the Pagan Arabs made- that they needed their other minor gods as intercessors, because God was too far away.

Edit again: The verse I was talking about:

Surah 10:18
And they serve beside God what can neither harm them nor profit them, and they say: These are our intercessors with Allah. Say: Do you presume to inform Allah of what He knows not in the heavens and the earth? Glory be to Him, and supremely exalted is He above what they set up (with Him).


[edit on 19-8-2010 by babloyi]




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